Effect of Windows 11 on operation of LOGOS?

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This post has 122 Replies | 5 Followers

Posts 269
Randall Lind | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Jul 6 2021 5:45 PM

I guessing my is 4th gen i5-4570 because all the 8th gen are i5-8xxx. I heard they are going to let 7th gen in.

Posts 5625
SineNomine | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Jul 7 2021 7:27 AM

Kiyah:
I'm just going by what's on their website.

As Randall noted, they recently changed their documentation to require TPM 2.0 rather than allowing 1.2.

“God watches over the affairs of those who truly love him without their worrying about them.”St. John of the Cross

Posts 269
Randall Lind | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Jul 7 2021 7:44 AM

SineNomine:

Microsoft does not require TPM 2.0 to run Windows 11. Microsoft requires TPM 1.2 to run Windows 11. Microsoft requires that new devices sold with Windows 11 already on them have TPM 2.0.

Microsoft doesn't require 8th gen or newer Intel chips for a device to run Windows 11, either.

Just because I and other can run the Dev version from Windows insider don't mean anything. I did get a message about my Optiplex but it installed Windows 11 anyway. Microsoft hasn't locked down Windows 11 yet. Once they lock it down you and I among millions of others may be out of luck. Some folks are stuck with the first version of Windows 10 cause they change some stuff that locked them out of updating.  Windows 10 is not bad. Another thing I heard only Windows 10 users get the free upgrade. So if you are on 7, 8 etc you need to upgrade to 10 get the digital license then install 11.

Posts 1298
Kiyah | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Jul 7 2021 12:10 PM

SineNomine:

Kiyah:
I'm just going by what's on their website.

As Randall noted, they recently changed their documentation to require TPM 2.0 rather than allowing 1.2.

I am aware that Microsoft changed their website to remove the soft floor TPM 2.0 / hard floor TPM 1.2 distinction and soley listed TPM 2.0 as the minimum requirement. I'm not sure what your point is though. My point was about what the current requirements are.

The change seems to support my point, if Windows 11 can run TPM 1.2, why are they requiring 2.0? What does 2.0 give you that 1.2 doesn't?

Everything seems to be aimed at confusing the average user and herding them into buying new PCs. As Randall said, the average user won't be aware of TPM or know what to do about that. As a result they'll most likely just buy a new PC like Microsoft is recommending on their website.

Posts 33837
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MJ. Smith | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Jul 7 2021 1:20 PM

Kiyah:
buy a new PC like Microsoft is recommending on their website.

I can't find this; do you have a link?

Orthodox Bishop Hilarion Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."

Posts 1298
Kiyah | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Jul 7 2021 2:37 PM

MJ. Smith:

Kiyah:
buy a new PC like Microsoft is recommending on their website.

I can't find this; do you have a link?

https://www.microsoft.com/en-us/windows/windows-11-specifications

Look at the first paragraph under specifications. I screenshot this in my previous post, but here's the quote:

"If your device does not meet these requirements, you may not be able to install Windows 11 on your device and might want to consider purchasing a new PC."

Posts 269
Randall Lind | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Jul 8 2021 11:04 AM

I am aware that Microsoft changed their website to remove the soft floor TPM 2.0 / hard floor TPM 1.2 distinction and soley listed TPM 2.0 as the minimum requirement. I'm not sure what your point is though. My point was about what the current requirements are.

The change seems to support my point, if Windows 11 can run TPM 1.2, why are they requiring 2.0? What does 2.0 give you that 1.2 doesn't?

My understanding and please correct me if I am wrong. TMP 1.2 is software related where TMP 2.0 is hardware base. It is built in to the cpu or a chip on your board. If this is all about security then hardware beats software. I am testing Windows 11 on a 4th gen i5 with TMP 1.2  but when release I will more likely need to go back to 10 or get a new machine. I didn't hack it Windows insider allowed it to install. 

Posts 1298
Kiyah | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Jul 8 2021 12:28 PM

Randall Lind:

I am aware that Microsoft changed their website to remove the soft floor TPM 2.0 / hard floor TPM 1.2 distinction and soley listed TPM 2.0 as the minimum requirement. I'm not sure what your point is though. My point was about what the current requirements are.

The change seems to support my point, if Windows 11 can run TPM 1.2, why are they requiring 2.0? What does 2.0 give you that 1.2 doesn't?

My understanding and please correct me if I am wrong. TMP 1.2 is software related where TMP 2.0 is hardware base. It is built in to the cpu or a chip on your board. If this is all about security then hardware beats software. I am testing Windows 11 on a 4th gen i5 with TMP 1.2  but when release I will more likely need to go back to 10 or get a new machine. I didn't hack it Windows insider allowed it to install. 

I'm certainly not the expert on TPM but based on what I've read so far I don't think that's the difference. I think they can both either be software or hardware related, but that Microsoft began requiring OEMs to ship PCs with the hardware method because it's more secure. The problem is that the module may or may not be enabled on people's PCs. Most people won't need to buy a TPM chip but just need to go into their bios and enable the module they already have.

I think Microsoft wants everyone to have the latest version (2.0) and have it enabled for increased security (if you assume that a higher version number equals more security than a lower version number). But that was my original question: if 1.2 was the hard floor originally, why was the hard floor later changed to 2.0? Why did 1.2 magically become inadequate?

Posts 269
Randall Lind | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Jul 8 2021 4:20 PM

TPM 1.2 was the soft floor and 2.0 was the hard floor. Then after the backlash of the upgrade tool and TPM they removed the soft floor and just left 2.0 in place.

Posts 387
danwdoo | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Jul 8 2021 10:26 PM

Kiyah:
My understanding and please correct me if I am wrong. TMP 1.2 is software related where TMP 2.0 is hardware base. It is built in to the cpu or a chip on your board.

Both are hardware based, either via a separate chip (typically older systems) or supported by integration of a TPM into the CPU itself (Newer systems). If you are bored and really want to get lost in the weeds, here is an article from Dell discussing the differences between 1.2 and 2.0.

https://www.dell.com/support/kbdoc/en-us/000131631/tpm-1-2-vs-2-0-features

Microsoft's reasons for the requirement are definitely security based, but their communication thus far has left much to be desired.

Posts 269
Randall Lind | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Jul 10 2021 8:00 AM

danwdoo:

Both are hardware based, either via a separate chip (typically older systems) or supported by integration of a TPM into the CPU itself (Newer systems). If you are bored and really want to get lost in the weeds, here is an article from Dell discussing the differences between 1.2 and 2.0.

https://www.dell.com/support/kbdoc/en-us/000131631/tpm-1-2-vs-2-0-features

Microsoft's reasons for the requirement are definitely security based, but their communication thus far has left much to be desired.

I think TMP 1.2. is still software base on this

How is Discrete TPM 2.0 different from a firmware TPM (fTPM)?

A firmware-based TPM (fTPM) is a TPM that operates using the resources and context of a multi-function/feature compute device (such as an SoC, CPU, or other similar compute environment).

A discrete TPM is implemented as an isolated, separate function/feature chip, with all necessary compute resources contained within the discrete physical chip package. A discrete TPM has full control of dedicated internal resources (such as volatile memory, non-volatile memory, and cryptographic logic), and it is the only function accessing and utilizing those resources.

A firmware based TPM does not have its own dedicated storage. It relies on OS and platform services to provide it access to storage within the platform. One of the implications of not having dedicated storage involves the presence of an Endorsement Key (EK) certificate. Discrete TPM devices can be delivered by the TPM manufacturer to the platform manufacturer with an EK certificate installed in the TPM storage for the TPM Endorsement Key. This is not possible with a firmware TPM. Firmware TPM vendors make certificates available to end users through manufacturer specific process. To acquire the EK certificate for a system, platform owners need to contact the chipset/CPU vendor for that platform

Additionally, a TCG Certified discrete TPM is required to meet compliance and security requirements including hardening of the chip and its internal resources similar to smart cards. TCG compliance verifies the TPM correctly implements the TCG specifications. The hardening required by TCG certification allows a Certified discrete TPM to protect itself against more complicated physical attacks.

Firmware is software and it only mentions 2.0 being different. So This leads me to believe TMP 1.2 is software. Firmware is software it tells your computer hardware what to do. That may be simple but without it your computer would be useless...

Posts 269
Randall Lind | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Jul 10 2021 9:51 AM

Posts 387
danwdoo | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Jul 10 2021 10:33 AM

Randall Lind:
I think TMP 1.2. is still software base on this

You're confusing software control and storage of the keys in the firmware with pure software functionality. TPM 1.2 could be a separate (discrete) chip or an integrated function of the chipset/CPU and firmware. One of my desktops had a separate 1.2 TPM chip that I added several years ago (you can easily buy them from Amazon) for drive encryption. There are many integrated features of the CPU/chipset which are configured in the firmware (such as virtualization) but they still have hardware components that require support built into the CPU/chipset. The firmware only stores the keys (hence why it says firmware TPMs don't have dedicated storage). While the firmware TPN does not have its own storage for the encryption keys as stated in the Dell article, the TPN functionality still relies on the integrated hardware capabilities that are only available in CPUs with an integrated Trusted Execution Function. If this was purely a software feature, a simple firmware update would allow every PC to have TPM functionality, which is definitely not the case. The following article explains the 3 types of TPN. The firmware solution requires a newer CPU that contains an integrated Trusted execution mode built into it or the supporting chipset.

Discrete, Integrated or Firmware TPM?

There are three implementation options for TPMs:

  • Discrete TPM chip as a separate component in its own semiconductor package

  • Integrated TPM solution, using dedicated hardware integrated into one or more semiconductor packages alongside, but logically separate from, other components

  • Firmware TPM solution, running the TPM in firmware in a Trusted Execution mode of a general purpose computation unit

Windows uses any compatible TPM in the same way. Microsoft does not take a position on which way a TPM should be implemented and there is a wide ecosystem of available TPM solutions which should suit all needs.

https://docs.microsoft.com/en-us/windows/security/information-protection/tpm/tpm-recommendations

Posts 269
Randall Lind | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Jul 10 2021 11:42 AM

Really doesn't matter looks like if I want 11 I need a new machine either way. LOL

Posts 387
danwdoo | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Jul 10 2021 11:50 AM

True, that!

Posts 597
J. Remington Bowling | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Jul 16 2021 9:25 PM

Randall Lind:

Really doesn't matter looks like if I want 11 I need a new machine either way. LOL

I haven't bothered to read through all the pages in this thread, so maybe you've already ruled this out, but check your bios settings. On some computers the feature may be available but off by default.

Potato resting atop 2020 Mac Pro stand.

Posts 269
Randall Lind | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Jul 17 2021 3:18 PM

J. Remington Bowling:

Randall Lind:

Really doesn't matter looks like if I want 11 I need a new machine either way. LOL

I haven't bothered to read through all the pages in this thread, so maybe you've already ruled this out, but check your bios settings. On some computers the feature may be available but off by default.

I have a 4th gen that runs the DEV of Windows 11. When they lock it down you will only be able to have a 7th or 8th gen as min. They are considering 7th gen. Not sure what that equal to in AMD. 

Posts 387
danwdoo | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Jul 17 2021 11:39 PM

But my 3rd gen is right out! =)

Posts 269
Randall Lind | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Jul 18 2021 7:52 AM

danwdoo:

But my 3rd gen is right out! =)

Personally, I think if you have at least TMP 1.2 regardless of what chip you should be able to run Windows 11. I did look on Amazon under $800 you can get a dell desktop or all-in-one with 10th gen. It doesn't state what TMP but I would guess it would have 2.0. I am thinking if they give a 4th stimulus I am going to buy a new PC. I am not a gamer so an all-in-one would be nice with at least a 512gb SSD. All I do is surf the net for the most part. The only programs I run is Logos and Quicken.

The only issue I have on my i5-4570 Dell Optiplex with Windows !! is the face I have to enable virus & threat protection when I restart my computer. No idea why it will not stay enabled. However when I enable it no issues until I need to restart again.

Posts 387
danwdoo | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Jul 18 2021 10:34 PM

We'll just have to see how much they budge, if at all. I do understand that more recent processors have additional security features and with security growing ever more important with ransomware and such they may end up hold to there original plans. We'll see.

I have the same Windows 11 virus protection issue. I've read others do as well, so it appears to just be a beta quirk that should be resolved in a future build.

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