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Meeshell Biblestudy | Forum Activity | Posted: Wed, Jul 7 2021 7:11 AM

In LOGOS Daniel 9:27 "Desolation" is Shomam with NO VAV in it (See Picture)

But in the Green's interlinear it clearly has a VAV in it, and Jay Green translated it DESOLATOR (SEE PIC below).

So does that change the Hebrew parsing of the word?  In Logos it has Verb Qal Participle Masculine Singular absolute.
One is a condition = "desolation", and the other is a verbal adjective "desolator".  

Where did Green's source this translation and add a VAV??  THE ESV also translated it DESOLATOR.  Is there a source for that listed anywhere?

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SineNomine | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Jul 7 2021 7:29 AM

Meeshell Biblestudy:
In LOGOS

In what specific resource?

Posts 32
Meeshell Biblestudy | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Jul 7 2021 8:27 AM

In the Lexham Hebrew Bible.

Posts 93
Phil Quigley | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Jul 7 2021 8:49 AM

That character that you're saying is a nun is actually a vav or waw, depending on pronunciation you're following. And it appears to be a holem-waw or holem-vav. Which is when the vav is acting as an "o" type sound. It's not a nun. I say this because seeing that it's in the middle of the word there would be a small ledge at the bottom of the nun. In the final form the nun would look similar to the vav, but would actually extend below the line.

Posts 32
Meeshell Biblestudy | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Jul 7 2021 9:06 AM

OH yes you're right.  I keep saying NUN (even in my notes) but it's a VAV.  I don't know why I keep doing that lol
I corrected the original post, so it's not confusing.

Posts 32
Meeshell Biblestudy | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Jul 7 2021 11:33 AM

I think I found my answer.  The VAV does not change the verb parsing.

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Keep Smiling 4 Jesus :) | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Jul 7 2021 1:25 PM

SineNomine:

Meeshell Biblestudy:
In LOGOS

In what specific resource?

 עַל WITHIN {Milestone <Dn9.27>} shows none of the Hebrew Bibles in my Logos library have VAV in שׁמם  (searched for Hebrew Letters in preceding word due to variety of Hebrew Morphologies plus my personal unpointed Hebrew Bible only has surface text).

Screen shot includes Lexham Analytical Lexicon of the Hebrew Bible showing various inflected forms include VAV (pointing appears to me as holem-vav in middle of word).

Keep Smiling Smile

Posts 32
Meeshell Biblestudy | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Jul 8 2021 10:53 AM

Yes, I think it's very interesting that Green's changed it to add the VAV and then translated it DESOLATOR instead of desolation.  Thought that might have something to do with it.  I'll keep digging, and if they're any resources out there on Hebrew Qal participles using the VAV or not, maybe that would be telling.

Posts 93
Phil Quigley | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Jul 8 2021 11:35 AM

Quickly scanning Google, it appears that both Qal participle spellings--with the holam vav and without--appear in Biblical texts; however, always have the holam vav in Modern Hebrew. (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holam) I wonder if that's the difference. You'd have to look at all the manuscript evidence for this particular text. Also participles are verbal adjectives (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Participle), so it could be "desolating one" or "desolator." "Desolation" would also potentially be within the semantic range. I haven't studied this particular verse in depth. It's an interpretive decision as to what is being emphasized.

Posts 5416
David Paul | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Jul 8 2021 2:07 PM

Phil Quigley:

Quickly scanning Google, it appears that both Qal participle spellings--with the holam vav and without--appear in Biblical texts; however, always have the holam vav in Modern Hebrew. (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holam) I wonder if that's the difference. You'd have to look at all the manuscript evidence for this particular text. Also participles are verbal adjectives (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Participle), so it could be "desolating one" or "desolator." "Desolation" would also potentially be within the semantic range. I haven't studied this particular verse in depth. It's an interpretive decision as to what is being emphasized.

Generally speaking, there isn't any fundamental semantic change elicited by the presence or absence of "mothers of learning". When they are present, it is said the spelling is "full"; when they are absent, the spelling is called "defective" (a term I don't like, since in theory the language originated without the "mothers of learning"). Whether full or defective, the pronunciation of O-vowels is the same (long) and the meaning is not changed. [There may be some prophetic significance to MoLs, but up to now I haven't identified anything significant or persistent to that effect].

Generally speaking, MoLs increased in usage in the Bible after the exile, particularly in proper names. My name, David, for instance, changed from mostly defective in Samuel and Kings to being full in Chronicles.

Early (defective): Daawidh [ D W D ]  --  Late (full): Daawiydh [ D W Y D ]

In this case, the spelling does change the pronunciation, from Hebrew short-I  ("it") to Hebrew long-I ("eel").

It is the convention of Modern Hebrew to always spell words in full spelling w/ MoLs present, even in cases where certain words were historically only spelled defectively. There are some exceptions to this rule, particularly in Biblical and historical contexts.

I'm not sure what motivated Green to use the MoL (hhohlaam waaw) in his translation. I do know that vowels can change based on location within a sentence based on cantilation, but I'm not sure if that applies here (probably not). I haven't really studied cantillation much, so I'm not up to speed. It's on my to-do list, but it's not near the top. I do have a book that explains it...one of these days.

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Posts 32
Meeshell Biblestudy | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Jul 11 2021 9:44 AM

You think it might be recorded in the Massorah?

Posts 5416
David Paul | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Jul 11 2021 12:59 PM

If by "it" you mean Green's rationale/reason for using a full spelling, I doubt it, but if you have access to it, it's worth a shot.

I just checked in The Masorah of BHS by Mynatt, Crawford, and Kelley, and Daniel is not referenced at all in the Scripture index.

I made a brief scan of Massorah Gedolah by Weil and found a few references to Dan. 9, but nothing for verse 27. That said, my French is weak and it's not the easiest book to peruse.

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Posts 32
Meeshell Biblestudy | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Jul 12 2021 11:36 AM

Thank you for looking!    It's so difficult to manage Daniel in the Massorah because there's no English translation for Daniel.

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