NAS 2020 and the Importance of Communicating with the Customer

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MJ. Smith | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Jun 22 2021 7:09 PM

Beloved Amodeo:
I would point out the obvious, the price which telegraphed that RI function would likely be absent.

Or perhaps that fact that the product page did not list the reverse interlinear? That should have made it clear that the RI function WOULD BE absent. Sorry that I am not more sympathetic with the  disappointment. Once I have the Jerusalem Bible which is broadly used for lectionaries and have a reverse interlinear on it, Douay-Rheims, and the JPS I promise to be more sympathetic.

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DMB | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Jun 22 2021 7:22 PM

This is exactly what George prophesied as a sign of the end-time (of greek knowledgability). Logosians would blindly reach for their RI's, demanding any usable Bible include its 'cheat-sheets'.  If only George were still with us.

Smiling, Kevin.

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David Paul | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Jun 22 2021 8:28 PM

DMB:

This is exactly what George prophesied as a sign of the end-time (of greek knowledgability). Logosians would blindly reach for their RI's, demanding any usable Bible include its 'cheat-sheets'.  If only George were still with us.

George gave me the impression that he felt infants should be tossed into the deep end of the pool and the results would be ideal. That never made much sense to me. Still, I'm going to riff off George's ol' rag: People need to get off their figurative duffs and start using the LHI & LGNTI instead of RIs. RIs almost make my skin crawl. Unlike George, I think OL interlinears do serve a useful function. At the least, they serve as a translation into English. Much more, they are (rather, the expectation is that they are) hyperliteral. Using the LHI & LGNTI allows users to see the natural syntax of the OL, which is totally lost in any RI. While I understand George's concern about interlinears being a crutch, I feel they are more akin to training wheels. Those who are lazy will stay lazy, and those who wish to develop proficiency will do so with time. George's beef was that some people would just assume "knowledge" and therefore "understanding" simply because there was a perception of "equivalence" produced in interlinears. One way of stating his concern is that interlinears will inevitably bring out the Dunning-Kruger in many users. The fact is, as with any leveraging tool (table saw, nail gun, pistol, light saber), attempting use without training will likely result in as much carnage to oneself and others as any expected utility. RIs, unlike real OL interliners, are much more likely to feed into and elicit carnage in the hands of the undisciplined. If you don't (wish to) consider yourself undisciplined, you should be using real OL interlinears. If you don't have LHI & LGNTI, you should commit to making them your next Logos purchase.

That said, no user should just unquestioningly accept the info and data found in any resource. Early on, you may not be able to discern the quality and accuracy of a given tool, but with time you should be able to recognize when even a resource like LHI or LGNTI has made questionable decisions in its translations. Use multiple tools and get multiple perspectives.

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MJ. Smith | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Jun 22 2021 9:12 PM

For those who don't remember George ...

George Somsel:

Cliff Schroeder:

George Somsel:
BTW, MJ:  I don't hate interlinears -- I find them intellectually repugnant.  Stick out tongue

 

I'm curious George,(no...with all your might...don't go there) why are interlinears so intellectually reprehensible?  That's not a rhetorical question.  I've heard the same rumblings from others, yet I've never seen anyone delineate the basis for their loathing,  Am I missing something?  Again, it's a serious question; is there something regarding interlinears that a neophyte Greek student should be aware of?

Thanks George!

Cliff

No, you're not Curious George, I am.  (Sorry, the Devil made me do it) 

Consider what happens when you use an interlinear.  Do you bother to investigate any word which you don't know?  I'd wager that the answer is "No" 99% of the time (perhaps more).  So what do you do?  You take the gloss that the parallel translation gives right before your eyes.  That is no way to learn the language.  It simply serves to fool the user into thinking that he is actually gaining some benefit from reading the original language.  What he is really doing is simply reading an English translation and comparing it with the original.  In other words, it's a game of "Let's pretend" -- Let's pretend we really are gaining something profound by using a translation tied to the original language.  Does its simple presence there confer any benefit?  What you are really reading is an English translation.  It is an exercise in fooling one's self.

EDIT:  The use of an interlinear will actually RETARD an acquisition of the original language rather than promote it so, especially if you are attempting to learn the language, avoid it like the plague it is.

EDIT2:  If you must have a "pony" (which is what a translation is called when attempting to read an ancient document), I suggest that you place it UNDERNEATH the original and look at it only when you're really "stuck."

Orthodox Bishop Hilarion Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."

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Harry Hahne | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Jun 22 2021 9:34 PM

MJ. Smith:
perhaps that fact that the product page did not list the reverse interlinear? That should have made it clear that the RI function WOULD BE absent.

I ordered the NASB2020 knowing that it was not going to contain all of the tags of the NASB1995. So while I am disappointed, I am not upset.

However, I understand why there would  be confusion. The product page for the 2020 edition (https://www.logos.com/product/198302/the-new-american-standard-bible-2020-update) and the 1995 edition (https://www.logos.com/product/308/the-new-american-standard-bible-1995-update) both refer to the resource as a "Logos Research Edition." The 2020 product page has the same boilerplate about the benefits of the Logos Research Edition as the 1995 edition:

In the Logos edition, this volume is enhanced by amazing functionality. Important terms link to dictionaries, encyclopedias, and a wealth of other resources in your digital library. Perform powerful searches to find exactly what you’re looking for. Take the discussion with you using Overview tablet and mobile apps. With Logos Bible Software, the most efficient and comprehensive research tools are in one place, so you get the most out of your study.

So my question is, what does a "Logos Research Edition" mean for this type of product?

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MJ. Smith | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Jun 22 2021 9:49 PM

Harry Hahne:
So my question is, what does a "Logos Research Edition" mean for this type of product?

While my objections are more often the lack of milestones, I have learned to translate "Logos Research Edition" to mean "I will find something that is tagged" ... Sorry, FL is so inconsistent in so many areas that I tend to be cynical when assign meaning to their marketing phrases.

Orthodox Bishop Hilarion Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."

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David Paul | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Jun 23 2021 3:21 AM

Harry Hahne:
So my question is, what does a "Logos Research Edition" mean for this type of product?

It's produced for Logos and you can use it for research?? Geeked

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JT (alabama24) | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Jun 23 2021 7:03 AM

Harry Hahne:
So my question is, what does a "Logos Research Edition" mean for this type of product?

Interesting question. Who knows!

However, it is likely that an RI will be coming. Date TBD. The use of the RI, however, always comes as a second purchase... So the RI functionality doesn't make the resource a "research" edition. 

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NB.Mick | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Jun 23 2021 7:26 AM

Harry Hahne:
So my question is, what does a "Logos Research Edition" mean for this type of product?

It is tagged. It has an index. 

I can only infer from those who belittle the NASB 2020 as an eBook that they have gotten so used to the plethora of Logos functionality that they can't see it anymore. In fact there are a three-digit number of English language bibles in Logos, I think exactly 24 of those have a Reverse Interlinear for at least the NT. So the RI (which will come someday) isn't what makes a bible a Logos Research Edition bible in Logos, it's the index and tagging. People might try to compare with a bible in Kindle, to understand the difference. Or with a real eBook Edition bible in Logos, like The Voice ( https://ebooks.faithlife.com/product/51584/the-voice-bible-step-into-the-story-of-scripture )

Looking into the information shows the difference in index and search fields (the ones showing in The Voice are auto-generated).

That's how it looks in resource view, noting that locating to a verse (and thus, scrolling along with other bibles and with bible commentaries in a Set, or being part of a multi-resource pane etc.pp) is only possible due to milestone tagging which gives the index - and in the background allows syncing with differently bible-indexed resources, as well as being able to be found in bible searches, being a result in a guide etc pp all is happening for the NASB 2020 because of its index, and won't work for The Voice as it's an eBook only. 

Simply right-clicking in the NASB 2020 as opposed to an eBook bible (compare the red boxes!) will show the difference, noting that Lookup (double-click or via the right-click menu - amber in the screenshot) will not pick bible dictionaries, but "normal" dictionaries.

Users of The Voice probably would beg to have the functionality of NASB 2020

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DMB | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Jun 23 2021 8:14 AM

David Paul:
Unlike George, I think OL interlinears do serve a useful function.

Imagine a french writing, subsequently translated to english. But the french-iness is so occupying, that instead of learning french, one carefully places the little french words below the english words. I think the French (just guessing) might view the exercise as a bit ludicrous, since it completely loses (and looses) the french-iness of the writing.

But I agree, OL interlinears are useful for quick lookups. I'd never assign intelligence to my syriac-english glossing. I always feel embarrassed to even try.

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Lew Worthington | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Jun 23 2021 10:03 AM

NB.Mick:

It is tagged. It has an index....

That's well said, NB, and very helpful. Thanks.

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Bruce Dunning | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Jun 23 2021 10:40 AM

NB.Mick - That's one of the most thorough explanations I've ever heard explaining the differences between Bibles. Well done!

I hope many people will read it carefully and take note.

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JT (alabama24) | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Jun 23 2021 11:00 AM

Bruce Dunning:
NB.Mick - That's one of the most thorough explanations I've ever heard explaining the differences between Bibles. Well done!

Yes Agreed! Smile

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Keep Smiling 4 Jesus :) | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Jun 23 2021 11:19 AM

NB.Mick:
In fact there are a three-digit number of English language bibles in Logos, I think exactly 24 of those have a Reverse Interlinear for at least the NT.

Logos Wiki => Reverse-Interlinear/Interlinear Bibles includes:

Logos Wiki also has => Bible Translation Spectrum

Keep Smiling Smile

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Beloved Amodeo | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Jun 23 2021 3:07 PM

I have it from a reliable source within FL that a RI is planned for NASB2020 and it is a priority. I will not speculate on when this will happen. Good News!

Meanwhile, Jesus kept on growing wiser and more mature, and in favor with God and his fellow man.

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Leo Wee Fah | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Jun 23 2021 3:43 PM

JT (alabama24):

Bruce Dunning:
NB.Mick - That's one of the most thorough explanations I've ever heard explaining the differences between Bibles. Well done!

Yes Agreed! Smile

NB. Mick, thanks for the excellent explanation!YesYes

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Ken F Hill | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Jun 23 2021 5:34 PM
MJ. Smith:

Beloved Amodeo:
I would point out the obvious, the price which telegraphed that RI function would likely be absent.

Or perhaps that fact that the product page did not list the reverse interlinear? That should have made it clear that the RI function WOULD BE absent. ...

I'm confused.

I just checked the product pages for both 1995 and 2020.  Near the bottoms they each have a section called "Benefits of Logos Edition."  The text is almost exactly the same for each book.  Nowhere on either page is "reverse" found except when someone, in the 2020 comments, asked "Is this tagged for reverse interlinear?".

Maybe there's another product page that only power users know about?  Or do the sales pages contain codes indicating RI or no-RI without using real words? 

I got the 2020 and don't intend to get a refund.  I'm just hoping more functionality will be added sometime, like RI and propositional outlines.

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JT (alabama24) | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Jun 23 2021 7:27 PM

Ken F Hill:
Near the bottoms they each have a section called "Benefits of Logos Edition."  The text is almost exactly the same for each book.

That is because the "reverse interlinear" is a different and distinct resource. 

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Ken F Hill | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Jun 23 2021 7:57 PM

Thanks.  Does a reverse interlinear automatically mean it will have visual filters and propositional outlines?

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