Ravi Cancelled

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This post has 82 Replies | 3 Followers

Posts 1501
Wild Eagle | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Feb 16 2021 12:13 PM

I believe we (buyers) should decide to buy or not to buy books. If publishers are truly follow their convictions then they should remove the book of Psalm from the Bible. David did much more shameful things, and yet Jesus is Son of David. Judah did as well much worse things and yet He is from the Tribe of Judah

"No man is greater than his prayer life. The pastor who is not praying is playing; the people who are not praying are straying." Leonard Ravenhill 

Posts 2785
Jan Krohn | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Feb 16 2021 12:51 PM

David repented of his own sin. He was heartbroken when confronted. That's the difference.

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Posts 1501
Wild Eagle | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Feb 16 2021 1:53 PM

Jan Krohn:

David repented of his own sin. He was heartbroken when confronted. That's the difference.

Do you think it would matter to our publishers?

David repented after he was exposed. He did more evil by covering things up before exposure. 

How do you know Ravi didn't repent?

"No man is greater than his prayer life. The pastor who is not praying is playing; the people who are not praying are straying." Leonard Ravenhill 

Posts 49
Erich Wong | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Feb 16 2021 2:00 PM

Just curious, did Bill Hybel's received the same kinda approach from publishers?

Posts 2785
Jan Krohn | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Feb 16 2021 3:22 PM

Wild Eagle:
David repented after he was exposed. He did more evil by covering things up before exposure. 

How do you determine which behaviour was more evil? Ravi committed sexual, emotional and spiritual abuse over decades, lied to the public and to his wife when he claimed that he had been faithful in his marriage, and made sure that Lori Anne Thompson remains under the NDA after his death. The last point is evidence that he was unrepentant to his death. Read the report, and take your time to think about the details. It's only 12 pages.

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Posts 41
Alan | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Feb 16 2021 3:26 PM

David did repent and God forgave him.  However even though God forgave David, he did not remove all the consequences of David's sins.  David paid a horrific price for his sin with Bathsheba, including losing a child and losing his kingdom.  The sin also had a lasting effect on his decedents (2 Sam 12:9-14).  Forgiveness does not mean that there should not be consequences, even severe consequences, especially for those in a position of leadership.

The matter is complicated by Ravi's passing.  Whether the decision to remove Ravi's publications, at least for a period of time, is a correct response can be debated.   But for someone who had such a public ministry to misuse his position and apparently his ministries' financial resources to facilitate and cover a pattern of sin that victimized others, requires a strong public response from the body of Christ.  In the future, Ravi’s writings may still bring spiritual insight to those who read them.  Perhaps in a similar way, I would imagine that many of the Psalms David wrote were not being used for public worship right after his adultery and the murder of Uriah become public.  

I have often greatly benefited from Ravi's ministry and this whole affair deeply saddens me. The "cancel culture" tries to silence opposing views. In this situation it is not about silencing opposing views, but how to respond as followers of Jesus to a revelation of deep hypocrisy from a very public church leader.

This situation also humbles me as I contemplate how I too might easily slip onto a wrong path.  

1 Peter 5:8  Be alert and of sober mind. Your enemy the devil prowls around like a roaring lion looking for someone to devour.

Posts 1501
Wild Eagle | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Feb 16 2021 3:50 PM

Jan Krohn:

How do you determine which behaviour was more evil? ... Read the report, and take your time to think about the details. It's only 12 pages.

I will not comment on that because conversations are getting theological and that was not my point. I think I expressed my concern about my disagreement with publishers decisions and their partiality. 

P.S: the first thing I did when I read the news was to read report. I always prefer primary sources 

"No man is greater than his prayer life. The pastor who is not praying is playing; the people who are not praying are straying." Leonard Ravenhill 

Posts 43
Rene Atchley | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Feb 16 2021 6:36 PM

DIsciple II:

Rene if you truly beliebe this is cancel culture in this instance, if you truly understand the depth of this deliberate systematic sin and believe as Christian we should continue to allow him to be put forward as someone who represents Christ then I am concerned for how you can say you honour God’s name above all. 

I hope this man before his death did confess his sin before God, I hope standing before God there is for him mercy, grace and forgiveness, that in spite of his sin his faith was genuine. For I too am a sinner no more deserving of grace, mercy and forgiveness than he. But when sun such as this exposed and a person is in a position of leadership that he was there has to be strong consequence for what matters is not this man’s name or what value we got out of his ministry but God’s name.  Rene please carefully consider whose name it is that you hallow.

Rene Atchley:

As I read along in this thread about a publisher who has, essentially, silenced the voice of an author one question remains in my mind.   How many books would remain to be published if all materials by immoral author's, sinful people, disagreeable theological perspectives, offensive ideas, different faith traditions, unholy people, and heretical ideas....just about any other reasons for theologians (loosely speaking) gets their spleen in an uproar about.   I'm thinking cancel culture has been part of Christianity far longer than when some of our political enemies came up with the idea.  

I believe that clearly, in this thread, the ugly head of righteous christian cancel culture has clearly been shown....as has been evidenced through most of the history of organized religion called Christian.  Nor am I sure that a group of people gathering on a business oriented support forum get to make decisions about who officially makes the call on who represents Christianity.  Toleration has historically not been a strength of the Christian community after the first generation of the faithful died.  Perhaps a more reasonable goal than canceling out those who we judge or disagree with is simply to let a business make their best call on what to publish given their market focus. 

Posts 43
Rene Atchley | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Feb 16 2021 6:36 PM

DIsciple II:

Rene if you truly beliebe this is cancel culture in this instance, if you truly understand the depth of this deliberate systematic sin and believe as Christian we should continue to allow him to be put forward as someone who represents Christ then I am concerned for how you can say you honour God’s name above all. 

I hope this man before his death did confess his sin before God, I hope standing before God there is for him mercy, grace and forgiveness, that in spite of his sin his faith was genuine. For I too am a sinner no more deserving of grace, mercy and forgiveness than he. But when sun such as this exposed and a person is in a position of leadership that he was there has to be strong consequence for what matters is not this man’s name or what value we got out of his ministry but God’s name.  Rene please carefully consider whose name it is that you hallow.

Rene Atchley:

As I read along in this thread about a publisher who has, essentially, silenced the voice of an author one question remains in my mind.   How many books would remain to be published if all materials by immoral author's, sinful people, disagreeable theological perspectives, offensive ideas, different faith traditions, unholy people, and heretical ideas....just about any other reasons for theologians (loosely speaking) gets their spleen in an uproar about.   I'm thinking cancel culture has been part of Christianity far longer than when some of our political enemies came up with the idea.  

I believe that clearly, in this thread, the ugly head of righteous christian cancel culture has clearly been shown....as has been evidenced through most of the history of organized religion called Christian.  Nor am I sure that a group of people gathering on a business oriented support forum get to make decisions about who officially makes the call on who represents Christianity.  Toleration has historically not been a strength of the Christian community after the first generation of the faithful died.  Perhaps a more reasonable goal than canceling out those who judge and disagree with is simply to let business make their best call based on what to produce given their market focus. 

Posts 4134
abondservant | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Feb 16 2021 7:54 PM

I have a fair number of Ravi books. I'll treat them the same as the rest of my books.Whats good, keep, whats not good, toss out.

He made a lot of mistakes, and if were honest, so have we.

I don't want to make light of his abuses. They were wrong. But this is a case of tossing the baby out with the bathwater.

How many disgusting people have been used by God?


Spurgeon writes of 1 tim 1:15 in Metropolitan Tabernacle Pulpit Volume 9 that "Paul calls himself in our text the chief of sinners. It is possible that he literally exceeded every other sinner, dared more, and sunk deeper in crime than any of his fellows among the sons of men. If so, let no man that lives despair of mercy. If the gate of heaven is wide enough for the chief of sinners to go through, then" (long story short) there is room for anyone.

I'm just glad publishing houses aren't God. For that matter, I'm glad I'm not God. Indifferent


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Posts 76
1Cor10:31 | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Feb 17 2021 5:16 AM

Is there anyone on this forum who has not struggled with persistent sin despite repeatedly repenting and despite persistently praying for God's help to dropkick the sin? If so, you're either ignorant of your sin (you have a blindspot) or your definition of sin is not as strict as in the Bible!

Posts 2710
mab | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Feb 17 2021 12:25 PM

Erich-Ayumi:
Just curious, did Bill Hybel's received the same kinda approach from publishers?

Apparently still on the shelves at CBD

The mind of man is the mill of God, not to grind chaff, but wheat. Thomas Manton | Study hard, for the well is deep, and our brains are shallow. Richard Baxter

Posts 3052
Doc B | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Feb 17 2021 1:26 PM

DMB:
Doc knew that.

Umm...psychic lately? Apparently not...I have *no idea* what the time limit is for this.

You wanna take down YOUR false attribution now (if it's not past whatever the limit is)?

My thanks to the various MVPs. Without them Logos would have died early. They were the only real help available.

Faithlife Corp. owes the MVPs free resources for life.

Posts 153
DMB | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Feb 17 2021 3:00 PM

Doc B:
You wanna take down YOUR false attribution now (if it's not past whatever the limit is)?

You're getting pretty touchy. And given your academic years, you know well a proposal. Don't play naive.

Posts 4134
abondservant | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Feb 18 2021 9:42 AM

I read a few articles about this, and at the risk of confusing sources, one of them (I think Dr White) said that the moral here is to be careful to have accountability in our ministries. We need to be under the leadership of a local church.

At the end of the day. His actions were reprehensible.

I'm not sure if they rise to the level of silencing his voice. Perhaps they did rise to that level, and perhaps we should.

L2 lvl4 (...) WORDsearch, L9

Posts 1028
David Wanat | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Feb 18 2021 10:50 AM

abondservant:

I'm not sure if they rise to the level of silencing his voice. Perhaps they did rise to that level, and perhaps we should.

I imagine that publishers want to make sure they don’t appear to be condoning or dismissing it. Sexual abuse certainly seems to rise to that level of concern.

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Posts 8037
DAL | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Feb 18 2021 12:53 PM

Very unfortunate! Read the last 5 responses on this thread: https://community.logos.com/forums/t/195000.aspx 

DAL

Posts 86
Angela Meister | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Feb 19 2021 5:29 PM

Writing what I posted on social media to the group in general: 

People are talking about things they have not read (the extensive report) as if they have. This was long. Multiple victims over a period of time. Decades. No remorse apparent to anyone even to the end. It involved misuse of ministry funds. Hiding and deception. Rape. Phone and email records and then other records destroyed. Basically gaslighting his ministry partners. Suing a victim, whose life was ruined. This has all the markings of a narcissistic sociopath. Premeditated manipulation and seduction and created states of dependency. So instead of shaming those hurt, even those who gave funds to his ministry, please just stop and let others process this appropriately. Every one of us is a sinful human being in need of a Savior. This is not the question and saying this to those hurting does not help. Every man battles lust and if this is hitting your conscience on that in any way, please get help. Don't add insult to injury to some of these conversations. This is addressed to all in general in love. ❤ Angela

Pretty much any theological system, save universalism would have a hard time reconciling that the family reported there was never a moment of repentance before his death. We need to pray for all affected. Only God knows at this point if there was any remorse.

Just a heads up that the report is somewhat explicit. It may trigger some people to read it. Mike Winger a pastor and a former domestic violence counselor did just that and offered simple commentary in an appropriate way on his YouTube channel. If you are interested you can just search both names together.

Posts 2785
Jan Krohn | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Feb 19 2021 6:02 PM

Angela Meister:
Mike Winger a pastor and a former domestic violence counselor did just that and offered simple commentary in an appropriate way on his YouTube channel. If you are interested you can just search both names together.

I can second that. Mike Winger's video on the matter is very insightful. It's much more than a commentary, as he emphasizes the steps necessary to avoid similar cases in the future.

Past IT Consultant. Past Mission Worker. Entrepreneur. Seminary Student (VIU).
Christian Debate Forum --- Auferstanden! Blog

Posts 76
1Cor10:31 | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Feb 19 2021 7:09 PM

Angela Meister:

People are talking about things they have not read (the extensive report) as if they have. This was long.

Don't assume. Especially about people you have no clue about.

Angela Meister:

Multiple victims over a period of time. Decades. No remorse apparent to anyone even to the end. It involved misuse of ministry funds. Hiding and deception. Rape. Phone and email records and then other records destroyed. Basically gaslighting his ministry partners. Suing a victim, whose life was ruined. This has all the markings of a narcissistic sociopath.

Nobody has disputed this characterization of Ravi.

Angela Meister:

please just stop and let others process this appropriately.

Just like you have a right to voice your opinion, others have a right to voice their opinion. Who gives you the right to silence others? What makes you think that you are right and others are wrong? Maybe, you need an IV of libertarianism.

Angela Meister:

Every man battles lust and if this is hitting your conscience on that in any way, please get help. Don't add insult to injury to some of these conversations. This is addressed to all in general in love. ❤ Angela

This has nothing to do with the nature of sin. I've dealt with lack of gentleness that have grieved others. I didn't know I was not gentle (that was my blindspot). I was just being honest with people. But that doesn't mean others have not been hurt. Who is to say that their hurt not is just as big as those that Ravi hurt. 

Angela Meister:

Pretty much any theological system, save universalism would have a hard time reconciling that the family reported there was never a moment of repentance before his death. We need to pray for all affected. Only God knows at this point if there was any remorse.

How do you know that Ravis' family is not protecting themselves by lying? Anyways, the only one to whom Ravi had to repent at the minimum was to God. Remember the thief on the cross next to Jesus. He didn't go ask for forgiveness from all those he hurt. What did Jesus say to him? You will be with me in paradise.

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