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Alan Klasi | Forum Activity | Posted: Tue, Feb 16 2021 8:07 PM

I'm one of the victims who owned Wordsearch and is being forced over to Logos.

Good grief!  Logos is such a cumbersome beast compared to Wordsearch. 

Why does it need to index EVERY TIME I open the app? 

Why do they have the constant, unending, always changing with every micro-move of the mouse,  suggestions on the righthand column?  It's like a squirrel on 5 Hour Energy submitted that idea.  What a distraction.

Why did they think it was a good idea to list my resources (i.e. commentaries, etc.) in a non-alphabetical order?

Why do they want to be the Photoshop of bible software?  And by that I mean, "Let's have as much going on on-screen as one can possibly take at any given time?"  The only thing missing is floating docks and maybe they don't have that yet because maybe Adobe has it copywritten?

I'd ask why to this next question but I already know the answer.  When Logos bought Wordsearch why didn't they just let it continue to be a standalone software app?  Answer: they didn't really want to buy the software, they wanted to buy the customers.

Thanks, Logos, for shutting down the ability to add to my library in Wordsearch so eventually if anyone wants to add to their library they HAVE TO DO SO through Logos.  You had the money to buy Wordsearch but you didn't have the money to run it.  Or, you didn't want to spend the money to run it (more likely).

There's a reason Wordsearch users weren't Logos users already: they didn't want this bloated pig of an app.

Finally, ( I'm sure someone will tell me that there are ways to customize this whole experience to more of my liking, but . .) Why did Logos think that I had the free time and the desire to learn a whole new bible app when I already knew a great one?  How many hours of tutorials will one need to watch to become proficient in using this?  Cuz Logos just knew for sure I'd want to spend my ample free time (not!) learning a new bible app.

To be sure: this was not so much a "for the Kingdom" purchase made by Logos, as it was a capitalistic purchase.

I haven't even looked at the prices of add-on commentaries yet, but I'm already anticipating them being more expensive.  Gotta pay for that Wordsearch acquisition somehow.

Posts 2
Alan Klasi | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Feb 16 2021 8:15 PM

Why is there no toolbar?  You know, like every other desktop app on the planet? 

Instead, you click on "Tools" and just scroll and scroll until you get to what you want.

Posts 915
Bill Anderson | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Feb 16 2021 8:29 PM

Hi Alan,

Welcome to the Faithlife forums. Even though I can tell you are frustrated, I wanted you to know you are welcome here and there are folks that would like to help.

I might suggest it would be helpful to know some details about your computer -- processor, type of permanent storage (hard disk drive or SSD), size of your hard disk drive or SSD, operating system (Windows or Mac) and amount of system RAM. It would also be helpful to know how many Logos resources you own as well. As others see this thread, they'll jump in to ask for more and possibly suggest some solutions.

Posts 33231
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MJ. Smith | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Feb 16 2021 8:58 PM

Alan Klasi:
There's a reason Wordsearch users weren't Logos users already: they didn't want this bloated pig of an app.

Well, aren't we in a cheery mood - worth mentioning because it really will be easier to learn Logos after the initial shock of the sale has worn off. Unfortunately, for those like you who thought:

Alan Klasi:
There's a reason Wordsearch users weren't Logos users already: they didn't want this bloated pig of an app.

There were not enough of you to make Wordsearch viable in the market place which is precisely why 

Alan Klasi:
Answer: they didn't really want to buy the software, they wanted to buy the customers.

Wordsearch made a choice between leaving their customers with nothing when operating systems/computers could no longer run their product (the way BibleWorks did) or to sell to a company with a viable, alternative product and allow their customers to retain a significant portion of their investment.

Alan Klasi:
Why did they think it was a good idea to list my resources (i.e. commentaries, etc.) in a non-alphabetical order?

Most of us prefer having them listed in the order of our personal priority -- those we look at all the time on the top to those we rarely need at the bottom.

Alan Klasi:
Why do they have the constant, unending, always changing with every micro-move of the mouse,  suggestions on the righthand column? 

The sensitivity of the mouse is a system function not an application setting. However, there is a significant amount of information available at the word level so one can expect visible changes as you cross words. I don't know what you have opened in the right column so It's impossible to answer. However, if it happens to be the Information Panel, that panel display information on the word level.- changing on mouse-over or chick depending on your settings.

Alan Klasi:
they didn't want this bloated pig of an app.

When you are ready to ask specific questions to learn to use this app you have so maligned, we are here to walk you through all your issues.  We may have warped sense of humor towards those who imply Logos is non-kosher ... but we will help.

Orthodox Bishop Hilarion Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."

Posts 33231
Forum MVP
MJ. Smith | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Feb 16 2021 9:02 PM

Alan Klasi:
Why is there no toolbar? 

er ,, ah... this is kind of hard to answer since the "Tools" you clicked on is on the tool bar. Are you asking why FL went with drop down selection lists for the sub-menus vs. another tool bar level? If so, when you get familiar with the number of bars you might have open in a resource or guide panel, you will see the reason for the design choice.  You may or may not agree with the design decision but it does make sense.

Orthodox Bishop Hilarion Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."

Posts 915
Bill Anderson | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Feb 16 2021 9:11 PM

Alan, meet M.J.! M.J., meet Alan.! Stick out tongue

Posts 19380
Forum MVP
Keep Smiling 4 Jesus :) | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Feb 16 2021 11:14 PM

Alan Klasi:
Why does it need to index EVERY TIME I open the app? 

Welcome Big Smile

Part of software design is indexing words in resources for fast searching. If shut down computer before indexing is done, then next application launch starts over for indexing. Once initial indexing completes, should not be annoyed by indexing when launching app.

Logos Help Center (LHC) includes:

Solid State Disk (SSD) noticeably reduces indexing annoyance.

Alan Klasi:
Why did they think it was a good idea to list my resources (i.e. commentaries, etc.) in a non-alphabetical order?

In Library (using Details View), clicking on Title sorts resources in alphabetical order. Caveat: some very common English words (A, An, The) are ignored for alphabetic title sorting.

Alan Klasi:
Good grief!  Logos is such a cumbersome beast compared to Wordsearch. 

Apologies for me not having Wordsearch since do not know of any Bible software competitor that can do Visual Filter Highlighting (combine hundreds of search results for simultaneous display), which lets me "see" nuanced range of Greek verbal expression in resources having Logos Greek Morphological tagging: (so can prayerfully ponder inspired message)

Logos Wiki Extended Tips for Highlighting and Visual Filters includes:

Alan Klasi:
Why do they want to be the Photoshop of bible software?  And by that I mean, "Let's have as much going on on-screen as one can possibly take at any given time?"

Performance tip is "less is more" => less open is more responsive (includes collapsing Guide, Information, Search, ... sections for next time opening, can click to open section when desired). Note: fast SSD noticeably reduces need to collapse sections. Part of learning is how to quickly open more tabs that are useful for current study.

Personally have changed Program Settings to open to a blank layout, which lets me choose what tab(s) to open after launching application.

Alan Klasi:
Why did Logos think that I had the free time and the desire to learn a whole new bible app when I already knew a great one? 

Thread => Wordsearch-Logos Equivalent Features may be helpful.

Thankful for many friendly forum & Faithlife discussions: have learned a lot plus have a lot to learn.

Alan Klasi:
I haven't even looked at the prices of add-on commentaries yet, but I'm already anticipating them being more expensive.  Gotta pay for that Wordsearch acquisition somehow.

Faithlife is currently profitable. Profit = Revenue - Expenses. Warning: Faithlife marketing can be a bit much at times since Revenue is needed to keep paying publishers and employees. Thankful for free software updates (usually every week has a beta release). Thankful for free resource updates (includes tagging & typographical fixes). Thankful for friendly forum users with helpful tips for purchasing: e.g. Base Packages tend to offer best discount per resource. Library Expansions have significant discounts. Thankful for dynamic pricing for many resource upgrades (so previous purchases reduce price for subsequent purchase as Faithlife goal is purchase once for use on all your personally owned devices).

Keep Smiling Smile

Posts 43
Rene Atchley | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Feb 17 2021 1:46 AM

Alan I can feel your pain with this beast.  I also share a preference for pretty much any other bible software then this bells, whistles, charts, predigested data bases fantasy land of one answer button pushing.  However, it is the beast that sleeps on the body of dead competitors that give us few if any choices in the market place.  It is important, from my own experience, with Logos that it isn't a piece of bible software.  At it's heart it's nothing more than a library search engine built on top of various levels of data basis you buy from the Faith Life company....that so often reminds us its a business (i.e. give me more of your cash).  In other words a shift in how one conceptualizes what and how a bible software is becomes necessary even to be able to have any comfort in using Logos.  

Posts 5416
David Paul | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Feb 17 2021 2:11 AM

Alan, if the FL cheerleaders didn't salve your pain with their liberal quotations from the Book of Economicus, at least know that your pain isn't a solo performance. FL and Logos have some positives, which you will learn over time if you give some time to the program, but it isn't always a smooth ride, as you've already figured out. I wish my experience with Logos was so positive that I could be a cheerleader for FL, but it hasn't been. That said, the company and community aren't always deaf to people's concerns, although it may feel like that at times. I hope you're able to work your way to a point where what the program is can work for you.

ASROCK x570 Creator, AMD R9 3950x, HyperX 64gb 3600 RAM, Asus Strix RTX 2080 ti, 2tb m.2 Seagate Firecuda SSD (x2) ...and other mechano-digital happiness.

"The Unbelievable Work...believe it or not."

Posts 116
Darrell Tan | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Feb 17 2021 2:29 AM

Hello Alan. I understand your unhappiness at Wordsearch no longer being continued.

Alan Klasi:

Good grief!  Logos is such a cumbersome beast compared to Wordsearch. 

Why does it need to index EVERY TIME I open the app? 

Yes, I agree Logos is indeed 'heavier' and bothersome. I have found it irritating. You can reduce the indexing frequency by turning updates/downloads to manual. Whenever there are new updates or downloads, Logos indexes them.

Alternatively, you may try the web app https://app.logos.com/  instead.

You can also continue using Wordsearch with your existing resources.

Alan Klasi:

Why do they want to be the Photoshop of bible software?

There is a lot that Logos can do, and although I don't exploit that, it is a platform that can grow with more complex skills and needs.

Alan Klasi:

When Logos bought Wordsearch why didn't they just let it continue to be a standalone software app?

To be truthful, Wordsearch was only working well on Windows. Wordsearch had been unable to provide a Catalina-compatible version for Mac users for many months. Their mobile apps were also lagging.

Alan Klasi:

To be sure: this was not so much a "for the Kingdom" purchase made by Logos, as it was a capitalistic purchase.

To be fair, Lifeway wasn't a charity either.

Posts 428
DMB | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Feb 17 2021 4:32 AM

Alan Klasi:
Why did they think it was a good idea to list my resources (i.e. commentaries, etc.) in a non-alphabetical order?

Ha. That is so funny. It's one big reason I took the Logos upgrade off-ramp at version 7. What a crazy idea to mix them all up. They do it on their web site too .... saves me money, but then there's the dentist.

But Rene got it right. After all the cutsiness, it's an expensive book of lists, automated for the post-Christian Christian.

Posts 35
Greg | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Feb 17 2021 6:56 AM

Hi Alan,

1. It really helped me to download the paper user-created user manual, and print it and put it into a loose leaf binder, created by a user and available at this link.  I've added post-it notes to find helpful pages.

2. The next most important thing is to install an SSD (solid state drive) in your computer  for around $100, or buy a new computer with an SSD, or have MicroCenter or Best Buy computer, or another reputable computer store install and SSD and re-install windows and your programs onto the SSD.  Installation requires some computer skills and time but you can get others to do it for you if you are not interested in learning how to do it yourself.  Most people just buy a new computer with an SSD.  A lot of software these days runs best on an SSD, and eventually we will all have SSDs in our computers to keep up with modern software.  I have a Western Digital SSD that I bought from Best Buy.  I had to find a bracket on Amazon to install it because Best Buy does not stock brackets.

3. Then learn how to change your Layout, make your own custom layout and start with a simple layout, and as you learn how more tabs work, you can decide if you want to add them.  Close or remove anything you don't understand.  Declutter at first.  Go into Layouts and choose a simple layout as your default Layout.

The Layout selection and customization icon looks like this

4. I close the "information" tab that you seem to be referring to, that searches for words that you hover over, because like you I find it too distracting.  I instead dragged and dropped it into my top toolbar, and thus added it as an icon on my toolbar to open whenever I want it.

Below is a copy of my custom layout I use for everyday Bible Reading. 

I keep changing my mind on what I want and decluttering what I don't want or understand yet.

Right now I have a lot of Icons for tools and guides, but I first started with few icons until I learned how to use each tool and guide.

I currently have a lot of Bible versions in tabs to compare, but I don't switch away from the ESV often so I'll probably eventually de-clutter my tabs in my custom Layout and only open those Bible version when needed.

See all the tiny icons on the top toolbar.  I only use them when I need them.  And I only add them by dragging them to the top toolbar, after I know what they are and how they work.  Otherwise it's overwhelming

5.  Then once you are armed with these basics, start watching the training videos by Logos, which have a wealth of information.  YOu have to start someplace digging in to learn the software, but it's worth it in the end.  Keep chipping away and remember God is Sovereign and full of grace and love for you even when you don't understand.  Come back to the forum often.  We love to help!

Posts 2723
LogosEmployee
Andrew Batishko | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Feb 17 2021 7:06 AM

Alan Klasi:
Why does it need to index EVERY TIME I open the app? 

I can think of a few possible reasons:

  1. The application hasn't yet finished indexing when you shut down your computer. This will force it to start over from scratch when you start up again.
  2. You haven't yet finished downloading resources. Newly downloaded resources will need to be indexed.
  3. An updated version of some resources have been downloaded. Faithlife almost always releases resource updates every two weeks. If you only run every couple weeks, then you are going to see indexing every time you run as resource updates get downloaded.
  4. The indexer is crashing. This would mean no index was created, which would mean you aren't getting search results, or the search results you are getting appear in the wrong place. Tech support can assist with this problem.

Alan Klasi:
Why do they have the constant, unending, always changing with every micro-move of the mouse,  suggestions on the righthand column?

I think you are talking about the Information panel. You can change this so that it only updates when you click on a word, rather than hover. This is done using the panel menu, which is the vertical line of three dots in the upper right corner of the panel. I suspect you are getting to this layout by typing a passage in the Go box at the top of the window. If you really don't like the information panel, you can customize the Passage Study home page layout and remove the Information panel entirely from the layout. Check out the "Custom Homepage Layouts" video on this page: https://support.logos.com/hc/en-us/articles/360019103211-Logos-Feature-Training-Videos

Alan Klasi:
Why did they think it was a good idea to list my resources (i.e. commentaries, etc.) in a non-alphabetical order?

There are a variety of reasons, depending on where in the application you are talking about (more details would help). In some cases, it's a prioritized list (which you can adjust by setting custom priorities). In other places the sorting can be changed. In other places, it may be a bug.

Alan Klasi:
Why do they want to be the Photoshop of bible software?  And by that I mean, "Let's have as much going on on-screen as one can possibly take at any given time?"

Layouts can generally be customized to display the information that is important to you. If you provide some specific details, such as a screenshot, and a list of things you don't want to see, there may be ways to make adjustments.

Alan Klasi:

Why is there no toolbar?  You know, like every other desktop app on the planet? 

Instead, you click on "Tools" and just scroll and scroll until you get to what you want.

You can right click on a frequently accessed item in the list of tools and choose to pin it to the top of the list for easier access. You can also resize the popup using the handle in the bottom corner to make this a larger size that lets you see more at once if desired.

In addition, you can drag tools, panels, and generally many things into the area to the right of the tools menu in order to create a shortcut. In this way, you can create your own custom toolbar.

Andrew Batishko | Faithlife software developer

Posts 19380
Forum MVP
Keep Smiling 4 Jesus :) | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Feb 17 2021 10:32 AM

Greg:
4. I close the "information" tab that you seem to be referring to, that searches for words that you hover over, because like you I find it too distracting.  I instead dragged and dropped it into my top toolbar, and thus added it as an icon on my toolbar to open whenever I want it.

Personally find Hover in Information Tool to usually be a bit too much so have changed to Update on Click:

Like dragging Information Tool from Shortcut Bar (Faithlife's name for 'top toolbar') to open where desired, which includes Tab width.

Keep Smiling Smile

Posts 35
Greg | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Feb 17 2021 6:03 PM

Yes,   Keep Smiling 4 Jesus,

that's another good option.

It's always a good idea to start with a simple layout and functionality and then add more when you are ready

Posts 8321
DAL | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Feb 18 2021 6:53 AM

Bill Anderson:

Alan, meet M.J.! M.J., meet Alan.! Stick out tongue

😂😂😁

Posts 158
Steven Veach | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Feb 19 2021 1:12 PM

Alan Klasi:

I'm one of the victims who owned Wordsearch and is being forced over to Logos.

Good grief!  Logos is such a cumbersome beast compared to Wordsearch. 

Alan, I feel your pain. Though I was fortunate enough to make the move to Logos voluntarily. I can't imagine what it must be like to be forced into it. I came to Logos via TheWord Bible Software. I LOVED that program since I stumbled onto it years ago. It was very difficult for me to abandon it for a commercial program. But, I had to be honest with myself, that my studies had simply grown out of the limitations TW5 had. And they were hard coded limitations, never to be fixed in an update. 

Unfortunately, I went with Accordance before Logos and was that a HUGE mistake! $500+ later and I basically had a program on my laptop that would crash 3 out of every 5 times I launched it. The Tech Support was hostile, always tried to push me off onto their forum to get answers to questions and the most used response I got from staff was, "Well, you really can't do that with Accordance." Super frustrating!

So that really lightened my move to Logos. After all that misery with an expensive program that simply wouldn't work, how could Logos be any worse. And, in comparison, it's 100 times better. It is, for the most part, a stable program that actually launches when I click the icon at least 9 out of 10 times (that's pretty good, right)? It also has many (most actually) of the features I could not get in TW5. Some features I didn't even know existed or that I would want.  

But it is very hard to deny it is a cumbersome monster, VERY similar to Photoshop (IMO). When I used PS it was out of necessity. It simply did tasks that Paint and other programs could not do. For me Logos is the same.  

I've had issues with the indexing (locking up the program when trying to use it) and I do not prefer the slow response I sometimes get from the Info pane or exegetical guide. Yet, despite these frustrations, it has some really great features that I needed. 

Alan Klasi:

I haven't even looked at the prices of add-on commentaries yet, but I'm already anticipating them being more expensive.  Gotta pay for that Wordsearch acquisition somehow.

This is, by far, my biggest complaint of Logos and FL. The ridiculous price of commentaries. I get that affordability is completely relative. I also realize that there are probably many more people than I can to admit exist on this earth who would not think twice about dropping $10,000 on Bible software. But, hey, if you got it, what else are you going to spend it on? You can't take it with you and, what are you going to do, waste it at the casino (big in my area), wine, women, and song? 

But why does Logos insist on pricing out people who cannot afford the price of a car for program on a computer? 

I will say, Logos does have all of the commentary titles that I used in TW5. And they are, for the most part, down priced when compared to WBC or NIC, or ICC ($2000 for a commentary set? Really? I have no interest in putting your children through college for you). But, if I were to replace my TW5 lineup on Logos, it would still cost me around $600. Just for commentaries. That is ridiculous! 

FL is supposed to be serving the Church. Yes, I realize they need to make a profit. But, there is no harm in putting together an actually functional base package that has several free commentaries in it for us "less fortunate" (translated CHEAP!). I doubt it would affect your bottom line at all.

.............

I personally have never used Wordsearch before so I can't compare. All I can say is Logos does have an adjustment period and the CS and TS people have so far been WAY nicer and much more approachable than those at Accordance. Plus, Logos actually launched this morning when I turned my laptop on, and who doesn't want a program that actually works? Enough said, right?

Posts 220
Fabian | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Feb 19 2021 1:32 PM

Yes there was a time Accordance crashed a lot, but this has gone and more features are added.

There is a beta channel for TW6. Your preferred search engine will find it. There are 9 releases since 20. Dez. 2020. So he is active.

Posts 316
MWW | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Feb 19 2021 1:42 PM

Steven Veach:
This is, by far, my biggest complaint of Logos and FL. The ridiculous price of commentaries

Just my 2 cents but... any tradesman does what he can to acquire the tools he needs. However, it can and will require both patience and diligence to acquire then in an affordable manner. The secret is in learning how to buy Logos resources. I have most of the major commentary sets and I did not pay all that much for them. If you look through the various levels of all the library packages when they are on sale you can find some amazing values. Sometimes there are commentary sets that are incredibly cheap. As you buy packages other packages become less expensive because of dynamic pricing. I have bought some things that were just too inexpensive to pass on. Also, if you follow the forums you can be alerted to great deals when they are available. The other thing I have done is to take advantage of the payment plans, especially for larger purchases. 

Posts 316
MWW | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Feb 19 2021 1:42 PM

Steven Veach:
This is, by far, my biggest complaint of Logos and FL. The ridiculous price of commentaries

Just my 2 cents but... any tradesman does what he can to acquire the tools he needs. However, it can and will require both patience and diligence to acquire then in an affordable manner. The secret is in learning how to buy Logos resources. I have most of the major commentary sets and I did not pay all that much for them. If you look through the various levels of all the library packages when they are on sale you can find some amazing values. Sometimes there are commentary sets that are incredibly cheap. As you buy packages other packages become less expensive because of dynamic pricing. I have bought some things that were just too inexpensive to pass on. Also, if you follow the forums you can be alerted to great deals when they are available. The other thing I have done is to take advantage of the payment plans, especially for larger purchases. 

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