New store button in Logos 9.5 beta 1

Page 3 of 4 (75 items) < Previous 1 2 3 4 Next >
This post has 74 Replies | 6 Followers

Posts 440
DMB | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Apr 23 2021 7:32 AM

GaoLu:
I don't want to publicly say that it is little more than another annoying marketing ploy that we are supposed to like, but then, it publicly is.

I think you might have publicly said it. But more seriously, this conversation goes way, way back. FL sells stuff (helps with the payroll). Customers squealed like stuck pigs, each time FL moved forward with sell-stuff on their religious Bible-study software. So, they move the needle a bit each time, arguing it's gentile-practice. You'll notice (a) optional is too obvious and (b) gee, this is so hard to figure out. I'm waiting for helpful advert popups with prayer-lists. 

Posts 227
Tony Walker | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Apr 23 2021 8:31 AM

Logos, you have helped me so much the last 7 years... do all you can to make every dime you can. I want you to be in business until I die, and then I want you to stay in business until the person who inherits my library dies. 

Posts 10832
Forum MVP
Jack Caviness | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Apr 24 2021 12:21 PM

Phil Gons (Faithlife):
I can see users in many cases saying they would like to be able to hide these because they never use them.

That would be my take on the Store button. I cannot imagine any scenario where I would use this.

Just tried to use the icon, and got an error communicating with the server—twice.

Posts 3195
Tes | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Apr 24 2021 12:29 PM

If we can hide it in the setting would be the best.

Blessings in Christ.

Posts 155
Willie | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Apr 27 2021 10:42 PM

Phil Gons (Faithlife):

Gordon Jones:
Nonetheless, please note the not-unreasonable requests for user control over where and whether to place the Store tab.

Noted. We're discussing what that could look like. Two possible approaches:

  1. Different collapsing behavior that prioritizes more important items as you run out of space
  2. Ability to customize the toolbar by hiding certain items

If #2, should we do it based on aggregate usage? Anything fewer than x% of users use should be hideable? Everything should be hideable based on individual user preferences? By what principles would we allow hiding the Store button but not the Sync button, the Profile menu, the Close All button, the Home button, or the Logos logo? I can see users in many cases saying they would like to be able to hide these because they never use them. If we do come up with something here, I'd like it to be principled and consistent rather than making a quick reaction to a change that might end up being okay after a few weeks of adjustment.

Thanks for voicing your feedback. We'll keep listening.

I am not a beta tester but have been following this thread with great interest.  I share the concerns expressed in this thread about the Store button and I hope users are allowed to hide it or it is removed from the program’s main toolbar.  However, in its other location within the Library, I can understand how it would be beneficial to some users.

I believe the ideal solution is toolbar customization in which everything on the main toolbar is hideable based on individual user preference.

If Faithlife simply removes the Store button from the main toolbar, the objections expressed in this thread about this particular button would be resolved, but what happens later when something else just as objectionable or more is added to the toolbar?  Allowing everything on the toolbar to be hideable based on individual user preference would not only solve this issue but any future one. 

Toolbar customization would also solve the problem of the main toolbar already being overcrowded.  If given the opportunity, I would hide the Store button if it remains as well as the Home, Factbook, Sync, and Profile Menu buttons since I never use any of these.  I would also hide the huge Logos logo. 

I would especially hide the Go button and use the keyboard enter key instead which is already possible.  This very distracting bright green Go button hurts my eyes and since its introduction in Logos 8, I’ve had to hang a small cloth strip from the top of my monitor to cover the button while I use the program. 

Thank you for the opportunity to provide this feedback.  I hope it helps.

Posts 5548
SineNomine | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Apr 28 2021 5:08 AM

Willie:
I would especially hide the Go button and use the keyboard enter key instead which is already possible.  This very distracting bright green Go button hurts my eyes and since its introduction in Logos 8, I’ve had to hang a small cloth strip from the top of my monitor to cover the button while I use the program. 

Just in case it helps, in Dark Mode in Verbum, that button is grey.

Posts 155
Willie | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Apr 28 2021 11:56 PM

SineNomine:

Just in case it helps, in Dark Mode in Verbum, that button is grey.

Thank you SineNomine.  I tried the Dark Application Theme and found I cannot use it.  For me, it was uncomfortable to view, but I’m glad those who requested it now have that option.

I like the original System Application Theme.  If I could just hide those toolbar buttons I don’t use (including the Store button) and the one that hurts my eyes (Go button), I would have absolutely no complaints.

If I do ever have a need for in-app purchasing, the Store tab in the Library is easy to find.

Posts 155
Willie | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, May 2 2021 8:19 PM

James Hudson:

MJ. Smith:
Whatever you chose, a major consideration should be that the newer user NOT be able to hide essential functions

That is true, but I expect 'newer users' wouldn't go to the customizing options (in preferences - if that's where it ends up), but even so there could then be a 'restore defaults' option at the bottom of the options page?????

MJ. Smith:
There is good reason for toolbars to rarely be configurable

Most popular programs have configurable toolbars such as MS Office!

James

If Faithlife decides to add toolbar customization, I would not want to be limited in what I could choose to hide.  As for new users, I agree with James’ comments.  New users would most likely want to become well acquainted with all elements on the toolbar before deciding what to customize.  I especially like the idea of a “restore defaults” option.   Perhaps within Program Settings a section could be added titled “Toolbar” with everything on the main toolbar listed along with the “restore defaults” option James suggests. 

Accordance has allowed everything on their main toolbar to be hideable for a long time and it appears to be very popular with their users.  Within their toolbar customizing menu they include a “Reset” button to restore all default toolbar items.

I do not believe toolbar customization (everything on the toolbar hideable based on individual user preference) would present any insurmountable training obstacles.  Every new Logos version that comes out requires new training videos and some effort to learn.  In addition, in the last couple of years whenever an especially significant software update has occurred (8.7 Context Menu, 9.1 Factbook) Morris Proctor has made available free webinar videos nearly simultaneous with the update release.

I recently asked John Fallahee of LearnLogos.com who has trained thousands of Logos users of all levels from brand new to advanced how toolbar customization might affect his job as a trainer.  John graciously allowed me to share his reply which reads as follows, "Yes, training would be impacted, but only the starting point would be different.  Instead of starting with a standard interface, I would simply begin with the ‘recommended interface’ and proceed to show key features.  I am in full support of customization."

One final thought: I object to the addition of the Store button to the toolbar, but I don’t fault Faithlife for looking for ways to increase sales and maintain a profitable business.  I not only believe toolbar customization is the ideal solution, I also believe it could so significantly increase customer satisfaction and attract so many new users that it might result in a level of increased sales for Faithlife which far exceeds anything achieved through the addition of an unpopular Store button to the toolbar.

I hope this is helpful.

Posts 5548
SineNomine | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, May 9 2021 8:47 AM

Willie:
New users would most likely want to become well acquainted with all elements on the toolbar before deciding what to customize. 

Counterfactuals are always risky, but were I a new user, I wouldn't wait around to hide the Store button, if I knew it were possible to do so.

Posts 33257
Forum MVP
MJ. Smith | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, May 9 2021 1:25 PM

Okay, can we go back to the basics. Can someone show me that it is the toolbar not the ribbon that is customizable in Accordance? I don't own Accordance but from the posts here vs. the screen shots on the web, I'm not sure that we aren't talking apples to pomegranates.

Orthodox Bishop Hilarion Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."

Posts 2348
GaoLu | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, May 9 2021 8:00 PM

Does this help?

Seems in my memory that I am not supposed to link to such and such a website, but here is a screenshot of some interest.



Posts 33257
Forum MVP
MJ. Smith | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, May 9 2021 8:23 PM

Thank you. You have just confirmed what I suspected. In the terminology that as a Windows oriented person I use is not the same as people referencing Accordance are using. To me, the toolbar is the line above the ribbon which has icons. Now that I understand the vocabulary of the other side, perhaps the suggestion and thread will make more sense rather than feeling like a violation of basic UI design.

Orthodox Bishop Hilarion Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."

Posts 286
James Hudson | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, May 9 2021 11:04 PM

Not sure that terminology makes a difference to this thread, which is about the store button (which has not been a user request) added to the bar in Logos taking up valuable space, in opposition to the user requests to save/maximise space in that bar.

However, for reference of terminology see https://www.computerhope.com/jargon/t/toolbar.htm and https://docs.devexpress.com/WindowsForms/1199/controls-and-libraries/ribbon-bars-and-menu

HTH,

James

Posts 33257
Forum MVP
MJ. Smith | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, May 9 2021 11:53 PM

James Hudson:
Not sure that terminology makes a difference to this thread,

It may not to you but it does to me given the UI principles I was taught/confined to by standards/practiced. While the usage I learned may or may not be standard usage on certain platforms, it is the usage I know and understand things in terms of. I had checked with Microsoft dev guidelines before a post several days ago and was the person to first raise the question of the placement of the store icon. I did do my homework before asking for the very specific piece of information that I needed - I would be surprised if it were what others needed. Thank you for taking the time to find and supply additional references.

Orthodox Bishop Hilarion Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."

Posts 2348
GaoLu | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, May 12 2021 7:41 AM

I think you distracted the thread from the point of the OP, MJ.  I know you wouldn't do such a thing on purpose. The point isn't ribbons and toolbars; the point is the unwanted new store icon--and being given no option to remove it.

Posts 33257
Forum MVP
MJ. Smith | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, May 12 2021 2:33 PM

Sorry if a lifetime career in IT has made me want to know the facts and standards before proposing the best solution. While I did not initiate this thread, I did initiate the first thread on the topic and thought best to consolidate the discussion in the more active thread.

Orthodox Bishop Hilarion Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."

Posts 440
DMB | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, May 12 2021 3:00 PM

Willie:
Accordance has allowed everything on their main toolbar to be hideable for a long time and it appears to be very popular with their users.  Within their toolbar customizing menu they include a “Reset” button to restore all default toolbar items.

I too was curious. I went out to the garage, and started up my old 2014 Accordance. And sure enough, you could select the tools you'd like, in the order preferred. Of course, Libby was an early (and sophisticated) customizer.

But when I checked Bibleworks, I was surprised. Of course, they had the ribbon of many colors. But you could force the toolbar to convert to hamburger menus. Indeed, I took the plunge, clearing off both the tool bar and ribbon. A whole screen of just 'Bible'!

I think the L4+ hard-boxed interface sort of tied Logos' digital paws. If I remember, Bob didn't like the MS multi-level menus (which later resurrected as hamburgers, etc).

Posts 1190
Kiyah | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, May 19 2021 6:09 AM

Phil Gons (Faithlife):

Gordon Jones:
Nonetheless, please note the not-unreasonable requests for user control over where and whether to place the Store tab.

Noted. We're discussing what that could look like. Two possible approaches:

  1. Different collapsing behavior that prioritizes more important items as you run out of space
  2. Ability to customize the toolbar by hiding certain items

If #2, should we do it based on aggregate usage? Anything fewer than x% of users use should be hideable? Everything should be hideable based on individual user preferences? By what principles would we allow hiding the Store button but not the Sync button, the Profile menu, the Close All button, the Home button, or the Logos logo? I can see users in many cases saying they would like to be able to hide these because they never use them. If we do come up with something here, I'd like it to be principled and consistent rather than making a quick reaction to a change that might end up being okay after a few weeks of adjustment.

Thanks for voicing your feedback. We'll keep listening.

Is there any update on what will be done about this? I see the RC1 version has come out. I have turned off automatic updates so that I don't receive this update. I have no more space on my toolbar. Please make the toolbar fully customizable and in the control of the user. I need to be able to remove this button. I can't update until I have that ability.

Here are my full thoughts that I posted to another thread. https://community.logos.com/forums/p/200379/1166218.aspx#1166218

Faithlife needs to listen to its customers on this one. There are plenty of useful, helpful ways to get to the store already from the software. I actually like what you don't with the Bookstore search and with the Store tab in the Library. We don't need and don't want a toolbar button.

Posts 5548
SineNomine | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, May 19 2021 8:21 AM

Kiyah:
I see the RC1 version has come out.

I am disappointed that it still seems to be impossible to hide the Store button.

Page 3 of 4 (75 items) < Previous 1 2 3 4 Next > | RSS