New store button in Logos 9.5 beta 1

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This post has 74 Replies | 6 Followers

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Graham Criddle | Forum Activity | Posted: Wed, Apr 21 2021 1:13 AM

As per the release notes, Logos 9.5 beta 1 has:

Toolbar

  • Added a new Store button to the Toolbar next to the “Close All” button.

I think I understand why this has been done but I don't think it is a good idea.

I purchase resources primarily through the Logos.com website and don't expect to do so from within the app itself - I see a purchase activity and a study activity as different. 

And so it is adding something to the interface that will be of no real value to me.

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MJ. Smith | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Apr 21 2021 1:15 AM

I don't like it's placement given the normal width of my window...it needs to be in the sections that gets squeezed out in narrowing the window.

Orthodox Bishop Hilarion Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."

Posts 19279
Rosie Perera | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Apr 21 2021 2:14 AM

I agree. For a product for which people have already poured so much money into resources, having a button in our face to invite us to spend more money is not very classy. It's one thing to have searches that turn up books which might be useful offer an opportunity to buy them, or to have the lock icons in the Lexham Research Commentaries with links to purchase those resources. It would be OK to have the Store command on a menu (probably best on the three dots menu, near "Use Logos Online"). But don't clutter the Toolbar with a Store button, please.

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Levi Durfey | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Apr 21 2021 4:55 AM

Graham Criddle:

I think I understand why this has been done but I don't think it is a good idea.

I purchase resources primarily through the Logos.com website and don't expect to do so from within the app itself - I see a purchase activity and a study activity as different. 

I agree! Having the store icon on the toolbar is a bad idea. The toolbar is already crowded, especially if one is on a laptop. I visit the website to purchase books, I don't use the built-in store. Please, please, don't add more clutter to the toolbar.

Posts 1452
Myke Harbuck | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Apr 21 2021 5:34 AM

Graham Criddle:

As per the release notes, Logos 9.5 beta 1 has:

Toolbar

  • Added a new Store button to the Toolbar next to the “Close All” button.

I think I understand why this has been done but I don't think it is a good idea.

I purchase resources primarily through the Logos.com website and don't expect to do so from within the app itself - I see a purchase activity and a study activity as different.

Completely agree. I was actually coming to post a new thread to say this myself when I saw this thread. There are already several ways to access or purchase locked resources inside the app. And in those scenarios, we're provided with resources relevant to our activity at the moment. A general store button on the toolbar serves no real value in my opinion, and wastes very valuable real estate space on the toolbar.

Please reconsider this change.

Thanks.

Myke Harbuck
Lead Pastor, www.ByronCity.Church
Adjunct Professor, Georgia Military College

Posts 2348
GaoLu | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Apr 21 2021 6:35 AM

The real estate is too valuable to me to absorb tool bar space with a "sales" icon I will never use for that purpose. I am quite sure that everyone with Logos knows their way to the store when they want to go there. If it must be there, at least let it squeeze out as MJ says--I don't need it there at all costs.

Posts 1562
PL | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Apr 21 2021 7:38 AM

I agree with everyone's sentiment here.

Faithlife, please remove or relocate the Store icon as suggested above.

Posts 263
Michael | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Apr 21 2021 7:45 AM

I agree that if the button is unable to be hidden or bumped off when my own icons are added then this new "sales" icon is taking up invaluable space.  I will add my own data point in saying I would never buy anything advertised through the app and would consider it overstepping the marketing bounds if the button cannot be hidden or removed.

If and when I want to purchase or view sales, I will do it through the website.  I don't want advertising in my face when I'm trying to read and study the word.  It's one of the main reasons I don't use the homepage at all.  

I hope Faithlife is listening to this feedback and gives some options for those already heavily invested in the system.

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Phil Gons (Faithlife) | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Apr 21 2021 8:34 AM

Thanks for your feedback. But I'd like to ask that you give it some time and consider that it may be a significant help to other users (and, indirectly, for you, too, as we continue to grow and can invest in making Logos better for everyone).

Desktop in-app purchasing has increased 5x since we introduced the Store tab in the Library, which tells me that some users really appreciate the convenience and contextual nature of finding and buying a book without leaving the app. The ability to shop for individual resources by their metadata is something powerful that can't be replicated on Logos.com. It's a real service to users that more people need to know about and experience.

In-app purchasing in desktop applications may not be the norm (though we did it in Libronix two decades ago!). But it is the norm in modern mobile and web applications. There's a move toward eliminating the gap between apps and stores. It's hard to find a modern mobile app that doesn't have prominent, integrated in-app purchasing.

There was quite a kerfuffle about the changes we made to the About Logos panel a few years ago, but people have mostly gotten used to it and its proven to be an effect tool for driving upgrades. I expect the same outcome here.

Posts 5552
SineNomine | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Apr 21 2021 8:37 AM

I don't like the new button at all and I really want to perma-hide mine.

At the same time, the number of people I know who use Logos/Verbum and whose degree of technological competency is sufficiently low that a button of this sort would be beneficial for them is non-zero, so I get what Faithlife is going for. I just think that the non-beta version needs to be better. A two item right click dropdown menu with "Go to store" and "Hide store button" (with a corresponding toggle in Program Settings for it so that it could also be turned back on as desired) would solve my problem.

EDIT: This post written before seeing Phil's post above.

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Graham Criddle | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Apr 21 2021 8:44 AM

Phil Gons (Faithlife):
Desktop in-app purchasing has increased 5x since we introduced the Store tab in the Library, which tells me that some users really appreciate the convenience and contextual nature of finding and buying a book without leaving the app.

That's a fascinating stat Phil - thanks for sharing.

Posts 448
DMB | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Apr 21 2021 9:14 AM

Phil Gons (Faithlife):

Thanks for your feedback. But I'd like to ask that you give it some time and consider that it may be a significant help to other users (and, indirectly, for you, too, as we continue to grow and can invest in making Logos better for everyone).

Desktop in-app purchasing has increased 5x since we introduced the Store tab in the Library, which tells me that some users really appreciate the convenience and contextual nature of finding and buying a book without leaving the app. The ability to shop for individual resources by their metadata is something powerful that can't be replicated on Logos.com. It's a real service to users that more people need to know about and experience.

In-app purchasing in desktop applications may not be the norm (though we did it in Libronix two decades ago!). But it is the norm in modern mobile and web applications. There's a move toward eliminating the gap between apps and stores. It's hard to find a modern mobile app that doesn't have prominent, integrated in-app purchasing.

There was quite a kerfuffle about the changes we made to the About Logos panel a few years ago, but people have mostly gotten used to it and its proven to be an effect tool for driving upgrades. I expect the same outcome here.

Well, if Libby did it (she had railroading too!), then it's ok! (love these exclamation points).

As a very minor point, I notice your reasoning is Walmart and Amazon. Might have missed some 'Christians' who don't want merchandising in their Bible study. Granted, a tiny percentage. Popup ads targeted to the verse under study may work good too. Banners maybe. 

Back to Logos7. Gets better and better! Smiling.

Posts 657
Gordon Jones | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Apr 21 2021 9:31 AM

Phil Gons (Faithlife):

...some users really appreciate the convenience and contextual nature of finding and buying a book without leaving the app. The ability to shop for individual resources by their metadata is something powerful that can't be replicated on Logos.com.

Hi Phil, I have no doubt that this is correct and I can certainly see benefits to users. Nonetheless, please note the not-unreasonable requests for user control over where and whether to place the Store tab.

Posts 263
Michael | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Apr 21 2021 9:38 AM

Gordon Jones:

Phil Gons (Faithlife):

...some users really appreciate the convenience and contextual nature of finding and buying a book without leaving the app. The ability to shop for individual resources by their metadata is something powerful that can't be replicated on Logos.com.

Hi Phil, I have no doubt that this is correct and I can certainly see benefits to users. Nonetheless, please note the not-unreasonable requests for user control over where and whether to place the Store tab.

I agree with Gordon.  I'm not against FL adding the button.  I'd just like the option to hide it or have shortcuts be able to bump it off if I need the invaluable toolbar space.

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MJ. Smith | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Apr 21 2021 11:54 AM

Please note my concern was not with the existence of the button but with its placement. It should not interfere with the functional icons when using a narrower window ... my Logos/Verbum is usually allocated a little over half my screen.

Orthodox Bishop Hilarion Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."

Posts 286
James Hudson | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Apr 21 2021 12:04 PM

MJ. Smith:

Please note my concern was not with the existence of the button but with its placement. It should not interfere with the functional icons when using a narrower window ... my Logos/Verbum is usually allocated a little over half my screen.

I absolutely agree (120%) - there is so LITTLE real estate on the screen - I've written much about this already - why not save space rather than clutter it. Please, Please, Please remove from the main UI.

Put it in a menu somewhere if you must.

Please don't WASTE space - especially as we can't yet have icons for menus etc!

Thanks for listening!!!

Posts 14
Paul | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Apr 21 2021 12:23 PM

As much of the concern is taking up valuable screen space, Logos can easily save a little bit of space by using the Logos logo as the home button.

See Faithlife Feeback: https://feedback.faithlife.com/boards/logos-desktop-app/posts/use-the-logos-logo-on-top-left-as-the-home-button 

And just in case there is an informal poll, I also do not like having the store icon. At least having the option of removing it would be preferable.

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Phil Gons (Faithlife) | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Apr 21 2021 12:40 PM

James Hudson:
especially as we can't yet have icons for menus etc!

See Tip: Save Shortcuts Space with Folders and Unicode Icons.

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Phil Gons (Faithlife) | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Apr 21 2021 12:52 PM

Gordon Jones:
Nonetheless, please note the not-unreasonable requests for user control over where and whether to place the Store tab.

Noted. We're discussing what that could look like. Two possible approaches:

  1. Different collapsing behavior that prioritizes more important items as you run out of space
  2. Ability to customize the toolbar by hiding certain items

If #2, should we do it based on aggregate usage? Anything fewer than x% of users use should be hideable? Everything should be hideable based on individual user preferences? By what principles would we allow hiding the Store button but not the Sync button, the Profile menu, the Close All button, the Home button, or the Logos logo? I can see users in many cases saying they would like to be able to hide these because they never use them. If we do come up with something here, I'd like it to be principled and consistent rather than making a quick reaction to a change that might end up being okay after a few weeks of adjustment.

Thanks for voicing your feedback. We'll keep listening.

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Phil Gons (Faithlife) | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Apr 21 2021 12:52 PM

Paul:
As much of the concern is taking up valuable screen space, Logos can easily save a little bit of space by using the Logos logo as the home button.

Thanks for the reminder about this.

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