The Custom of Barmitzvah

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Beloved Amodeo | Forum Activity | Posted: Wed, May 26 2021 11:04 AM

I understand that it is said that the custom of Barmitzvah is some 400 years old. Was this custom at all influenced by the account in the NT of Jesus being some 12 yrs old and going to the temple to sit among the teachers?

Meanwhile, Jesus kept on growing wiser and more mature, and in favor with God and his fellow man.

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David Wanat | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, May 26 2021 11:17 AM

Assuming I’m not missing the point of your question, I can’t imagine that Jews of 400 years ago would want to use the NT accounts as a source for their own rites.

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Beloved Amodeo | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, May 26 2021 11:27 AM

David Wanat:

Assuming I’m not missing the point of your question, I can’t imagine that Jews of 400 years ago would want to use the NT accounts as a source for their own rites.

You are not missing the point. But, following up then what is the source or basis for this tradition. Mishnah? Talmud? Other?

Meanwhile, Jesus kept on growing wiser and more mature, and in favor with God and his fellow man.

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David Wanat | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, May 26 2021 12:39 PM

No idea if the internet would provide the quality of sources you need, but with a Google search, I found this: https://www.myjewishlearning.com/article/history-of-bar-mitzvah/

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Beloved Amodeo | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, May 26 2021 1:29 PM

David Wanat:

No idea if the internet would provide the quality of sources you need, but with a Google search, I found this: https://www.myjewishlearning.com/article/history-of-bar-mitzvah/

Thank you, David I read with interest. It appears the authors of the Talmud did override the Old Testament for a reason left unclear and there is a year difference between the Ashkenazi and some Sephardic Jews. I was hoping that the Jewish Encyclopedia would have some information, but alas there was not a word. Wikipedia has an article, I got hung up on reading the lengthy article on Jewish Law which was said to govern the practice, but there is no direct coverage of the custom contained in that article. 

Perhaps one of our forum friends with direct knowledge of Judaism will leave a comment. If I were more enterprising I would investigate Poland and the intercourse of Polish Jews and Christians to find if there was a hidden or overt influence of one on the other. Since the stated influence from the article you cite directly mentions obligations to be called up for war and to pay taxes perhaps this was the stimulus for the drastic change from age 20 to age 13. Thanks again.

Meanwhile, Jesus kept on growing wiser and more mature, and in favor with God and his fellow man.

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MJ. Smith | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, May 26 2021 2:07 PM

Reformed Judaism on the topic: Origins of the Bar/Bat Mitzvah | Reform Judaism 

With reference to Talmudic times: History of Bar Mitzvah | My Jewish Learning

Orthodox Bishop Hilarion Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."

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Beloved Amodeo | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, May 26 2021 3:17 PM

MJ. Smith:

Reformed Judaism on the topic: Origins of the Bar/Bat Mitzvah | Reform Judaism 

With reference to Talmudic times: History of Bar Mitzvah | My Jewish Learning

Thanks, MJ. The Reformed article is thin on facts. An eye-opener is that Barmitzvah ceremony has been celebrated for those as old as 80. The Talmudic article is the same as the one David cites.

Meanwhile, Jesus kept on growing wiser and more mature, and in favor with God and his fellow man.

International Standard Version. (2011). (Lk 2:52). Yorba Linda, CA: ISV Foundation.

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Scott E. Mahle | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, May 26 2021 3:53 PM

Beloved Amodeo:

I was hoping that the Jewish Encyclopedia would have some information, but alas there was not a word. 

The Encyclopaedia of Judaism has information.

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Beloved Amodeo | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, May 26 2021 3:58 PM

Scott E. Mahle:

Beloved Amodeo:

I was hoping that the Jewish Encyclopedia would have some information, but alas there was not a word. 

The Encyclopaedia of Judaism has information.

Thanks for the correction, Scott! My spelling was at fault and I didn't get the name of the resource right.Embarrassed

Meanwhile, Jesus kept on growing wiser and more mature, and in favor with God and his fellow man.

International Standard Version. (2011). (Lk 2:52). Yorba Linda, CA: ISV Foundation.

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Beloved Amodeo | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, May 26 2021 4:35 PM

Beloved Amodeo:

Scott E. Mahle:

Beloved Amodeo:

I was hoping that the Jewish Encyclopedia would have some information, but alas there was not a word. 

The Encyclopaedia of Judaism has information.

Thanks for the correction, Scott! My spelling was at fault and I didn't get the name of the resource right.Embarrassed

Excellent article. The works that were quoted were written after the NT accounts. Gen. Rabbah 300-500 CE and Pirkei de-Rabbi Eliezer 8th-9th Century. So, I still wonder about influence.

Meanwhile, Jesus kept on growing wiser and more mature, and in favor with God and his fellow man.

International Standard Version. (2011). (Lk 2:52). Yorba Linda, CA: ISV Foundation.

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MJ. Smith | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, May 26 2021 4:56 PM

Beloved Amodeo:
So, I still wonder about influence.

Are you possibly looking at this from the wrong perspective? Wouldn't it be more likely that the young Jewish boy Jesus went to the temple at age 12 because there was some "coming of age" rite in which he participated? Remember even when the US West was settled, 12 year olds were often treated as adults capable of heading a family of siblings. And Manasseh took the throne when he was twelve, Josiah at 12 was trying to stamp out idols ... 12 seems to have been a significant age in Biblical times.

Orthodox Bishop Hilarion Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."

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Beloved Amodeo | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, May 26 2021 5:03 PM

SineNomine:

This resource has info, too.

Jewish Traditions. Good! Do we have a Midrash in Logos?

Meanwhile, Jesus kept on growing wiser and more mature, and in favor with God and his fellow man.

International Standard Version. (2011). (Lk 2:52). Yorba Linda, CA: ISV Foundation.

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Beloved Amodeo | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, May 26 2021 5:08 PM

MJ. Smith:

Beloved Amodeo:
So, I still wonder about influence.

Are you possibly looking at this from the wrong perspective? Wouldn't it be more likely that the young Jewish boy Jesus went to the temple at age 12 because there was some "coming of age" rite in which he participated? Remember even when the US West was settled, 12 year olds were often treated as adults capable of heading a family of siblings. And Manasseh took the throne when he was twelve, Josiah at 12 was trying to stamp out idols ... 12 seems to have been a significant age in Biblical times.

I don't claim to be right. And I may very well be coming at this missing the Jewishness of Jesus. After all Jesus said he came in the volume of the book. I may be paraphrasing I'm quoting from memory.

Meanwhile, Jesus kept on growing wiser and more mature, and in favor with God and his fellow man.

International Standard Version. (2011). (Lk 2:52). Yorba Linda, CA: ISV Foundation.

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SineNomine | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, May 26 2021 5:10 PM

Beloved Amodeo:
Do we have a Midrash in Logos?

We do in Verbum! Wink

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Scott E. Mahle | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, May 26 2021 6:26 PM

Beloved Amodeo:

Scott E. Mahle:

Beloved Amodeo:

I was hoping that the Jewish Encyclopedia would have some information, but alas there was not a word. 

The Encyclopaedia of Judaism has information.

Thanks for the correction, Scott! My spelling was at fault and I didn't get the name of the resource right.Embarrassed

That really wasn’t meant to be a correction. The resource you mention, The Jewish Encyclopedia, also has a nice article you may find helpful.

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Beloved Amodeo | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, May 26 2021 6:52 PM

SineNomine:

Beloved Amodeo:
Do we have a Midrash in Logos?

We do in Verbum! Wink

I own it but I was looking for it in Logos. Thanks once again! Scott

Meanwhile, Jesus kept on growing wiser and more mature, and in favor with God and his fellow man.

International Standard Version. (2011). (Lk 2:52). Yorba Linda, CA: ISV Foundation.

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Keep Smiling 4 Jesus :) | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, May 26 2021 8:41 PM

Beloved Amodeo:
Do we have a Midrash in Logos?

Yes, Logos.com search for Midrash => https://www.logos.com/search?query=midrash&sortBy=Relevance&limit=60&page=1&ownership=all&geographicAvailability=all

FYI: Faithlife resources are also usable in Verbum (as Verbum resources are also usable in Logos).

Keep Smiling Smile

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