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Posts 1033
Hamilton Ramos | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Jan 28 2021 8:52 AM

Hi KIyah:

I know you did not write to me, but I just want to comment that there may be some useful information in some counseling resources.

Maybe another way to get to that info is by the Dave Moser method:

https://blog.logos.com/how-do-you-use-logos-dave-moser/

I do think spiritual directors may find some useful info that aids in their tasks.

Peace and grace.

Posts 1516
Kiyah | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Jan 28 2021 1:25 PM

Hamilton Ramos:

Hi KIyah:

I know you did not write to me, but I just want to comment that there may be some useful information in some counseling resources.

Maybe another way to get to that info is by the Dave Moser method:

https://blog.logos.com/how-do-you-use-logos-dave-moser/

I do think spiritual directors may find some useful info that aids in their tasks.

Peace and grace.

Actually, the advent of the Counseling guide is what prompted me to create a "Pastoral Care and Counseling" collection. Here's the rule I used:

counseling,trauma,tag:(counseling,pastoralcare,psychology),subject:(grief,bereavement,psychology,counseling,chaplain,crisis,trauma,addiction,"mental health")

I probably need to create a collection specifically focused on Spiritual Direction though.

Posts 43
Rene Atchley | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Jan 28 2021 3:44 PM

Hamilton Ramos:

Rene:

Valid remarks. Many wrestle with: where is the boundary to Christian counseling? When should cases be referred to pros? and the like.

Problem is that as someone noted, not all is about mental health. Like someone mentioned in a book: mental health does not make pigs jump off a cliff...

The topic is very important one, because there are important Christian worldview issues involved:

Take the gender identity situation. Some resource in Logos mentioned that research showed that when a gland in the brain does not develop as should, such problems ensue. (maybe that is why some say "born this way").

Should that be taken as a sickness issue? what is the probable cause of the gland's underdevelopment? can we affect such? how? 

Now I have heard stories of persons with gender identity problems, that in P & C contexts, have been cured of such problem (they through the grace of God knew something was not right)... they have allegedly felt a presence depart them (maybe unclean spirit), and who knows maybe the gland was set to normal by God.

All the mental health counseling, advice, that you could try to give would be useless, unless God Himself sets the problem straight.

So part of the Christian worldview comes into the limelight, is Jesus Christ alive and well? (He is the miracle worker), and does He show up where 2 or more believers are gathered worshipping in Spirit and truth, to continue His good works?

The evidence points to the affirmative (many books in FL that study modern day miracles), so just because particular groups try to deny God's reality (He is naturally supernatural, and as we are the ones living in a broken region of His Kingdom, He can come and set things straight for the love of His elect ones), does not mean that their theological construct jibes with His reality (which is Ultimate).

Interesting topic, much needs to be further researched. Peace and grace.

Well a common boundary from my profession is when I don't know what I'm doing is a time to refer out.  While a bit vague such a principle helps to protect the client....which don't seem to be an important topic in the counseling search engine.  For example if I am not familiar with the standard understanding of gender and transgender issues as outlined in ethical/scientific guidelines of my discipline then a referral out is standard.  In terms of a counselor deciding if a client's gland is underdeveloped I'm not real sure how one goes about determining such a thing with or without prayer...or the use of a general encyclopedia entry using therapy terms 30-40 years out of date.  Certainly God, faith, and spirituality has a place in helping individuals heal from their wounds of whatever origin.  Certainly the counseling resource can be helpful as a general and severely limited option to use in the therapy process.   Each of us has to stay in our proper lanes determined by our training, education, intellectual discipline, ethical guidelines, and abilities in order to protect the wounded individuals who walk through our door.  Otherwise its about serving Mammon instead of serving God.  

Posts 5921
SineNomine | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Jan 28 2021 4:15 PM

Rene Atchley:
Each of us has to stay in our proper lanes determined by our training, education, intellectual discipline, ethical guidelines, and abilities in order to protect the wounded individuals who walk through our door.

Indeed. Using the Counseling Guide will no more make someone into a qualified counselor than the Theology Guide will make one into a capable theologian.

Please use descriptive thread titles to attract helpful posts & not waste others' time. Thanks!

Posts 1033
Hamilton Ramos | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Jan 29 2021 1:06 PM

Rene Atchley:
Certainly God, faith, and spirituality has a place in helping individuals heal from their wounds of whatever origin.  Certainly the counseling resource can be helpful as a general and severely limited option to use in the therapy process.   Each of us has to stay in our proper lanes determined by our training, education, intellectual discipline, ethical guidelines, and abilities in order to protect the wounded individuals who walk through our door.  Otherwise its about serving Mammon instead of serving God.  

So we can agree that there is a perceived or real need for counseling. I would imagine that there are some harmless advice that can be done by referring to the Bible for certain issues.

Then the mental health problems, which are the ones that can be problematic (remember the exorcism movie in which the Catholic Father was found guilty) supposedly in the movie the patient was deemed to require professional mental health treatment.

Now probably mature P & C believers can offer help in the cases where spiritual problems could have a part.

So the question is old: are we our brother's keeper? should we try to get some formal training in counseling to try to help persons?

Is there a system parallel to EMS? first aid first responders (at scene), EMT (limited intervention), Paramedics (more intricate intervention), Nurses, Doctors, and  Specialist Doctors for definitive treatment.

A similar structure for mental health would seem advisable, but how about spiritual problems? what if medical treatment does not cause any effect, and the problem persist?

Are P & C mature believers morally required to help if asked to? how about those that are social support for the person, should they have the ethical maturity to understand that some conditions require Holy Spirit involvement, and usually found in some forms of P & C ministry?

Are there legit P & C spiritual ministries (delivery, spiritual warfare, etc), and should others refer to them when appropriate? i.e. not just serving Mammon ones.

Lots of questions, few answers from the persons involved in such endeavors. If you are a therapist or counselor, what should be your grade of responsibility for not referring to a spiritual minister when the case requires so?

An old story: a woman approaches a minister in the street (recognized by the Bible he was carrying and the way dressed), and asks him to talk to her about Christ. 

Since the woman was a known prostitute in the area, the minister did not actually took the time (their regulations called for a female believer companion to be there and other procedural requirements), and kind of dismissed her telling her he would be back to do talk to her about Christ.

The minister came back with full ministry support, and ready to try to help the woman, only to find out that she had committed suicide.

Was she having a mental health episode, due to her lifestyle stress and situation? or was some form of spiritual malign influence attacking her?

Should he have reacted differently and try to help the woman right away? Was he negligent through lack of preparedness for such an episode?

Should believers in general get some basic information to try to help in dire situations, to prevent unwanted results?

Can harmless advice be given in line with Good Samaritan laws?

Question remains: are we our brother's keepers, and if so what does that entail?

The topic is very interesting, but no clear guidance is given to believers, unless the leaders are much into Care and believe in the ministry duty of all believers.

Posts 1033
Hamilton Ramos | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Jan 29 2021 3:57 PM

Kiyah:

Here's the rule I used:

counseling,trauma,tag:(counseling,pastoralcare,psychology),subject:(grief,bereavement,psychology,counseling,chaplain,crisis,trauma,addiction,"mental health")

The rule seems good to me, thanks for sharing, and looks more including than the one found in:

https://www.morethancake.org/archives/4864

Which looks like:

MyTag: Counseling

Collection: Counseling

Criteria: mytag:counseling OR subject:(counseling, psychology) OR title:(counseling, psychology)

I do not think I have come across a Spiritual Direction collection.  My unscientific way would be just to type "spiritual direction".

There seems to be many resources on the topic. An interesting one:

https://www.logos.com/product/24250/ethics-and-spiritual-care-a-guide-for-pastors-and-spiritual-directors

I wonder what is the relation between spiritual care and mental health care.

Posts 1033
Hamilton Ramos | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Jan 29 2021 4:59 PM

SineNomine:
Indeed. Using the Counseling Guide will no more make someone into a qualified counselor than the Theology Guide will make one into a capable theologian.

Conversely, does this mean that a mental health practitioner is disqualified from being a spiritual care provider?

Excerpt from L9:

Desegregation of the soul. The shepherding ministry of the church has historically drawn on both spiritual and psychological resources for the care of souls. Within the past century, these have become compartmentalized, and psychological resources have been largely separated out from the church’s ministry. Psychological care is considered the domain of professional mental health practitioners and spiritual care the domain of professional clergy. Though there can be wisdom in specialization, we believe that the segregation evident today is both unbiblical and neglectful of the history of soul care within the church. Christian providers of psychological care and Christian providers of spiritual care must rejoin their efforts and recognize their joint responsibility for a more holistic care of the soul (as a “psychospiritual whole”; see Benner 1998). Of course, our awareness of the great traditions of pastoral care does not in and of itself qualify us to be practitioners, but this awareness is a starting point for integration.

Such an integrative approach to soul care would be rooted in a biblical understanding of the nature of the soul. Benner argues convincingly for a view of the soul rooted in the theology, anthropology and psychology of Scripture, encompassing “all of our personhood”:

The soul is the meeting point of the psychological and the spiritual. This means that soul care that draws on both the best insights of modern therapeutic psychology as well as the historic Christian approaches to the care and cure of persons will never again be able to accept the artificial distinction of the psychological and spiritual. A proper understanding of the soul reunites the psychological and the spiritual and directs the activities of those who care for the souls of others in such a way that their care touches the deepest levels of people’s inner lives. (1998, p. 62)

 McRay, B. W., Yarhouse, M. A., & Butman, R. E. (2016). Modern Psychopathologies: A Comprehensive Christian Appraisal (Second Edition, pp. 26–27). Downers Grove, IL: IVP Academic: An Imprint of InterVarsity Press.

Posts 1033
Hamilton Ramos | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Jan 31 2021 12:35 PM

Doing a bit more research in some of the counseling issues, some good stuff has come up:

Excerpt from L9:

4

Deliverance as Part of the Therapeutic Process

David W. Appleby

After over thirty years and more than one thousand cases, I have learned these truisms about deliverance as part of the therapeutic process:

Demonization is much more common than most Christian professionals believe, but it is not so frequent that every problem can be ascribed to it.

Salvation, by itself, does not expel any demons present, but it does change ownership and requires that any demons obey when confronted by the new owner (Christ).

Demonic entities will lie, hide, confound and try to confuse anyone doing deliverance, but they are bound to respond truthfully when confronted in the name of Jesus Christ.

Assessment is not so much a search for symptoms as it is a review of the client’s life experience—and whether that experience may have exposed the client to demons.

Assessment must always consider the overlapping possibility of sin, psychopathology and medical disease that may be at work in the problem and in aftercare.

Deliverance should be considered when all other treatments have limited or no impact.

 Appleby, D. W. (2013). Deliverance as Part of the Therapeutic Process. In Transformative encounters: the intervention of god in christian counseling and pastoral care (p. 77). Westmont, IL: IVP Academic.

There are nice resources in the web that can help get ideas for more research in L9:

https://www.biblicalcounselingcoalition.org/browse-by-topic/

Posts 5921
SineNomine | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Jan 31 2021 5:35 PM

Hamilton Ramos:

SineNomine:
Indeed. Using the Counseling Guide will no more make someone into a qualified counselor than the Theology Guide will make one into a capable theologian.

Conversely, does this mean that a mental health practitioner is disqualified from being a spiritual care provider?

I wrote what I wrote and I meant only what I wrote.

Please use descriptive thread titles to attract helpful posts & not waste others' time. Thanks!

Posts 43
Rene Atchley | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Jan 31 2021 5:50 PM

This whole thread has clearly shown the problem(s) with using a theological doorway to understand therapeutic consideration by non licensed individuals.  I wonder if FL legal department has taken into account would be "professionals" doing therapy based on a few articles in a half baked app...things that makes me go Hmmmm.

Posts 1033
Hamilton Ramos | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Feb 1 2021 4:20 AM

SineNomine:
I wrote what I wrote and I meant only what I wrote.

I kind of get your point, education can be important, but remember that education without Holy Spirit guidance can be disastrous.

Saint Peter did not go to college, do you dismiss his ministry?

How about Jesus?

Would you receive counsel from any of them two or would you rather receive counsel from a Jungian approach trained modern practitioner based on who knows what assumptions / preconceptions [maybe naturalism, and materialism]?

What was the Bible talking about in the following verse:

1Co 14:25  the secret things of his heart become evident, and so, falling on his face, he will worship God, proclaiming, "God is truly among you!"

Many times counselors have to deal with symptoms of a more serious underlying condition (spiritual), and just dealing with symptoms will not solve the root cause of the problem.

Do most humans have "secret things of their hearts"? and if so, how is one to access such so that one can get the point of view from God to see what can be done by humans, and what can be done only by God?

Interesting topic, and I am not trying to be polemic, just looking at the topic from another angle and suggesting further research for reflection.

Posts 1033
Hamilton Ramos | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Feb 1 2021 4:33 AM

Rene Atchley:
would be "professionals" doing therapy based on a few articles in a half baked app.

So Pastors sought for counsel need to be psychiatrists?

How many of the following particular issues are actually "mental health" related?

https://www.logos.com/product/45345/hope-for-the-heart-biblical-counseling-library

I am trying to understand what is the proper procedure for Pastors that want to help persons is in accordance to some of the other views in the thread such as yours.

According to one article:

  1. Marital infidelity. Many pastors lamented the horrendous damage done to marriages and families when one or more of the spouses are not faithful.
  2. Divorce. Obviously, the first two are related. A number of pastors said that those who come to them with divorce on their minds usually have their minds made up. Counseling is either a formality or an appeasement toward a favorable divorce settlement.
  3. Sexual and physical abuse. Some pastors said this issue was the fastest-growing topic in counseling. They don’t think sexual and physical abuse is new; more victims are now willing to come forward.
  4. Mental health issues. Depression and anxiety were mentioned frequently, but others were noted such as schizophrenia and borderline personality disorder.
  5. Teen sexual issues. More teens are seeking help with issues of sexual identity, sexual pressure, and sexually transmitted diseases.
  6. Addiction. Though alcoholism is still very much an issue, a number of pastors spoke of other addictions such as heroin and other opioids.
  7. Church conflict. Church fights lead many members to counseling. Lack of church unity has far-reaching consequences.
  8. Loss of a child. This issue is a nightmare for the parents, and often requires long-term counseling. A number of pastors expressed willingness to do this counseling for the longer-term than many of the other issues.
  9. Death of a loved one. This category would include the loss of all other loved ones beyond the death of a child.
  10. Lack of forgiveness; bitterness. I had my expectations of what issues would arise before I put the question before pastors. This one surprised me, though it probably should have been expected. I guess I didn’t expect those who were bitter to seek counseling. Apparently, I was wrong.

https://churchanswers.com/blog/the-ten-most-challenging-counseling-issues-pastors-face/

Mental health is one sub category. Are you. trying to say that all should be dealt with from the mental health point of view?

How can Pastors trying to help persons (in very good faith), can be helped to be more effective at giving sound advice (Bible jibing, IAW the nature and character of God, and not violating standards of care)?

Posts 1033
Hamilton Ramos | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Feb 1 2021 6:39 AM

Rene:

You have piqued my curiosity about the topic of counseling. Since you are a trained practitioner or in training can you answer some questions for me?

How much of your methodology respond to Carl Jung's principles?

How true can the following be with respect to Mr. Jung?:

https://www.hgi.org.uk/resources/delve-our-extensive-library/interviews/mysterious-jung-his-cult-lies-he-told-and-occult

I think I read in some resource that most modern methodology is of a Jungian lean, if so can you clarify to us what is the relation of Jung's ideology to occultism?

Posts 43
Rene Atchley | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Feb 1 2021 9:41 AM

While the topic has some interest this thread seems little more than just a discussion topic fully unrelated to anything to do with Logos Counseling app.  Again brings me back to one of the problems unleashing a theological hominization of historically complex and diverse topics that are hundred(s) or thousands of years old.   

Posts 35572
Forum MVP
MJ. Smith | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Feb 1 2021 2:09 PM

Hamilton Ramos:

How much of your methodology respond to Carl Jung's principles?

How true can the following be with respect to Mr. Jung?:

https://www.hgi.org.uk/resources/delve-our-extensive-library/interviews/mysterious-jung-his-cult-lies-he-told-and-occult

I think I read in some resource that most modern methodology is of a Jungian lean, if so can you clarify to us what is the relation of Jung's ideology to occultism?

Jung is critical to the understanding of religious symbolism, mythology, ritual, perennial philosophy etc. in the same way that Durkheim and Otto are essential. But given the current catalogue, I believe it is safe to say that despite user requests Faithlife considers religious studies outside their scope and therefore outside the scope of the forums. 
OT: to the best of my knowledge, Jungian psychology is a specialty not a general practice. I remember that you and I have a different understanding of the meaning of the English word "occult". If you read Jung (yes, I own many of his works), his interest is in the symbolism of the mind which is employed in religion, the occult, perennial philosophy, et. al.

Orthodox Bishop Hilarion Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."

Posts 1033
Hamilton Ramos | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Feb 1 2021 3:49 PM

Yes MJ:

I bought some books from ex noet about Jung's writings to check what is about. From other interesting resources in Logos I kind of spot that individualism / individualization is a concept Jung brought to psychology and that seems to be problematic for some:

https://www.logos.com/product/173756/moving-beyond-individualism-in-pastoral-care-and-counseling-reflections-on-theory-theology-and-practice

I suppose some of the stuff that Jung brought to psychology may have some application, I'll have to see.

Now as you mention not all counseling / therapy streams are following Jung, so one homework is to check what other approaches there are, and what they are about. Maybe they offer better tools to get the job done.

I found two more interesting resources that seem to have something interesting to say:

https://www.logos.com/product/173181/hidden-courage-reconnecting-faith-and-character-with-mental-wellness

https://www.logos.com/product/173502/living-biblically-ten-guides-for-fulfillment-and-happiness

As usual, if it was not for robust dialogue that bounces ideas off in the forums, I would probably not have found such.

Peace and grace.

Posts 109
Scott | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Feb 1 2021 4:10 PM

First someone essentially says the
CG is useless, then says the CG is all this thread is about. No, this thread is about the relation between P&C ministry and the CG. P&C's are known for supernatural ministry (that includes deliverance). Resources, topic inclusion, etc. are among the things we are talking about from a P&C perspective. All are welcome to participate, but let's not lose sight of the fact that this thread is directed at P&C's.  

In this thread, one insinuates that their highly educated livelihood is the way, thus making the CG essentially useless. Another points out that God gave uneducated fishermen the keys to ministry, including deliverance. Psst! The key is  the Holy Spirit, not education. Thus, the CG is perfectly helpful as a supplementary tool to aid anyone moving in the ministry of the Holy Spirit.

When someone comes to you with a hurt or problem, you don't say, "What's your insurance? We need to call a psyciatrist". No, You look them in the eye and, first, love them and comfort them and speak truth and pray with them. That is counsel. That is ministry. Considering that, the CG is indeed useful to the everyday Christian. I see the CG as a tool that's going to make the body of Christ more effective in responding to issues. The CG simply gives us quicker access to resources.

Lastly, in my time, I've seen Spirit-filled children, college students, and barely literate Africans minister and counsel more effectively than many professional counselors. That, my friends,is something that makes me go, Hmmm...

I'm thankful for the CG and for all of you. I hope Logos will continue to expand it's deliverance resources and include that as a topic in the CG.

'Now the Lord is the Spirit, and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is freedom.' (2 Corinthians 3:17, NIV)

Posts 1033
Hamilton Ramos | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Feb 1 2021 4:11 PM

Rene Atchley:
fully unrelated to anything to do with Logos Counseling app. 

Your interpretation, I think the counseling module in Logos is a good step forward in the right direction, but what is more important is to develop critical thinking in the users of the same so they can do good instead of harm in their effort to help sheep.

Even though you mentioned very old resources, with obsolete information, I think there are some that may seem to have a timeless message, that gets to the heart of the matter. One such is:

https://www.logos.com/product/166973/psychobabble-the-failure-of-modern-psychology-and-the-biblical-alternative

In one aspect of the conversation you are correct: it is important for people to study well what type of approach one chooses to base therapy, and counseling, because any tainted with occultism has nothing to do with tending the true sheep of God.

And to be clear, a neat short definition of occultism:

THE TERM OCCULT IS BASED ON the Latin word occultus, meaning that which is hidden from view or covered up. Most commonly the term is applied to attempts to gain secret or forbidden information or achieve spiritual powers and control through supernatural means such as astrology, fortune telling, psychics, spiritism, kabbalah, parapsychology, witchcraft, magick, paganism, and satanism. From a christian perspective, occult describes any attempt to gain supernatural knowledge or power apart from the God of the bible.

 Hindson, E., & Caner, E. (2008). The popular encyclopedia of apologetics: surveying the evidence for the truth of christianity. Eugene, OR: Harvest House Publishers.

 

Posts 1033
Hamilton Ramos | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Feb 1 2021 4:15 PM

Scott:
First someone essentially says the
CG is useless, then says the CG is all this thread is about. No, this thread is about the relation between P&C ministry and the CG. P&C's are known for supernatural ministry (that includes deliverance). Resources, topic inclusion, etc. are among the things we are talking about from a P&C perspective. All are welcome to participate, but let's not lose sight of the fact that this thread is directed at P&C's.  

In this thread, one insinuates that their highly educated livelihood is the way, thus making the CG essentially useless. Another points out that God gave uneducated fishermen the keys to ministry, including deliverance. Psst! The key is  the Holy Spirit, not education. Thus, the CG is perfectly helpful as a supplementary tool to aid anyone moving in the ministry of the Holy Spirit.

When someone comes to you with a hurt or problem, you don't say, "What's your insurance? We need to call a psyciatrist". No, You look them in the eye and, first, love them and comfort them and speak truth and pray with them. That is counsel. That is ministry. Considering that, the CG is indeed useful to the everyday Christian. I see the CG as a tool that's going to make the body of Christ more effective in responding to issues. The CG simply gives us quicker access to resources.

Lastly, in my time, I've seen Spirit-filled children, college students, and barely literate Africans minister and counsel more effectively than many professional counselors. That, my friends,is something that makes me go, Hmmm...

I'm thankful for the CG and for all of you. I hope Logos will continue to expand it's deliverance resources and include that as a topic in the CG.

'Now the Lord is the Spirit, and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is freedom.' (2 Corinthians 3:17, NIV)

Amen brother, praise the Lord. Crystal clear. 

Peace and grace.

Posts 1033
Hamilton Ramos | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Feb 3 2021 11:17 AM

A very good collection to get informed about the counseling details:

https://www.logos.com/product/192068/christian-association-for-psychological-studies

I wonder if a resource like the Catholic Topical Index can be created taking the info in the above series and other similar as base:

"Counseling topical index" where one could look to the 500 most important keywords and see where in the books the info is.

Is there a "Catholic Topical Index" template anywhere? can one be made using Personal book builder?

Peace and grace. 

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