ὁράω vs. εἶδον lemma searches in Logos

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Posts 23
Paul Weir | Forum Activity | Posted: Tue, Mar 30 2021 4:41 AM

When I learned NT Greek in Seminary I was taught that εἶδον was the aorist "principle part" of the verb ὁράω. But it seems that Logos treats them as two separate lemmas. Can someone explain that to me?

For a comparison, the aorist principle part of ἔρχομαι is ἦλθον and yet Logos doesn't give a separate lemma for ἔρχομαι and another for ἦλθον. It treats ἦλθον as I would expect it to - as the aorist form of ἔρχομαι.

The way this affects me is if I am trying to search for lemma:ὁράω expecting that it will include its aorist form, εἶδον along with all of its other forms. But it doesn't. In fact, to search for εἶδον with any other tense besides aorist (lemma:εἶδον@V[^A]) yields 0 results, as I would expect since the verb is the aorist form of ὁράω.

Are there other verbs that are treated like this in Logos where the present form is a different lemma than the aorist form?

Posts 23
Paul Weir | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Mar 30 2021 4:49 AM

Here's another interesting aspect of this.

I can search for the aorist of ὁράω (lemma:ὁράω@VA) and get 24 results.

I can search for the middle or passive aorist of ὁράω (lemma:ὁράω@VA[MP]) and get the same 24 results.

But when I search for the aorist active of ὁράω (lemma:ὁράω@VAA) I get 0 results. I think that's because the aorist active form of ὁράω has been separated off as its own lemma in Logos.

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Rick Brannan (Faithlife) | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Mar 30 2021 6:39 AM

For lemmatization we essentially follow BDAG, which has a specific entry for ειδον.

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Posts 23
Paul Weir | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Apr 1 2021 5:09 AM

Thank you, Rick.

Maybe the lemma: search is not what I need in this instance then. But does there exist in Logos a way for me to find with another kind of search every instance of ὁράω, even it's aorist active form εἶδον? Or am I going to need to consult BDAG before I am confident that I can find every form of a particular verb?

In BibleWorks a simple search for ὁράω would also find εἶδον. That's what I've been used to.

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SineNomine | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Apr 1 2021 6:13 AM

Doesn't ὁράω OR εἶδον work?

Posts 23
Paul Weir | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Apr 1 2021 6:33 AM

It would. The key would be that I would need to know that a seperate form exists in order for it to work. In the case of these two verbs, I am now aware of this situation. But if I was not aware I would potentially be missing numerous instances of the word unless I had the time/wherewithal to consult BDAG.

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Keep Smiling 4 Jesus :) | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Apr 1 2021 1:10 PM

Paul Weir:
But does there exist in Logos a way for me to find with another kind of search every instance of ὁράω, even it's aorist active form εἶδον?

<Root = lbs/el/οραω>

94B4 Bible Search SBLGNT Root Oraw

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Posts 23
Paul Weir | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Apr 2 2021 5:08 AM

Thank you for that idea. And it's helpful to some extent but gives quite a bit more than I need.

I'm starting to feel like a difficult customer here and I'm sorry for that. But with that root search is also included words like προοραω and φρουρεω which I wouldn't have any interest in if I'm simply looking for all forms of only the verb οραω.

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MJ. Smith | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Apr 2 2021 1:27 PM

<Lemma = lbs/el/ὁράω>, <Lemma = lbs/el/εἶδον> is the search argument that finds both.

Like any dictionary/lexicon you have to look where the author(s) of the dictionary put it and from the etymology, they appear to be historical separate:

Err 2
No, you are not a difficult customer - we're simply peers trying to help you use Logos ... and interesting questions force us to learn the application better. But when your professor taught you to treat the two as a single lemma, he did you a disservice by not also teaching you that his was only one perspective -- that other philologists and lexicologists would give you other perspectives.

Orthodox Bishop Hilarion Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."

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Keep Smiling 4 Jesus :) | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Apr 2 2021 2:50 PM

Paul Weir:
Thank you for that idea. And it's helpful to some extent but gives quite a bit more than I need.

One way to refine root search is intersection with verbs. Morph Search: <Root = lbs/el/οραω> INTERSECTS @V

Bible, Basic, or Morph Search: <Root = lbs/el/οραω> INTERSECTS <LogosMorphGr ~ V???????>

94B4 Search Root Oraw Verbs

Paul Weir:
I'm starting to feel like a difficult customer here and I'm sorry for that. But with that root search is also included words like προοραω and φρουρεω which I wouldn't have any interest in if I'm simply looking for all forms of only the verb οραω

MJ. Smith:
No, you are not a difficult customer - we're simply peers trying to help you use Logos ... and interesting questions force us to learn the application better. But when your professor taught you to treat the two as a single lemma, he did you a disservice by not also teaching you that his was only one perspective -- that other philologists and lexicologists would give you other perspectives.

+1 Yes for learning application better. Thankful for many friendly forum and Faithlife discussions: have learned a lot plus have a lot to learn Big Smile

MJ. Smith:
<Lemma = lbs/el/ὁράω>, <Lemma = lbs/el/εἶδον> is the search argument that finds both.

Changing comma to OR causes search result color highlighting change:

<Lemma = lbs/el/ὁράω> OR <Lemma = lbs/el/εἶδον>

94B4 Search Lemma Oraw Eidon

Morph Search refinement is searching for Aorist tenses: (learned ὁράω also has a first aorist form)

(<Lemma = lbs/el/ὁράω> OR <Lemma = lbs/el/εἶδον>) INTERSECTS @VA

94B4 Morph Search Lemma Oraw Eidon Aorist

FWIW: Verb root search can also be further refined to removed uninteresting word(s):

(<Root = lbs/el/οραω> INTERSECTS <LogosMorphGr ~ V???????>) NOT INTERSECTS (<Lemma = lbs/el/προοράω>,<Lemma = lbs/el/φρουρέω>)

Searching for "second aorist" found a variety of resources. Also searched for:

εἶδον WITHIN {Headword ὁράω}

ὁράω WITHIN {Headword εἶδον}

94B4 Search Second Aorist Eidon Oraw

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