Removing the Store (cart) icon in Logos 9

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Posts 1829
Rick | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, May 26 2021 7:34 AM

Phil Gons (Faithlife):

Not true. Look at the screenshot I shared. It was both in the Tools menu and on the main toolbar.

I see it now, my bad. But, I still believe it is overkill.

Posts 227
Tony Walker | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, May 26 2021 7:36 AM

I wonder how many pastors in these forums take up an offering every Sunday morning? And I wonder how many would immediately remove it if a member said they'd never give to an offering and they didn't come to church to hear about an offering?

Lol, I'm depressed, frustrated to the point of tears, trying to feed a family of 6 on a meager church income, crying to my wife about the pressures of being in the ministry, working for a church that has turned the work of Christ into a burden instead of a blessing... and I come here and see grown men whine about an icon that is no bigger than the profile picture icon next to it. Oh, the struggles of life. 

Posts 1252
David Wanat | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, May 26 2021 7:55 AM

Tony Walker:

I wonder how many pastors in these forums take up an offering every Sunday morning? And I wonder how many would immediately remove it if a member said they'd never give to an offering and they didn't come to church to hear about an offering?

Lol, I'm depressed, frustrated to the point of tears, trying to feed a family of 6 on a meager church income, crying to my wife about the pressures of being in the ministry, working for a church that has turned the work of Christ into a burden instead of a blessing... and I come here and see grown men whine about an icon that is no bigger than the profile picture icon next to it. Oh, the struggles of life. 

Making the #firstworldproblem hashtag more verbose doesn’t make it less annoying than the dismissive hashtag.

Now I don’t personally care if the icon remains or is removed. I don’t find it intrusive, and probably won’t provided it doesn’t start pop up stuff. But people have made substantial investments in the program and don’t like to see what they see as a step backwards. They have that right.

WIN 10 i7 9750H, RTX 2060, 16GB RAM | iPad Air 3
Verbum 9 Ultimate

Posts 1829
Rick | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, May 26 2021 7:57 AM

On more thought, I think that for me, it is the image of a shopping cart that I feel irritates me the most. In Libronix it was just the image of a lock that simply said "Unlock". I know this sounds pitiful and that its probably just me but my brain translates the shopping cart the same way it translates spam emails. Always, trying to get me to buy something. An in your face ad, so to speak.

Maybe I didn't notice it in Libronix because it was just a lock. My brain translates that differently. Am I correct in recalling that when I installed Libronix from discs, it also installed a lot of books that were locked as well? I'm thinking it was helpful to keep us from having to download over slow internet connections back then. If I am recalling that correctly, I probably saw the lock icon as an actual tool to unlock a book that was already on my computer, I just needed to use the lock tool to unlock it. It was an actual tool. Now, with broadband, that function is no longer necessary, for me anyhow. It is like going to a furniture store and the sales person is constantly tagging along and won't let you just browse. I usually end up leaving and going somewhere else. That's what all of these store links within the software remind me of.

Now, with all of the other links to the store within the software, this seems to be excessive to me. As I said earlier, I know my brain works a bit differently and for others this is laughable, but it is how I interpret it.

Posts 1829
Rick | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, May 26 2021 8:00 AM

Tony Walker:
I wonder how many pastors in these forums take up an offering every Sunday morning? And I wonder how many would immediately remove it if a member said they'd never give to an offering and they didn't come to church to hear about an offering?

As a layperson, if I had already paid thousands of dollars up front to attend that pastor's church and he kept pushing a collection plate in my face, I'd find another church.

Posts 2402
David Thomas | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, May 26 2021 8:01 AM

Tony Walker:
I'm depressed, frustrated to the point of tears, trying to feed a family of 6 on a meager church income, crying to my wife about the pressures of being in the ministry, working for a church that has turned the work of Christ into a burden instead of a blessing

Praying for you, brother! May the Joy of your salvation and the honor of your calling rise above the pain and tension you are facing.

Making Disciples!  Logos Ecosystem = Logos8 on Microsoft Surface Pro 4 (Win10), Android app on tablet, FSB on iPhone, [deprecated] Windows App, Proclaim, Faithlife.com, FaithlifeTV via Connect subscription.

Posts 1252
David Wanat | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, May 26 2021 8:07 AM

Rick:

Maybe I didn't notice it in Libronix because it was just a lock. My brain translates that differently. Am I correct in recalling that when I installed Libronix from discs, it also installed a lot of books that were locked as well? I'm thinking it was helpful to keep us from having to download over slow internet connections back then. If I am recalling that correctly, I probably saw the lock icon as an actual tool to unlock a book that was already on my computer, I just needed to use the lock tool to unlock it. It was an actual tool. Now, with broadband, that function is no longer necessary, for me anyhow. It is like going to a furniture store and the sales person is constantly tagging along and won't let you just browse. I usually end up leaving and going somewhere else. That's what all of these store links within the software remind me of.

I imagine it’s also possible that in the image, our attention was drawn to the drop down menu.

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Verbum 9 Ultimate

Posts 1188
Kiyah | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, May 26 2021 9:38 AM

Tony Walker:

I wonder how many pastors in these forums take up an offering every Sunday morning? And I wonder how many would immediately remove it if a member said they'd never give to an offering and they didn't come to church to hear about an offering?

Lol, I'm depressed, frustrated to the point of tears, trying to feed a family of 6 on a meager church income, crying to my wife about the pressures of being in the ministry, working for a church that has turned the work of Christ into a burden instead of a blessing... and I come here and see grown men whine about an icon that is no bigger than the profile picture icon next to it. Oh, the struggles of life. 

If you've already made pledges to the capital campaign, the church scholarship fund, general budget, benevolence, missions, and you do so every year, and then special collections for women's day, men's day, pastor's anniversary celebration, and you go to revival week events and they take up multiple collections each day of revival, and then every Sunday service the pastor passes the plate 5 times throughout the service, you might complain at some point as well. 

But your point is not even analogous because we are Faithlife's CUSTOMERS, not their congregation. We get to complain when we believe that a company we've already invested heavily in is not listening to us. "You'll get used to it" is not really what I want to hear from a company I'm giving money to when I raise an issue with their product. I'm glad Phil is now considering customization, but his initial response in another forum thread was basically just "get used to it."

Posts 2157
Kenneth Neighoff | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, May 26 2021 9:48 AM

I do not feel as if I am being sold something every time I open Logos because a store icon is on the tool bar.  

To me it does not interfere or get in the way of my studies.  

For me I use this quote a lot as a filter- 

“In essentials, unity; in non-essentials, liberty; in all things, charity.”

To me the store icon falls under the "in all things" category. 

Posts 1252
David Wanat | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, May 26 2021 10:09 AM

Kenneth Neighoff:

I do not feel as if I am being sold something every time I open Logos because a store icon is on the tool bar.  

To me it does not interfere or get in the way of my studies.  

For me I use this quote a lot as a filter- 

“In essentials, unity; in non-essentials, liberty; in all things, charity.”

To me the store icon falls under the "in all things" category. 

Of course if the icon is nonessential, perhaps liberty over whether to display applies? Wink

WIN 10 i7 9750H, RTX 2060, 16GB RAM | iPad Air 3
Verbum 9 Ultimate

Posts 1188
Kiyah | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, May 26 2021 10:10 AM

Kenneth Neighoff:

I do not feel as if I am being sold something every time I open Logos because a store icon is on the tool bar.  

To me it does not interfere or get in the way of my studies.  

For me I use this quote a lot as a filter- 

“In essentials, unity; in non-essentials, liberty; in all things, charity.”

To me the store icon falls under the "in all things" category. 

We all work differently. That's why customization makes sense. Customization would be what charity looks like in this situation. For people who like or don't mind it, they can keep it, for people who don't want it, they can remove it. Problem solved.

Posts 3131
Beloved Amodeo | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, May 26 2021 10:34 AM

I imagine FL is disturbed by all the hubbub. Whether it stays or goes makes no difference to me. My Library is 17,000+. I'm very choosy about what I add to it nowadays.

Meanwhile, Jesus kept on growing wiser and more mature, and in favor with God and his fellow man.

International Standard Version. (2011). (Lk 2:52). Yorba Linda, CA: ISV Foundation.

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Posts 286
James Hudson | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, May 26 2021 11:36 AM

Phil Gons (Faithlife):
We're considering a setting/customization option

Not sure what there is to "consider", but thanks anyway!

Phil Gons (Faithlife):
As far as I know, no one seemed to mind then.

Maybe it was because the icons of Libby were all standard, regularly-spaced, small windows toolbar icons, not the huge ones now with large spacing. Also space wasn't so much of a premium in those days!

Also things change - we need to be forward rather than backward looking!!!

I really hope you read all the comments of users [I think happy users are your best sales people - not cart icons!].

PS I have no objection to a cart icon - it's just its position -  taking up so much real estate - put as many as you like in menus!. My main gripe is that having already complained about lack of space in the Logos 9 toolbar (together with other users), you seem to have ignored, or not understood the complaint, but rather made it worse rather than better by adding extra, unrequested icons! To state it clearly (from my perspective), there is not enough space on the toolbar, and the space that is there is wasted!

Customization is essential - and seemingly your best option - those that don't want icons can hide the ones they want and those that like them can keep them.

I can't remember but it may have been you who mentioned consistency in user interface as a goal - but this toolbar is not consistent - different sized icons, different spacing, some words, some icons etc - a little bit of a mess! Give the users customization options - PLEASE!

Thanks for taking the time to read this - although we may have different perspectives, I'm sure we both have the same goal in mind - to make Logos Bible Software best serve the Church (sounds like your stated aim!)

Every blessing,

James

Posts 2198
Mark | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, May 26 2021 12:19 PM

Tony Walker:
I wonder how many pastors in these forums take up an offering every Sunday morning? And I wonder how many would immediately remove it if a member said they'd never give to an offering and they didn't come to church to hear about an offering?

This would not happen in many churches I have ministered in because the offering is not pushed on anyone, not even passed around.  It appears to me that the problem is with the method that produces a "I feel pressured" response instead of a free will response.

Tony Walker:
and I come here and see grown men whine about an icon that is no bigger than the profile picture icon next to it.

For me, the issue is space in the tool bar.  If I want it there, allow me to put it there.  I need more space made available.  I think a legitimate constructive complaint was made and it is good to get the opinion of others on it.

Posts 1188
Kiyah | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, May 26 2021 2:42 PM

James Hudson:

Phil Gons (Faithlife):
We're considering a setting/customization option

Not sure what there is to "consider", but thanks anyway!

Phil Gons (Faithlife):
As far as I know, no one seemed to mind then.

Maybe it was because the icons of Libby were all standard, regularly-spaced, small windows toolbar icons, not the huge ones now with large spacing. Also space wasn't so much of a premium in those days!

Also things change - we need to be forward rather than backward looking!!!

I really hope you read all the comments of users [I think happy users are your best sales people - not cart icons!].

PS I have no objection to a cart icon - it's just its position -  taking up so much real estate - put as many as you like in menus!. My main gripe is that having already complained about lack of space in the Logos 9 toolbar (together with other users), you seem to have ignored, or not understood the complaint, but rather made it worse rather than better by adding extra, unrequested icons! To state it clearly (from my perspective), there is not enough space on the toolbar, and the space that is there is wasted!

Customization is essential - and seemingly your best option - those that don't want icons can hide the ones they want and those that like them can keep them.

I can't remember but it may have been you who mentioned consistency in user interface as a goal - but this toolbar is not consistent - different sized icons, different spacing, some words, some icons etc - a little bit of a mess! Give the users customization options - PLEASE!

Thanks for taking the time to read this - although we may have different perspectives, I'm sure we both have the same goal in mind - to make Logos Bible Software best serve the Church (sounds like your stated aim!)

Every blessing,

James

All of this. Well stated. Yes

Posts 5845
DIsciple II | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, May 26 2021 3:50 PM

But we had the option to customize the toolbar and remove it.. another fun fact that makes a big difference to your fun fact.  so you are comparing an apple cart with an orange cart Phil.  And you are also missing the wider problem that Faithlife is much more intrusive with the amount of advertising they do today - whether they want to admit it or not - and some people are simply over it.  FL should not be surprised by backlash against this move by FL.

Phil Gons (Faithlife):

We're considering a setting/customization option. Fun fact: this was a part of the toolbar in Libronix two decades ago: https://blog.logos.com/how_to_unlock_locked_resources/. As far as I know, no one seemed to mind then.

Unlock Resources

Posts 5845
DIsciple II | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, May 26 2021 3:57 PM

Tony Walker:
I wonder how many pastors in these forums take up an offering every Sunday morning?

Very different scenario. Offerings are not taken up because the church is selling something to the congregation. We are giving to God in response to what he has already done for us. 

But sure this may not be the most significant issue in the world right now but people don't like what FL has done and should have the right to voice their concern..

Posts 233
cshover8669 | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, May 26 2021 4:10 PM

I hardly noticed it, so it didn't matter to me, and FL needs to make money. I almost cannot fault them for wanting to put a store icon there. However, toolbar real estate is at a premium, and there is not enough of it, so I would prefer more, and, as has been stated, the store is easy enough to get to. I have a shortcut to it on my browser toolbar, which is where it probably belongs. I also access it through links in emails when a marketing email has something I am interested in. I am not offended by it but would hide it if given the opportunity. I would probably hide the factbook icon and my account icon, moving to the drop-down menu with all the help screens and taking up less space. I know FL is investing in the factbook, but I usually need different or more information than it provides and ends up going elsewhere. So, leaving it on the tools menu would be perfect for me. I get annoyed when the go box expands and hides some of my toolbar stuff. I have to restart Logos to get it to shrink back down again. But, as I said, it didn't even phase me, so it would be nice to customize it into hiding, but the tool is too valuable for me to stress over it.

Posts 5546
SineNomine | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, May 26 2021 4:16 PM

As I've written elsewhere, when this was only a Beta issue:

SineNomine:
I don't like the new button at all and I really want to perma-hide mine.

At the same time, the number of people I know who use Logos/Verbum and whose degree of technological competency is sufficiently low that a button of this sort would be beneficial for them is non-zero, so I get what Faithlife is going for. I just think that the non-beta version needs to be better. A two item right click dropdown menu with "Go to store" and "Hide store button" (with a corresponding toggle in Program Settings for it so that it could also be turned back on as desired) would solve my problem.

SineNomine:
Phil Gons (Faithlife):
By what principles would we allow hiding the Store button but not the Sync button, the Profile menu, the Close All button, the Home button, or the Logos logo?

If all I ever use Logos/Verbum for is to study stuff, I will never use the Store button.

The Store button is for shopping.

Shopping can help with studying the Bible, but shopping is not part of studying the Bible, especially if I already have a Bible.

The Home screen, the Library icon, the Factbook button, the GO bar, the Docs button, the Guides button, the Tools button, my personal shortcuts, the Sync button, the Layouts button, and the Close All button all have their place(s) within the process of studying the Bible. The account icon lets me sign in and out, and clicking the triple dots gives me access to a bunch of things related to studying.

The Store button is the only clickable anything on that line that doesn't have a place within the process of studying as such.

But someone else put it more succinctly:

Dave Hooton:
Phil Gons (Faithlife):
By what principles would we allow hiding the Store button but not the Sync button, the Profile menu, the Close All button, the Home button, or the Logos logo?

Allow the Store button to be hidden irrespective of space considerations. It really has no place in the main toolbar.

Posts 326
Matt Hamrick | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, May 26 2021 4:47 PM

A little icon next to my close all button doesn't matter to be in any way shape or form. I am not sure what all the fuss is about. I would like the icon that does nothing be linked to the store. But I will never use the store in the software so it can reside wherever it wants.

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