Are Freemasons Heretic? Resources

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MJ. Smith | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, May 26 2021 1:20 PM

DAL:
Rosicrucians? There’s nothing Christian about them, I know for sure.

Please,  Lectorium Rosicrucianum and The Rosicrucian Fellowship are generally considered to be Christian although I think you are correct that Rosicrucianism proper does not claim to be Christian although it has some Christian elements. One may think is safe to knock another group as "not Christian" but 5 minutes of Google research can often show that there are Christian groups among them. I would be delighted if some members of these obscure groups used Logos. It would turn The Divine Comedy into religious literature.

Orthodox Bishop Hilarion Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."

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DAL | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, May 26 2021 1:34 PM

MJ. Smith:

DAL:
Rosicrucians? There’s nothing Christian about them, I know for sure.

Please,  Lectorium Rosicrucianum and The Rosicrucian Fellowship are generally considered to be Christian although I think you are correct that Rosicrucianism proper does not claim to be Christian although it has some Christian elements. One may think is safe to knock another group as "not Christian" but 5 minutes of Google research can often show that there are Christian groups among them. I would be delighted if some members of these obscure groups used Logos. It would turn The Divine Comedy into religious literature.

I don’t know MJ, but the particular group I know, in Spanish is “Rosacruces” they are heavily involved in the occult.  And when I say I know I’m not making up any bed time stories, I’m stating a fact. So unless there’s another group that claims affiliation to Christianity I do not know anything about them; I only know about this particular group that I’m very familiar with.

DAL

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MJ. Smith | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, May 26 2021 1:55 PM

DAL:
Spanish is “Rosacruces” they are heavily involved in the occult.

I don't question that that is true. But Wikipedia appears to show about 50 contemporary Rosicrucians groups. From Wikipedia:

During the late 19th and early 20th centuries, various groups styled themselves Rosicrucian. The diverse groups who link themselves to a "Rosicrucian Tradition" can be divided into three categories: Esoteric Christian Rosicrucian groups, which profess Christ; Masonic Rosicrucian groups such as Societas Rosicruciana; and initiatory groups such as the Golden Dawn and the Ancient Mystical Order Rosae Crucis (AMORC).

My point is that you made a broad statement that excluded a group of Christians that may be included in our forums -- the reason we don't make evaluative statements. I am sure that if there are any Rosicrucian (or occult) individuals in the forums they are unlikely to admit it. I believe that your statement was made in good faith unaware that you were including Christian groups in your "nothing Christian about them."

DAL:
So unless there’s another group that claims affiliation to Christianity I do not know anything about them

I provided the names of two such groups ... the first ones I found on the web ... I would suspect there are others.

Orthodox Bishop Hilarion Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."

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DAL | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, May 26 2021 1:58 PM

MJ. Smith:

DAL:
Spanish is “Rosacruces” they are heavily involved in the occult.

I don't question that that is true. But Wikipedia appears to show about 50 contemporary Rosicrucians groups. From Wikipedia:

During the late 19th and early 20th centuries, various groups styled themselves Rosicrucian. The diverse groups who link themselves to a "Rosicrucian Tradition" can be divided into three categories: Esoteric Christian Rosicrucian groups, which profess Christ; Masonic Rosicrucian groups such as Societas Rosicruciana; and initiatory groups such as the Golden Dawn and the Ancient Mystical Order Rosae Crucis (AMORC).

My point is that you made a broad statement that excluded a group of Christians that may be included in our forums -- the reason we don't make evaluative statements. I am sure that if there are any Rosicrucian (or occult) individuals in the forums they are unlikely to admit it. I believe that your statement was made in good faith unaware that you were including Christian groups in your "nothing Christian about them."

I see what you mean.  Well my statement only refers to the group I know. If there are different “branches” named the same I’m not familiar with them.

DAL

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David Wanat | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, May 26 2021 2:13 PM

DAL:

David Wanat:

DAL:

David Wanat:

I'd probably question the claim about Calvin, given that Freemasonry—despite their own claims—can't really be traced earlier than the 18th century (though some believe that they derived from the Rosicrucians which were reportedly late 17th century). So I doubt it was around when Calvin was. As for Andrew Murray, while he would have been around, I don't know enough about him to say the claim is credible.

Rosicrucians? There’s nothing Christian about them, I know for sure.  They’re sorta popular in Latin American countries, but not everyone can’t “get in.” Too complicated and their “rituals” involve some heavy weird stuff.  I’m not going to get into any of it, but stay clear from them.  🏃‍♀️ 💨 

DAL

The whole point of my post was to express doubt that Calvin was a member, not to advocate membership. I have no intention of getting involved.

I know, no one stated otherwise.

DAL

Sorry for misunderstanding. I interpreted it as you warning me to stay away.

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nl | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, May 27 2021 10:45 PM

I've got a book by a former 33rd degree Freemason who got saved and exposed their satanic practices. I'm trying to find it and will post once I know the author/title.

Posts 1033
Hamilton Ramos | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Sep 11 2021 10:00 PM

Beloved:

It seems to me you do not wish to start a theological discussion, but as many probably want good information.

I find that Logos is a superb tool for finding good information so one can arrive at own conjectures on topics of interest.

What I have noticed seems to be a weakness in the Forums is that many times we need to know headwords, key concepts, etc relating to the particular topic, and unfortunately, if such are mentioned the flags start to signal out of bounds.

A good way to get good info from resources is to search for key terms, concepts and the like in basic Library search. The larger the Library the better.

Different traditions / denominations have different views on a topic. 

Our job I would think is to check them angles, and synthesize a balanced conclusion about a particular topic given the input we find in the resources.

So my 2 cents: some concepts to research:

Jahbulon, "apotheosis of Washington", origin of the U.S. Constitution, egregore,  ...hope you get the idea.

I want to thank posters that provided links to resources that deal with the topic, some I was not aware of.

Hope this helps.

Peace (shalom)  and grace.

Posts 610
Gregory Lawhorn | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Sep 12 2021 4:02 AM

Adam Borries (Faithlife):

I mean that the question is inherently theological. What constitutes "authoritative?" Whose definition are you using of "heretic"? If we want to give resource recommendations for studying what freemasons believe, great. The minute we make an evaluation on orthodoxy, it is theological by nature.

I don't want to stir up a hornet's nest, but if I understand your answer, I am allowed to ask (for example) about resources on Roman Catholicism, but not about resources that are critical of Roman Catholicism. Is that correct?

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Hamilton Ramos | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Sep 12 2021 7:55 AM

Gregory Lawhorn:
if I understand your answer, I am allowed to ask (for example) about resources on Roman Catholicism, but not about resources that are critical of Roman Catholicism. Is that correct?

Gregory, I know you did not write to me, but what you mention is interesting. The way I look at the use of L9 (and thus the input from the Forums) is much in a way the counterpoint series work...

Different traditions, monographs, resources will express opinions pro and counter some institutions, theological constructs, particular issues, etc.

We do have the freedom to explore on our own, and then search the Scriptures to see if things are so.

In the end each must come to their own conclusions as we do conjectures based on the scant information we have at hand.

The beauty of the Forums, is that as posters have pondered about important stuff, one can analyze the issue from a myriad of angles that maybe had not thought about before, giving (hopefully) a more well-rounded appreciation of what is involved in the root cause of the issue.

I see nothing wrong with such exploration and reflection, as long as one is not trying to impose the particular view one has.

To give an example near what you mention:

Some criticize Roman Catholicism because of the stance taken about the Reich in WWII. Eventually I read that they did best they could under duress.

Maybe they could have done better, but unless one is put in that particular situation and has to make hard decisions, is a little unfair to then criticize actions after fact.

What is remarkable is that at the lower congregational level, many devout Catholics (both lay and clergy), did a lot to help victims of a system that was perceived as very unjust.

I am sure there are genuine lovers of God in the Catholic tradition, and that try to do as much Christlike work as they can, to imitate their Savior.

Maybe their doctrine is different from other traditions, but they are working where God put them and in the light they have.

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Beloved Amodeo | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Sep 12 2021 12:04 PM

Thanks, Hamilton

I was completely ignorant of the keywords you presented, so on my own I would not be able to invoke this approach. Your input is appreciated Pp 2:9-11.

Meanwhile, Jesus kept on growing wiser and more mature, and in favor with God and his fellow man.

International Standard Version. (2011). (Lk 2:52). Yorba Linda, CA: ISV Foundation.

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MJ. Smith | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Sep 12 2021 3:13 PM

Gregory Lawhorn:
I am allowed to ask (for example) about resources on Roman Catholicism, but not about resources that are critical of Roman Catholicism. Is that correct?
That depends on how you ask the question. You could, for example, ask for resources on the Roman Catholic view of Vatican II - pro and con. You could ask for resources on the Biblical basis for the use of Tradition in the ACELO churches (Anglican, Catholic, Eastern Orthodox, Lutheran, Oriental Orthodox churches). Both are neutral questions that don't assume there is a right side or a wrong side to be on.

However, to ask for resources to prove the use of Tradition is heretical or unsupported by Scripture is not allowed -- it by it's own wording says at least 3/4th of the world's Christians are not Christian and implies your (flawed) understanding of truth is the only truth. I put in the word (flawed) because given the number of different interpretations and beliefs that have resulted in church divisions, it is mathematically a near impossibility that anyone is right on all issues and the possibility that they would ask a question in that manner decreases with their closeness to full truth. Similarly, to ask for resources on the schismatic Catholics who reject Vatican II is not allowed while asking for Catholic resources on the validity of Vatican II is allowed. Why? because schismatic assigns a true/false value to their beliefs while the request for resource does not.

The pattern is simple: if the question evaluates which side is right and which side is wrong, it is not allowed; it is offensive to those on the "wrong side"; if the question is counterfactual i.e. requires something to be true that is not, it is not allowed; it is offensive to those who recognize it is simply a trick to get around the guidelines; if the question simply asks for resources on a topic, it is allowed. For example, I could ask for resources on the evangelical rejection of Tradition and stay within the guidelines.

Orthodox Bishop Hilarion Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."

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Hamilton Ramos | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Sep 12 2021 9:21 PM

Beloved:

You are welcome.

It would be interesting if there was a resource that had key words, key concepts, key phrases, related to important subjects in L9.  t would really allow the search capabilities be leveraged, and less guideline violations would be needed as one would have the heart of the matter topic available in such resource.

To get an idea I found the following which is interesting, but have no clue whatsoever about how they compiled the list:

https://relatedwords.org/relatedto/freemason

The strange thing is that the key words I mentioned are not there.

Peace and grace.

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Hamilton Ramos | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Sep 12 2021 9:31 PM

MJ. Smith:
However, to ask for resources to prove the use of Tradition is heretical or unsupported by Scripture is not allowed

MJ, I know you did not write to me, but the above seems a little unfair. Whenever I hear of a given concept, institution, doctrine, etc. I do a quick search to find the "what is wrong with it" articles, so I can appreciate the real danger of lightly accepting the construct, institution, etc without critically checking the darker side of it.

I do it not to polemicize or get fuel for a rightness contest, but to seek alternative to the flawed part of it, much a la ISO, opportunity for continuous improvement.

And the reason why I get into that is because my understanding of a command in the Bible is clear enough: check all, retain what is good.

In such process, I found that Logos is very useful, and the larger the Library the better, as many key topics are sometimes clarified very well in a monograph that does not primarily concern the topic for which the  clarification was found.

So in my research I have found plenty of dark sides of constructs, institutions, people, movements, etc. But as Baptist brothers suggest strongly, it is our duty to find ways to redeem such flaws.

Different angle for further research, reflection, and constructive comments.

Peace and grace.

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MJ. Smith | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Sep 12 2021 11:10 PM

Hamilton Ramos:
but the above seems a little unfair. Whenever I hear of a given concept, institution, doctrine, etc. I do a quick search to find the "what is wrong with it" articles

You missed my point. One can ask for resources on both sides of an issue. You cannot imply or state that one side is right and the other is wrong.

Orthodox Bishop Hilarion Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."

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Keep Smiling 4 Jesus :) | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Sep 13 2021 8:55 AM

Searching All Resources in my library for {Headword Freemasonry} found articles in several encyclopedias:

A Catholic Dictionary

Decker's Complete Handbook on Mormonism

Encyclopaedia of Religion and Ethics (13 vols.)

Encyclopedic Dictionary of Cults, Sects, and World Religions

The Jewish Encyclopedia (12 vols.)

Sacramentum Mundi: An Encyclopedia of Theology (6 vols.)

Keep Smiling 4 Jesus :):

In 1995, Zondervan Academic published Masonic Lodge whose 2016 ebook is available on general.ebooks.faithlife.com (Noet replacement), which can be used in Faithlife apps.

See Inside preview of Masonic Lodge shows 1. Is Freemasonry a Religion ? so searched for:

([field heading,largetext] Freemason, Freemasonry) WITHIN 11 WORDS (prayer OR religion)

Search Bookstore section includes Masonic Lodge 

Inverted screen shot image (since some eyes struggle with dark mode)

Delivering the Captives: Understanding the Strongman - and How to Defeat Him includes context for Jahbulon suggestion by Hamilton Ramos (so search could be expanded using keywords in this resource and/or keywords in encyclopedia articles)

Keep Smiling Smile

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MJ. Smith | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Sep 13 2021 1:42 PM

I think we've proven beyond a reasonable doubt that Logos carries little to nothing that are actually Freemasonry sources from which we might discover what Freemasonry groups actually believe/practice. Logos only carries a few dictionary/encyclopedia articles with very brief descriptions and polemic resources which by definition are biased. If you want to know about Freemasonry groups go elsewhere.

Orthodox Bishop Hilarion Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."

Posts 2526
GaoLu | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Sep 13 2021 4:26 PM

Sorry if this has already been offered (I haven't read much of this thread), but this thorough article in The Catholic Encyclopedia offers some helpful insights.  

https://ref.ly/logosres/cathency?hw=Freemasonry

Gruber, Hermann. “Masonry (Freemasonry).” Edited by Charles G. Herbermann, Edward A. Pace, Condé B. Pallen, Thomas J. Shahan, and John J. Wynne. The Catholic Encyclopedia: An International Work of Reference on the Constitution, Doctrine, Discipline, and History of the Catholic Church. New York: The Encyclopedia Press; The Universal Knowledge Foundation, 1907–1913.

Posts 1033
Hamilton Ramos | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Sep 13 2021 6:35 PM

MJ. Smith:
I think we've proven beyond a reasonable doubt that Logos carries little to nothing that are actually Freemasonry sources from which we might discover what Freemasonry groups actually believe/practice.

which resources would you suggest to look into? I seriously doubt you will find an official work by them that actually tells you what they do or think because they would then be not "Hermetic" anymore if so.

MJ. Smith:
Logos only carries a few dictionary/encyclopedia articles with very brief descriptions and polemic resources which by definition are biased.

How can you know a resource is biased if the person giving the information in it actually had a conversion experience with God through His Holy Spirit and told it like it is?

MJ. Smith:
If you want to know about Freemasonry groups go elsewhere.

I would imagine Beloved is evangelical, so it would be more important if someone could give Biblical content that directly or indirectly deals with the subject.

Beloved is smart and has a large Library, he can take the research forward to investigate on his own. And I am pretty sure he has the rationality and the illumination of the Holy Spirit to know if something is propaganda or not.

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Hamilton Ramos | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Sep 13 2021 6:36 PM

Thanks Gao, but it will probably be catalogued as propaganda.

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MJ. Smith | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Sep 13 2021 10:22 PM

Hamilton Ramos:
I seriously doubt you will find an official work by them that actually tells you what they do or think because they would then be not "Hermetic" anymore if so.

I know at least one Freemasonry organization that offers correspondence courses to the public. Most Freemason contemporary organizations do not consider themselves "hermetic". Simply read their arguments as to why the Catholic Church evaluation of them should no longer apply. Beyond that, I will not be pulled into the discussion.

Orthodox Bishop Hilarion Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."

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