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David Paul | Forum Activity | Posted: Mon, May 24 2021 2:47 AM

https://blog.logos.com/what-is-pentecost-in-the-bible-and-why-is-it-important/

Once again, a blog post riddled with inaccuracies...some theological, and some simply factual.

Looking at just a snippet, both the green and blue statements are factually incorrect.

Enough already...please just stop.

ASROCK x570 Creator, AMD R9 3950x, HyperX 64gb 3600 RAM, Asus Strix RTX 2080 ti, 2tb m.2 Seagate Firecuda SSD (x2) ...and other mechano-digital happiness.

"The Unbelievable Work...believe it or not."

Posts 2286
Joseph Turner | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, May 24 2021 5:06 AM

This is meant as an honest question and not some sort of gotcha challenge, but what exactly is it that you are taking issue with?  Concerning the first statement, it was 7 weeks after Pentecost and celebrated on the 50th day.  Concerning the second statement, it was the Greek name for the Feast of Weeks, which was so named as it included seven weeks.  I don't know if it's the fourth spring feast.

I may be just displaying my ignorance, but I don't see the issue.

Disclaimer:  I hate using messaging, texting, and email for real communication.  If anything that I type to you seems like anything other than humble and respectful, then I have not done a good job typing my thoughts.

Posts 139
Bob | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, May 24 2021 11:36 AM

Joseph Turner:

This is meant as an honest question and not some sort of gotcha challenge, but what exactly is it that you are taking issue with?  Concerning the first statement, it was 7 weeks after Pentecost and celebrated on the 50th day.  Concerning the second statement, it was the Greek name for the Feast of Weeks, which was so named as it included seven weeks.  I don't know if it's the fourth spring feast.

I may be just displaying my ignorance, but I don't see the issue.

The Feast of Weeks is on the 50th day from the waving of the sheaf of the firstfruits, not Passover.  

I'm not sure about the other concern about it being the 4th spring feast.  I've always seen it listed 4th.  I'm waiting, like you, for a response from David Paul for an understanding.

Bob

Posts 448
DMB | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, May 24 2021 12:13 PM

120 squeezed in a room must have been pretty tight.  I guess I don't understand the need to stray from the text.

Posts 5847
DIsciple II | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, May 24 2021 12:31 PM

 It seems they are relying upon what some of the bible dictionaries in Logos say, as an example:

SHAVUOT (THE FEAST OF WEEKS). Because it occurs seven weeks after Passover, this feast is called Shavuot, meaning “weeks.” The Feast of Weeks is mentioned in eight passages in the Bible, five of which are in the Old Testament and three in the New Testament (Exod. 23:16; 34:22; Lev. 23:15–21; Num. 28:26; Deut. 16:9–12; Acts 2:1–4; 20:16; 1 Cor. 16:8).
In the Mosaic law, two wave loaves were offered, and these loaves were to be leavened. This is the only festival where leaven was permitted, but it was not burned on the altar. Leaven is a symbol of sin, and those who are represented by this sacrifice are sinners. Also, there is no specific calendar date for the feast because it was to occur seven weeks from the Sunday following Passover.
Jewish people observe Shavuot today by reading the book of Ruth because the story took place during the time of harvest and because of a tradition that King David (a descendant of Ruth) was born during the Feast of Weeks. Another form of observance is staying up all night to study the Mosaic law, a reminder that there was thunder and lightning at the time the law was given and this kept the Jews awake all night. During Shavuot special food items are served. One is kreplach (a type of Jewish dumpling, normally consisting of chopped meat, garlic, and onions enclosed in pasta, but on this occasion filled only with cheese). Also popular are cheese blintzes, very thin pancakes, usually filled with cream cheese, folded into a rectangle and then fried or baked, usually eaten with some kind of sour cream sauce or fruit topping.
Also branches from trees and grass from the field are spread over the floor of the synagogue as a reminder that Jewish people should be praying for a bumper crop of fruit.

See also JUDAISM

Bibliography. A. Fruchtenbaum, The Feasts of Israel; C. Roth, “Shavuot,” in Encyclopedia Judaica, edited by C. Roth; H. Schauss, The Jewish Festivals: History & Observance; I. Singer, “Shavuot,” in The Jewish Encyclopedia; M. Strassfeld, The Jewish Holidays: A Guide & Commentary; Y. Vainstein, The Cycle of the Jewish Year: A Study of the Festivals and of Selections from the Liturgy.

A. Fruchtenbaum


Fruchtenbaum, A., 2018. Shavuot (The Feast of Weeks) H. W. House, ed. The Evangelical Dictionary of World Religions, p.464.

This one though does give information in line with what Bob suggested: 

3.1.3. Feast of Weeks (Heb. ḥag šābû‘ôt). This feast is also called “the day of the first fruits” (Ex 34:22; Num 28:26) or “the feast of the harvest” (Ex 23:16). Being celebrated “fifty” (LXX: pentēkonta) days after the raising of the sheaf of the first fruits at the end of Passover and Unleavened Bread (Lev 23:9–16) gave it the name “Pentecost” (Tob 2:1; 2 Macc 12:31–32), used in the NT at Acts 2:1; 20:16; 1 Corinthians 16:8.

Twelftree, G.H., 2013. Feasts J. B. Green, J. K. Brown, & N. Perrin, eds. Dictionary of Jesus and the Gospels, Second Edition, p.273.

I have seen four spring feasts spoken of : Passover, Unleavened bread, First fruits and Pentecost but not saying that is authoritative information so would be interested on David's further comments on this to clarify my own understanding.

 

Posts 139
Bob | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, May 24 2021 12:31 PM

DMB:

120 squeezed in a room must have been pretty tight.  I guess I don't understand the need to stray from the text.

I'm sorry, I don't understand what you are implying.  Please explain.

Bob

Posts 201
scooter | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, May 24 2021 12:37 PM

David Paul:

https://blog.logos.com/what-is-pentecost-in-the-bible-and-why-is-it-important/

Once again, a blog post riddled with inaccuracies...some theological, and some simply factual.

Looking at just a snippet, both the green and blue statements are factually incorrect.

Enough already...please just stop.

I do not know what U consider wrong with the material U have concerns with, as I am a layman.

Best for me would be you saying what, in your opinion, is the correct information, so I can contrast it with your highlighted concerns.

Posts 448
DMB | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, May 24 2021 12:52 PM

Bob:

DMB:

120 squeezed in a room must have been pretty tight.  I guess I don't understand the need to stray from the text.

I'm sorry, I don't understand what you are implying.  Please explain.

Bob

Posts 33276
Forum MVP
MJ. Smith | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, May 24 2021 2:38 PM

DMB:

Let's think this through. What was  the average size of a Jewish man in the first century A.D.? From By Our World In Data - https://ourworldindata.org/grapher/human-heights-over-the-long-run, CC BY 3.0, https://commons.wikimedia.org/w/index.php?curid=86929781 

Human Heights Over The Long Run.Svg
Drats ... for the hyper-literalist, I can't find the corresponding body mass nor the average amount of space taken when huddling rather than standing. Love your thought but can't carry it to it's logical conclusion ... it must remain a Biblical mystery.Wink

Orthodox Bishop Hilarion Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."

Posts 448
DMB | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, May 24 2021 3:29 PM

MJ. Smith:
Drats ... for the hyper-literalist, I can't find the corresponding body mass nor the average amount of space taken when huddling rather than standing

Well, reading carefully, even though the blog has all 120 people huddled up, it's the 'whole house' that gets the Spirit'. The writer is careful to specify ... not just the huddling room. Of course the 'house' could be the huddlers, not a single one missing out (our pastor really wondered about the 12th dice-selected guy vs the better qualified Paul).

Posts 139
Bob | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, May 24 2021 4:03 PM

DIsciple II:

 This one though does give information in line with what Bob suggested: 

3.1.3. Feast of Weeks (Heb. ḥag šābû‘ôt). This feast is also called “the day of the first fruits” (Ex 34:22; Num 28:26) or “the feast of the harvest” (Ex 23:16). Being celebrated “fifty” (LXX: pentēkonta) days after the raising of the sheaf of the first fruits at the end of Passover and Unleavened Bread (Lev 23:9–16) gave it the name “Pentecost” (Tob 2:1; 2 Macc 12:31–32), used in the NT at Acts 2:1; 20:16; 1 Corinthians 16:8.

Twelftree, G.H., 2013. Feasts J. B. Green, J. K. Brown, & N. Perrin, eds. Dictionary of Jesus and the Gospels, Second Edition, p.273.

I have seen four spring feasts spoken of : Passover, Unleavened bread, First fruits and Pentecost but not saying that is authoritative information so would be interested on David's further comments on this to clarify my own understanding.

 

My comments came from Lev. 23:15-16.

“You shall count seven full weeks from the day after the Sabbath, from the day that you brought the sheaf of the wave offering. You shall count fifty days to the day after the seventh Sabbath. Then you shall present a grain offering of new grain to the Lord.

 

The issue then becomes, when was the day of the wave offering?

From Lev. 23:10-11:

“Speak to the people of Israel and say to them, When you come into the land that I give you and reap its harvest, you shall bring the sheaf of the firstfruits of your harvest to the priest, and he shall wave the sheaf before the Lord, so that you may be accepted. On the day after the Sabbath the priest shall wave it.

 

What day after the sabbath are we talking about?  Somehow, (and I wish someone could comment on this), this day became associated with the Feast of Unleavened Bread.  It seems the Pharisees said this day was Nisan 16, the day after the first day of Unleavened Bread.

Nisan 14 is Passover.

Nisan 15 is first day of the Feast of Unleavened Bread (which is a Sabbath, no matter what day it falls on).

The Pharisees and Orthodox Judaism say that the date for the waive offering of firstfruits is Nisan 16.   Because it’s the first day after the Sabbath of the first day of Unleavened Bread.

Others will say that the day for the wave offering, is the day after the first “weekly” Sabbath AFTER the first day of Unleavened Bread (Nisan 15). 

So, regardless of the two options, the waving of the sheaf of firstfruits is just a few days after Passover (Nisan 14).  Either 2 days or, 2 to 6 days.

Again, I am curious as to how and when, it came about, that the date of the waving of the sheaf of firstfruits came to be associated with the first day of Unleavened Bread.

 

Bob

 

Posts 5847
DIsciple II | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, May 24 2021 7:29 PM

Appreciate your explanation from Scripture of your position Bob.

Bob:

DIsciple II:

 This one though does give information in line with what Bob suggested: 

3.1.3. Feast of Weeks (Heb. ḥag šābû‘ôt). This feast is also called “the day of the first fruits” (Ex 34:22; Num 28:26) or “the feast of the harvest” (Ex 23:16). Being celebrated “fifty” (LXX: pentēkonta) days after the raising of the sheaf of the first fruits at the end of Passover and Unleavened Bread (Lev 23:9–16) gave it the name “Pentecost” (Tob 2:1; 2 Macc 12:31–32), used in the NT at Acts 2:1; 20:16; 1 Corinthians 16:8.

Twelftree, G.H., 2013. Feasts J. B. Green, J. K. Brown, & N. Perrin, eds. Dictionary of Jesus and the Gospels, Second Edition, p.273.

I have seen four spring feasts spoken of : Passover, Unleavened bread, First fruits and Pentecost but not saying that is authoritative information so would be interested on David's further comments on this to clarify my own understanding.

 

My comments came from Lev. 23:15-16.

“You shall count seven full weeks from the day after the Sabbath, from the day that you brought the sheaf of the wave offering. You shall count fifty days to the day after the seventh Sabbath. Then you shall present a grain offering of new grain to the Lord.

 

The issue then becomes, when was the day of the wave offering?

From Lev. 23:10-11:

“Speak to the people of Israel and say to them, When you come into the land that I give you and reap its harvest, you shall bring the sheaf of the firstfruits of your harvest to the priest, and he shall wave the sheaf before the Lord, so that you may be accepted. On the day after the Sabbath the priest shall wave it.

 

What day after the sabbath are we talking about?  Somehow, (and I wish someone could comment on this), this day became associated with the Feast of Unleavened Bread.  It seems the Pharisees said this day was Nisan 16, the day after the first day of Unleavened Bread.

Nisan 14 is Passover.

Nisan 15 is first day of the Feast of Unleavened Bread (which is a Sabbath, no matter what day it falls on).

The Pharisees and Orthodox Judaism say that the date for the waive offering of firstfruits is Nisan 16.   Because it’s the first day after the Sabbath of the first day of Unleavened Bread.

Others will say that the day for the wave offering, is the day after the first “weekly” Sabbath AFTER the first day of Unleavened Bread (Nisan 15). 

So, regardless of the two options, the waving of the sheaf of firstfruits is just a few days after Passover (Nisan 14).  Either 2 days or, 2 to 6 days.

Again, I am curious as to how and when, it came about, that the date of the waving of the sheaf of firstfruits came to be associated with the first day of Unleavened Bread.

 

Bob

 

Posts 2286
Joseph Turner | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, May 25 2021 9:02 AM

DIsciple II:

 It seems they are relying upon what some of the bible dictionaries in Logos say, as an example:

SHAVUOT (THE FEAST OF WEEKS). Because it occurs seven weeks after Passover, this feast is called Shavuot, meaning “weeks.” The Feast of Weeks is mentioned in eight passages in the Bible, five of which are in the Old Testament and three in the New Testament (Exod. 23:16; 34:22; Lev. 23:15–21; Num. 28:26; Deut. 16:9–12; Acts 2:1–4; 20:16; 1 Cor. 16:8).
In the Mosaic law, two wave loaves were offered, and these loaves were to be leavened. This is the only festival where leaven was permitted, but it was not burned on the altar. Leaven is a symbol of sin, and those who are represented by this sacrifice are sinners. Also, there is no specific calendar date for the feast because it was to occur seven weeks from the Sunday following Passover.
Jewish people observe Shavuot today by reading the book of Ruth because the story took place during the time of harvest and because of a tradition that King David (a descendant of Ruth) was born during the Feast of Weeks. Another form of observance is staying up all night to study the Mosaic law, a reminder that there was thunder and lightning at the time the law was given and this kept the Jews awake all night. During Shavuot special food items are served. One is kreplach (a type of Jewish dumpling, normally consisting of chopped meat, garlic, and onions enclosed in pasta, but on this occasion filled only with cheese). Also popular are cheese blintzes, very thin pancakes, usually filled with cream cheese, folded into a rectangle and then fried or baked, usually eaten with some kind of sour cream sauce or fruit topping.
Also branches from trees and grass from the field are spread over the floor of the synagogue as a reminder that Jewish people should be praying for a bumper crop of fruit.

See also JUDAISM

Bibliography. A. Fruchtenbaum, The Feasts of Israel; C. Roth, “Shavuot,” in Encyclopedia Judaica, edited by C. Roth; H. Schauss, The Jewish Festivals: History & Observance; I. Singer, “Shavuot,” in The Jewish Encyclopedia; M. Strassfeld, The Jewish Holidays: A Guide & Commentary; Y. Vainstein, The Cycle of the Jewish Year: A Study of the Festivals and of Selections from the Liturgy.

A. Fruchtenbaum


Fruchtenbaum, A., 2018. Shavuot (The Feast of Weeks) H. W. House, ed. The Evangelical Dictionary of World Religions, p.464.

This one though does give information in line with what Bob suggested: 

3.1.3. Feast of Weeks (Heb. ḥag šābû‘ôt). This feast is also called “the day of the first fruits” (Ex 34:22; Num 28:26) or “the feast of the harvest” (Ex 23:16). Being celebrated “fifty” (LXX: pentēkonta) days after the raising of the sheaf of the first fruits at the end of Passover and Unleavened Bread (Lev 23:9–16) gave it the name “Pentecost” (Tob 2:1; 2 Macc 12:31–32), used in the NT at Acts 2:1; 20:16; 1 Corinthians 16:8.

Twelftree, G.H., 2013. Feasts J. B. Green, J. K. Brown, & N. Perrin, eds. Dictionary of Jesus and the Gospels, Second Edition, p.273.

I have seen four spring feasts spoken of : Passover, Unleavened bread, First fruits and Pentecost but not saying that is authoritative information so would be interested on David's further comments on this to clarify my own understanding.

 

This is where I was confused.  Even Anchor Bible Dictionary has it as stated in the quoted material from the OP, and in light of Bob's explanation above which seems to indicate some ambiguity, I couldn't understand why David took such offense to the highlighted portions.  

Disclaimer:  I hate using messaging, texting, and email for real communication.  If anything that I type to you seems like anything other than humble and respectful, then I have not done a good job typing my thoughts.

Posts 5847
DIsciple II | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, May 25 2021 7:31 PM

Joseph Turner:
This is where I was confused.  Even Anchor Bible Dictionary has it as stated in the quoted material from the OP, and in light of Bob's explanation above which seems to indicate some ambiguity, I couldn't understand why David took such offense to the highlighted portions.  

I would be none the wiser of this alternative position if he did not raise his concerns. While for me this particular issue doesn't impact the conviction of my faith I understand and respect David's desire for things to be spoken of accurately. I don't hold a position at this point in time on what I would see as the correct understanding and suspect the writer of the blog was like you and I Joseph and not aware of there being anything different to what AYBD or other such bible encyclopaedias commonly state.

I do respect though David holds a strong position on this point and so a red flag was raised for him. He was not giving a critique of another users personal beliefs but of something FL posted as being factual on their blog so personally I have no issue with him saying he disagrees with what the post said. It would have been helpful if he gave us more information to back up his position.  Bob stepped in an pointed us in a helpful direction. David's posts highlights for us there are things we just take for granted as being what we have always read or being taught or told but there might just be other views we have simply not come across yet. 

Posts 33276
Forum MVP
MJ. Smith | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, May 25 2021 7:49 PM

For this sort of complaint - Faithlife tagging or blogs or training materials - I wish we had an argument mapping tool that we could link to the text. Argument maps show both the pro and con sides for disputed issues -- I can't find the post where someone recently  suggested an online site

Orthodox Bishop Hilarion Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."

Posts 139
Bob | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, May 25 2021 8:21 PM

DIsciple II:

Joseph Turner:
This is where I was confused.  Even Anchor Bible Dictionary has it as stated in the quoted material from the OP, and in light of Bob's explanation above which seems to indicate some ambiguity, I couldn't understand why David took such offense to the highlighted portions.  

I would be none the wiser of this alternative position if he did not raise his concerns. While for me this particular issue doesn't impact the conviction of my faith I understand and respect David's desire for things to be spoken of accurately. I don't hold a position at this point in time on what I would see as the correct understanding and suspect the writer of the blog was like you and I Joseph and not aware of there being anything different to what AYBD or other such bible encyclopaedias commonly state.

I do respect though David holds a strong position on this point and so a red flag was raised for him. He was not giving a critique of another users personal beliefs but of something FL posted as being factual on their blog so personally I have no issue with him saying he disagrees with what the post said. It would have been helpful if he gave us more information to back up his position.  Bob stepped in an pointed us in a helpful direction. David's posts highlights for us there are things we just take for granted as being what we have always read or being taught or told but there might just be other views we have simply not come across yet. 

Good thoughts!

Personally, I think the dictionaries mentioned do not want to get into the weeds of when the 50 day count starts.  They just use “Passover”.  And that term has various meanings.  It could refer to the whole 8 day period of Passover plus the 7 day Feast of Unleavened Bread.  We know that the start of the 50 day count starts within this timeframe, but there are 2 different opinions on the exact start date.  I think some of the dictionaries are possibly using Passover in this more general 8 day sense, without wanting to get into the weeds of an exact starting day.

But if you want a 50 day count, then, you need one specific day to start the count.

So, I’m not advocating for anything, just trying to provide some information.

Again from Lev. 23:15-16

“You shall count seven full weeks from the day after the Sabbath, from the day that you brought the sheaf of the wave offering. You shall count fifty days to the day after the seventh Sabbath. Then you shall present a grain offering of new grain to the Lord.

 The start is the day that you brought the sheaf of the wave offering.  That is at least 2 days after Nisan 14 and possibly up to 6 days, depending on your viewpoint.  All within the 8 day Passover (meaning Passover plus the 7 day Feast of Unleavened Bread).

Bob

Posts 2286
Joseph Turner | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, May 26 2021 4:36 AM

DIsciple II:

Joseph Turner:
This is where I was confused.  Even Anchor Bible Dictionary has it as stated in the quoted material from the OP, and in light of Bob's explanation above which seems to indicate some ambiguity, I couldn't understand why David took such offense to the highlighted portions.  

I would be none the wiser of this alternative position if he did not raise his concerns. While for me this particular issue doesn't impact the conviction of my faith I understand and respect David's desire for things to be spoken of accurately. I don't hold a position at this point in time on what I would see as the correct understanding and suspect the writer of the blog was like you and I Joseph and not aware of there being anything different to what AYBD or other such bible encyclopaedias commonly state.

I do respect though David holds a strong position on this point and so a red flag was raised for him. He was not giving a critique of another users personal beliefs but of something FL posted as being factual on their blog so personally I have no issue with him saying he disagrees with what the post said. It would have been helpful if he gave us more information to back up his position.  Bob stepped in an pointed us in a helpful direction. David's posts highlights for us there are things we just take for granted as being what we have always read or being taught or told but there might just be other views we have simply not come across yet. 

Oh yes, and I didn't mean anything negative about his post.  If it is indeed wrong, then that would be a problem; however, as Bob explains well here:

Bob:

Personally, I think the dictionaries mentioned do not want to get into the weeds of when the 50 day count starts.  They just use “Passover”.  And that term has various meanings.  It could refer to the whole 8 day period of Passover plus the 7 day Feast of Unleavened Bread.  We know that the start of the 50 day count starts within this timeframe, but there are 2 different opinions on the exact start date.  I think some of the dictionaries are possibly using Passover in this more general 8 day sense, without wanting to get into the weeds of an exact starting day.

But if you want a 50 day count, then, you need one specific day to start the count.

So, I’m not advocating for anything, just trying to provide some information.

Again from Lev. 23:15-16

“You shall count seven full weeks from the day after the Sabbath, from the day that you brought the sheaf of the wave offering. You shall count fifty days to the day after the seventh Sabbath. Then you shall present a grain offering of new grain to the Lord.

 The start is the day that you brought the sheaf of the wave offering.  That is at least 2 days after Nisan 14 and possibly up to 6 days, depending on your viewpoint.  All within the 8 day Passover (meaning Passover plus the 7 day Feast of Unleavened Bread).

I think there is some ambiguity, and I am keen to hear David's response for further insight.  If I have time today, I may do some deeper investigating.  Admittedly, this is an area about which I should know more (feasts and festivals).

Disclaimer:  I hate using messaging, texting, and email for real communication.  If anything that I type to you seems like anything other than humble and respectful, then I have not done a good job typing my thoughts.

Posts 5420
David Paul | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, May 27 2021 1:43 AM

Bob addressed the first mistake. The count to fifty begins with the day after the weekly Sabbath that falls during the week of unleavened bread. The Jews do the count incorrectly. The way they "count" always falls on Sivan 6, which precludes the need or reason for counting. Another reason they count it wrong is because counting it correctly means the fiftieth day will always fall on the first day of the week, which creates two consecutive Sabbaths (the weekly, followed by a yearly high day). The Rabbis invented the concept of calendrical "postponements" in order to specifically prevent two consecutive Sabbaths from occurring. So Rabbinic thought is constitutionally averse to the correct method for counting fifty.

The second issue comes down to having correct terminology, which most people for some reason don't seem able to grasp. Some days that are moh`:adhiym (appointed days) are hhaghgiym (feasts) and some are not. Some moh`:adhiym are yearly Sabbaths (there are seven yearly Sabbaths) and some are not. These two facts seem to pass over (I guess the pun can be intended here) people's heads. Notice this other snippet from the blog post.

To start, the pink statement is embarrassingly incorrect. The Hebrew word for "feast" is hhagh, not moh`eidh. Moh`eidh does indeed mean "appointed time", and a moh'eidh may be a hhagh, but a moh'eidh does not have to be a hhagh. Stated in English, an appointed time does not have to be a feast. For example, (yet another error in the article), the day called "Feast of Firstfruits" above in orange, IS NOWHERE CALLED A FEAST IN THE BIBLE. In fact, the day she (the author) is intending to describe isn't anywhere called "firstfruits" (the Hebrew word is bikhkuuriym) in Tanakh either. She is attempting to identify the day known by some as "Wavesheaf", or as I refer to it, `ohmer rei'shiytth (the first sheaf), which is the term used in Lev. 23:10. Calling the day of Wavesheaf or `ohmer rei'shiytth "the Feast of Firstfruits" is simply unbiblical. Feasts (hhaghgiym) are times of collective assemblies. There is no such collective assembly called for in Scripture on the day of Wavesheaf.

Nehemia Gordon, the well-known Karaite, said on his old website (going back about 10-12 years; not sure if he still maintains this view) that Passover was not a feast day. Actually, Pessahh is called a hhagh in Exo. 34:25. It is possible he meant to say something else. The Bible refers to days that are called miq:raa'eiy qohdesh (holy convocations, or literally, "called assemblies of holiness"). The noun miq:raa' (a "called assembly") comes from the verb qaaraa', which means "to call" or "call together". For that matter, "Karaite" also comes from the word qaaraa', since miq:raa' is also a term used for the Scriptures, as they were "called out" in front of the "called together" congregation. Karaite thus means "Scripturalist", as opposed to those who follows Rabbinic interpretations. There are eight days which are given the description of miq:raa'eiy qohdesh (holy convocations). The first is the weekly Sabbath (Lev. 23:3 NASB). The next verse (Lev. 23:4 NASB) sets up the description of the remaining seven yearly Sabbaths, aka the "high days" (Jn. 19:31 NASB), or holy days. The seven yearly holy convocations are listed in Lev. 23:7, 8, 21, 24, 27, 35, 36. Specifically, they are:

1) First day of Feast of Unleavened Bread (mentioned in verse 6)
2) Seventh (Last) day of Feast of Unleavened Bread
3) Feast of Weeks (aka Pentecost)
=============================================================
4) Day of Shouting (aka Feast of Trumpets)
5) Day of Atonements (plural--Jews and Christians universally overlook this fact)
6) First Day of Feast of Booths (aka Feast of Tabernacles)
7) Last Great Day (aka Eighth day of the Feast)

It should be obvious, since it is a day associated with fasting, but Atonements is not a feast even though it is a holy convocation.

Noticeably absent from this list: Pessahh (Passover) and `Ohmer Rei'shiytth (Wavesheaf). It is possible that Gordon was trying to make this point, that Passover is not a holy convocation. That is true, but it is also a feast. Everyone needs to be crystal clear on this point: the ONLY "seven set times" (see the yellow phrase in the pic above) to be found in Lev. 23 are the seven yearly Sabbaths listed above. Passover is NOT a yearly sabbath. Wavesheaf is NOT a yearly Sabbath. Both are appointed times, one is a feast, and neither are called holy convocations. Each of the colored boxes in the pic above, therefore, provides inaccurate information. I could also have made a colored box for the statement "four in the spring...three in the fall", since a look at the above list clearly shows that there are two in the early spring (1 & 2), one in the late spring (3 total), and four in the fall.

Looking again at the original pic...

Based on what was just covered, Pentecost is the third feast (Passover is first, Unleavened Bread is second). Pentecost is also the third holy convocation (First ULB and Last ULB are first and second). In just these two paragraphs, there are six different errors...the five I marked and the sixth I mentioned earlier. To be fair, even most of the people that I know who keep these moh`eidhiym don't accurately identify them, describe them, or number them. The reason is because bad information gets published and republished again and again and again, and it just keeps being regurgitated with anyone bothering to just read the Book and do a simple breakdown. I have been keeping these feasts and holy days for almost 35 years. I know some may think I'm being picky, and they're absolutely right. I think it's important to use the Bible's own terminology when describing the Bible. Errors, no matter how small, have a tendency to multiply and replicate and pile up, and in time these "insignificant" errors result in perspectives that lose contact with the Bible's prophetic intentions and purposes.

If someone wants to "count" all of the yearly moh`eidhiym (not including the weekly Sabbath), they are:

1) Passover
2) First Day of ULB (7-day period)
3) Wavesheaf
4) Last Day of ULB
5) Weeks/Pentecost
6) Shouting/Trumpets
7) Atonements
8) Tabernacles (7-day period)
9) Last Great Day

A day which doesn't get explicitly mentioned in Lev. 23 but which is crucial for determining every single day on the list is Hhohdesh, the new moon. It is elsewhere spoken of as having many of the same attributes as the other Sabbaths. 2 Sam. 20:5ff shows the day being particularly observed as a two-day festival with expected attendance. The reason the observance is two days is because it isn't known if there will be the requisite two witnesses of the expected crescent on the first evening (due to weather and the fact that the moon's cycle is 29.5 days). If the crescent moon isn't observed on the first day, it is automatically determined to begin the second day. Amos 8:5 describes hhohdesh as having the same "no work" criterion assigned to it as the Sabbath.

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Joseph Turner | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, May 27 2021 5:02 AM

Thank you David for your detailed explanation!  I'll have to take some time to digest it.

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Posts 139
Bob | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, May 27 2021 9:15 AM

David Paul:

The count to fifty begins with the day after the weekly Sabbath that falls during the week of unleavened bread. 

Thanks David for that explanation!  

Do you have any insights into how the Wavesheaf day came to be determined using the weekly Sabbath in the week of Unleavened Bread?

All Lev. 23:11 says is "on the day after the Sabbath".  

I've always been curious as to how/when/why it ended up being the Sabbath in the week of Unleavened Bread.

Thanks,

Bob

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