Why do Verbumites pay the same as Logosians for a lesser product

Page 2 of 3 (52 items) < Previous 1 2 3 Next >
This post has 51 Replies | 0 Followers

Posts 2269
Mark | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Mar 16 2021 2:48 PM

SineNomine:
Most Catholics who might buy Verbum would never buy non-Catholic Bible/theology study software/resources. Almost no Catholics in a position to recommend Verbum to other Catholics--parish priests, diocesan bishops, theology professors, etc.--would ever publicly or widely endorse non-Catholic Bible/theology study software/resources, even if they themselves were personally using them. In addition, most relevant Catholic organizations, including publishers and post-secondary institutions, are unlikely to support/work with non-Catholic Bible/theology study software/resource providers.

So much for ecumenicalism.

I still support MJ's op

Posts 36094
Forum MVP
MJ. Smith | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Mar 16 2021 2:51 PM

My personal opinion is that it is ridiculous for Faithlife to have two versions of the software to maintain -- increased costs make that ridiculous. However, it is reasonable for Faithlife to market the same code as three products - Evangelical - Catholic - and academic. Evangelical has one set of defaults priorities, canon, reading plans, guide sections and is marketed as Logos; Catholic has a different set and is marketed as Verbum; Academic/Ecumenical has everything and allows the user to set source of priorities and is marketed as Faithlife Academic. One software package = lower maintenance and development cost; marketing options keeps the easily irritated on both side blissfully ignorant.

What I don't like is being second fiddle.

Orthodox Bishop Hilarion Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."

Posts 1452
David Wanat | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Mar 16 2021 5:27 PM

Mark:

So much for ecumenicalism.

I still support MJ's op

Nothing non-ecumenical about it. It stands to reason that people want to use the software according to their beliefs. As such, they probably wouldn’t invest in books outside of them. So, it does them a bit of a disservice to be given less for their money.

WIN 11 i7 9750H, RTX 2060, 16GB RAM, 1TB SSD | iPad Air 3
Verbum 9 Ultimate

Posts 6005
Simon’s Brother | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Mar 16 2021 7:15 PM

MJ. Smith:


What I don't like is being second fiddle.



Well somebody is stomping their feet now. FWIW I respect your right to raise this issue and put your case forward.

I just wonder if these means now you understand what is feels like, are you going to be less judgemental of those who express the same sort of feelings about different issues with FL ? Or are you going to tell them it’s FL’s product and they can do what they like with it and leading on from that charge what they like? 
 
But as I said I support your right to call it out. I just hope it changes the way you respond to others in the future who feel like they are playing second fiddle over the issues that are important to them. All customers deserve it be able to express the highs and lows of their experience with FL.

Posts 36094
Forum MVP
MJ. Smith | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Mar 16 2021 7:20 PM

DIsciple II:
I just wonder if these means now you understand what is feels like, are you going to be less judgemental of those who express the same sort of feelings about different issues with FL ? Or are you going to tell them it’s FL’s product and they can do what they like with it and leading on from that charge what they like? 

Big Smile I don't fall for the "Have you quit hitting your wife" question form

BTW - people who know me in person, know that people naturally confide in me (and my son) precisely because we are not judgmental. I can provide humorous stories starting with the dorm peer counselor waking my roommate and I at 3 in the morning because she needed someone to talk to ...

Orthodox Bishop Hilarion Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."

Posts 46
Martin Wetzel | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Mar 17 2021 2:42 AM

Mark:
So much for ecumenicalism.

I think, its also the other way round: FL/Logos would loose evangelical customers, if a 'united' logos/verbum project would have some catholic touch. So it may be a reasonable decision to have two distict marketing enviroments.

Posts 6063
SineNomine | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Mar 17 2021 7:46 AM

Mark:
So much for ecumenicalism.

It's really not a matter of ecumenism. Or, if it is, it's a matter of accurately recognizing that there are very deep and very important differences between the Catholic faith and (e.g.) evangelical Protestantism.

As I noted in the post you are responding to, it is a complicated matter, but a lot of it is Catholics who have the care of souls not wanting to recommend books and related resources that have very different understandings of the Gospel than they have to Catholics who know very little about the Catholic faith, and most Catholics who are interested in learning more about their own faith and related matters already knowing (or soon learning) that non-Catholic Christians see things very differently in many respects. (As a former Protestant, I also know very well that most Protestant ministers and other persons of influence would never think of directing Protestants who don't know a lot about their own faith to Catholic Bible/theology resources.)

Once Catholics know their faith well, or while they are in environments where they have knowledgeable Catholic teaches/guides, such as graduate schools and seminaries, they will often start intentionally making more use of non-Catholic resources, especially ones recommended by Catholics they know and trust. (Two examples of such resources would be William Barclay's commentary set, long recommended by the late Abp. Fulton J. Sheen, and the Commentary on the New Testament Use of the Old Testament, recommended by Scott Hahn and others.)

Martin Wetzel:
Mark:
So much for ecumenicalism.

I think, its also the other way round: FL/Logos would loose evangelical customers, if a 'united' logos/verbum project would have some catholic touch. So it may be a reasonable decision to have two distict marketing enviroments.

I think you're probably right. Faithlife already takes some criticism on the forums when evangelicals (and others) find deuterocanonical books in their Bible searches or see a whole bunch of Catholic books for sale on Logos.com when all they want are Protestant ones.

MJ. Smith:
it is reasonable for Faithlife to market the same code as three products - Evangelical - Catholic - and academic. Evangelical has one set of defaults priorities, canon, reading plans, guide sections and is marketed as Logos; Catholic has a different set and is marketed as Verbum; Academic/Ecumenical has everything and allows the user to set source of priorities and is marketed as Faithlife Academic. One software package = lower maintenance and development cost; marketing options keeps the easily irritated on both side blissfully ignorant.

What I don't like is being second fiddle.

I substantially agree, although I don't presently care very much about whether there are two products or three.

"God commands you to pray, but He forbids you to worry." - The Curé d'Ars.

Posts 1928
Ken McGuire | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Mar 17 2021 9:44 AM

SineNomine:
Relevant resource from Faithlife here: Martin Luther: Catholic Critical Analysis and Praise

Thank you for the recommendation.I do hope that what I said about Roman Catholics and Luther was at least recognizable to you Roman Catholics.

But while I do value Roman Catholic contributions to Luther Studies - and expect to read more of it in my life, I am much more interested in trying to get a handle on current Roman Catholic theology in general. For better or worse, Luther was educated in Nominalism - and the ideas he criticized were those of his teachers and how those teachers read figures like Aquinas - and this has not been the dominant self-understanding of Rome for centuries. And so after some time with various Fathers, I am more interested in the survey you recommended earlier - Tracey Rowland's Catholic Theology, so I can better treat Rome with the respect of being serious theologians - a respect many Roman Catholics give to Luther.

And as for the Logos v. Verbum topic... I know enough about software development that if Faithlife wants to be able to successfully manage everything, they need to have a great deal of shared code between the two. And obviously Roman Catholics are a large enough of a potential market to justify special library packages - and have taught enough in various (Lutheran) parishes to understand the need for base packages that are compatible with your theology. I understand that different groups read the bible differently - and so would prioritize different features.

That said, it has seemed odd to me that Verbum is out on its own, and the Eastern Orthodox packages are part of Logos itself. But even as a Lutheran, I have seen enough American Anti-catholicism so that I can see more than a bit of wisdom for Faithlife to have different brandings. As much as I want to talk across the fence, good fences do sometimes make good neighbors.

The Gospel is not ... a "new law," on the contrary, ... a "new life." - William Julius Mann

L8 Anglican, Lutheran and Orthodox Silver, Reformed Starter, Academic Essentials

L7 Lutheran Gold, Anglican Bronze

Posts 6063
SineNomine | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Mar 17 2021 11:26 AM

Ken McGuire:

I do hope that what I said about Roman Catholics and Luther was at least recognizable to you Roman Catholics.

It is to me (although I disfavour the term "Roman Catholic").

Ken McGuire:
For better or worse, Luther was educated in Nominalism - and the ideas he criticized were those of his teachers and how those teachers read figures like Aquinas - and this has not been the dominant self-understanding of Rome for centuries.

Nominalism has never been the dominant self-understanding of Rome as such, although nominalism (thank you, Ockham) was quite popular for a time, during which Luther was educated.

Ken McGuire:
And so after some time with various Fathers, I am more interested in the survey you recommended earlier - Tracey Rowland's Catholic Theology, so I can better treat Rome with the respect of being serious theologians - a respect many Roman Catholics give to Luther.

Yes

Ken McGuire:
That said, it has seemed odd to me that Verbum is out on its own, and the Eastern Orthodox packages are part of Logos itself.

I think that if there were a lot more English-speaking Orthodox Christians, they would both expect and have their own third brand. But I am much less qualified to speak for them on this point than I am for Catholics, or even Protestants.

Ken McGuire:
As much as I want to talk across the fence, good fences do sometimes make good neighbors.

Indeed. And one can buy most of the Protestant Bile/theology stuff Faithlife offers on Verbum.com and most of the Catholic stuff it offers on Logos.com, so I think that works.

"God commands you to pray, but He forbids you to worry." - The Curé d'Ars.

Posts 312
hastaenuntius | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Apr 1 2021 2:25 AM

MJ. Smith:

My personal opinion is that it is ridiculous for Faithlife to have two versions of the software to maintain -- increased costs make that ridiculous. However, it is reasonable for Faithlife to market the same code as three products - Evangelical - Catholic - and academic. Evangelical has one set of defaults priorities, canon, reading plans, guide sections and is marketed as Logos; Catholic has a different set and is marketed as Verbum; Academic/Ecumenical has everything and allows the user to set source of priorities and is marketed as Faithlife Academic. One software package = lower maintenance and development cost; marketing options keeps the easily irritated on both side blissfully ignorant.

What I don't like is being second fiddle.

I think a trefold software like that could be a good idea! I'd like to have the wider canon in ressources and functions (that's why I bought packages from the Verbum line of Academics), but don't really  need that much popes and saints Big Smile 

Posts 5594
David Paul | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Apr 1 2021 2:46 AM

I remember having a negative reaction to the creation of Verbum--both the discrimination and the chasm bugged me--but I do get the reason for it. There are significant differences, not to mention plenty of historical animosity. I've gotten to the place where I accept the current situation and am fine with it.

However, I do have a question. Is there anything that prevents a person from dl'ing and running both versions on the same system? If the answer is no, is there a real problem? I run L3 and L5 or 6 on my older computer simultaneously, and find that there are certain benefits from having two apps running together. Yes, I know they are genetically different programs. Still, is that not an option with Verbum and Logos? If it is, I assume it's because they are so similar to each other...which (if so) makes me wonder why such similarity isn't even more similar (if you get my drift).

ASROCK x570 Creator, AMD R9 3950x, HyperX 64gb 3600 RAM, Asus Strix RTX 2080 ti, 2tb m.2 Seagate Firecuda SSD (x2) ...and other mechano-digital happiness.

"The Unbelievable Work...believe it or not."

Posts 25981
Forum MVP
Graham Criddle | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Apr 1 2021 3:11 AM

David Paul:
. Is there anything that prevents a person from dl'ing and running both versions on the same system?

No - a number of people on the forums are doing this

David Paul:
f the answer is no, is there a real problem?

The only issue I am aware of is disk space as each one requires its own download of resources etc - they are not shared.

Posts 36094
Forum MVP
MJ. Smith | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Apr 1 2021 3:22 AM

Martin Wetzel:
s, if a 'united' logos/verbum project would have some catholic touch

Faithlife got a dose of the evangelical reaction when for a short time there was an option to define the canon in the program settings. It brought out the worst of a small number of users of Logos ... but my observation was that the issue was not theological, it was much more how much diversity the individuals had experienced and how open they were to experience it. My very conservative, rural, fundamentalist parents in their 90's loved the diversity of their urban retirement home - excited to tell us about their newest discovery from the caregiver from Burkina Faso or the religion of their Armenian dinner mate ... these Logosians were the polar opposites of my parents.

Separate marketing - yes. Separate development is a ridiculous increase in cost most likely derived from not understanding how much of a continuum their market is.

Orthodox Bishop Hilarion Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."

Posts 36094
Forum MVP
MJ. Smith | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Apr 1 2021 3:34 AM

JT (alabama24):
The same is true with the "on this day in history" feature.

But at the moment we do have it ... I amuse myself by observing how recent history appears to be ... we've been told there will be a difference in content but I haven't seen it yet.

Orthodox Bishop Hilarion Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."

Posts 36094
Forum MVP
MJ. Smith | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Apr 1 2021 3:46 AM

David Wanat:
It stands to reason that people want to use the software according to their beliefs. As such, they probably wouldn’t invest in books outside of them.

Given the advice of my parish priest --> for Bible studies buy from Lutheran publishers, for liturgy but from Anglican and Orthodox publishers, for theology buy from Catholic publishers ... yes, there is a large slice of Catholics that are more concerned tags than content. I am actually more concerned with Orthodox in the recent diaspora needing a software to call their own ... they already depend heavily on websites and ebooks. I wish Faithlife would step up to that plate but finding the right intermediary is problematic.

Orthodox Bishop Hilarion Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."

Posts 36094
Forum MVP
MJ. Smith | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Apr 1 2021 4:00 AM

David Paul:
Is there anything that prevents a person from dl'ing and running both versions on the same system?

No, I do it all the time - one in beta, one in production. However, there are certain items e.g. the Passage Guide that is actually changed by opening in Verbum after creating in Logos that I have to remember not to do. And there are many forum questions that I don't bother to answer because it requires switching which application I have up. Yes, I can run them simultaneously if I close my browser, screen capture, and word processor. But I simply don't think I should have to run both for basic functions, especially when I know it increases the software development costs. I have no problem with switching apps to find differences in default priorities, etc.

Orthodox Bishop Hilarion Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."

Posts 193
Kevin S. Coy | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Apr 1 2021 4:13 AM

MJ. Smith:

JT (alabama24):
The same is true with the "on this day in history" feature.

But at the moment we do have it ... I amuse myself by observing how recent history appears to be ... we've been told there will be a difference in content but I haven't seen it yet.

I don't have it and I'm V9 Platinum.  How do you have it?

KSC

“The greatest single cause of atheism...is Christians: who acknowledge Jesus with their lips, walk out the door, and deny Him by their lifestyle. That is what an unbelieving world simply finds unbelievable.” Brennan Marshall

Posts 1452
David Wanat | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Apr 1 2021 1:06 PM

MJ. Smith:

David Wanat:
It stands to reason that people want to use the software according to their beliefs. As such, they probably wouldn’t invest in books outside of them.

Given the advice of my parish priest --> for Bible studies buy from Lutheran publishers, for liturgy but from Anglican and Orthodox publishers, for theology buy from Catholic publishers ... yes, there is a large slice of Catholics that are more concerned tags than content. I am actually more concerned with Orthodox in the recent diaspora needing a software to call their own ... they already depend heavily on websites and ebooks. I wish Faithlife would step up to that plate but finding the right intermediary is problematic.

I don’t think of it as a tag issue. I see it as people looking for more insights into their own beliefs. What you quoted should be interpreted in that light.

I do use the Verbum, Orthodox, and Anglican sets. I picked up a lot of the other packages under the 50% discount for L8 mainly for the ability to read the actual words of the early Protestant founders.

WIN 11 i7 9750H, RTX 2060, 16GB RAM, 1TB SSD | iPad Air 3
Verbum 9 Ultimate

Posts 36094
Forum MVP
MJ. Smith | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Apr 1 2021 3:08 PM

Kevin S. Coy:
I don't have it and I'm V9 Platinum.  How do you have it?

I turned it on in the home page:

 Err 1

Orthodox Bishop Hilarion Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."

Posts 36094
Forum MVP
MJ. Smith | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Apr 1 2021 3:23 PM

David Wanat:
I don’t think of it as a tag issue. I see it as people looking for more insights into their own beliefs.

I dare you to find anything written by an Orthodox author on liturgical theology - or liturgy - that is different from Catholic beliefs. In some cases we use identical liturgical books and borrow catechisms. With the possible except of interpretations of Paul on grace, how much do you have to strain to find something in a Lutheran Bible commentary that differs from a Catholic one? One of the strengths of Logos is that it allows us to build a library based on the quality of the scholarship rather than the denominational tag.

Orthodox Bishop Hilarion Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."

Page 2 of 3 (52 items) < Previous 1 2 3 Next > | RSS