Judges 19 all I can do is shake my head

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Randall Lind | Forum Activity | Posted: Thu, Jul 8 2021 5:53 PM

Judges 19 is crazy a man comes to stay the night then the town knocks on the door the man of the house offers his daughter and concubine. They took the concubine and had their way with her until she died. Then the master cut her up into 12 pieces and sent her throughout the land of Isreal.

WHAT THE HECK???  This is just insane.

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Allen Browne | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Jul 8 2021 6:09 PM

Randall Lind:
Judges 19 is crazy a man comes to stay the night then the town knocks on the door the man of the house offers his daughter and concubine. They took the concubine and had their way with her until she died. Then the master cut her up into 12 pieces and sent her throughout the land of Isreal.

WHAT THE HECK???  This is just insane.

Agreed, Randall. Your emotional reaction is completely appropriate.

So the question to ask is, "Why is the story being told this way? What is the author saying? Why is he stirring us up like this?"

Among the commentaries that will help you answer that question are:

And look for clues in the way the story is being told, e.g.:

  • The first verse of Judges 19 (compare the last phrase of the book).
  • Why am I told 23 times that this happened at Gibeah? Who came from there?

Hope that helps you to read the story well. Your question is crucial to understanding Judges as a whole.

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MJ. Smith | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Jul 8 2021 6:38 PM

Randall Lind:

Judges 19 is crazy a man comes to stay the night then the town knocks on the door the man of the house offers his daughter and concubine. They took the concubine and had their way with her until she died. Then the master cut her up into 12 pieces and sent her throughout the land of Isreal.

WHAT THE HECK???  This is just insane.

So what is your question related to Faithlife products and their use?

Orthodox Bishop Hilarion Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."

Posts 250
Randall Lind | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Jul 8 2021 7:24 PM

nothing that why I posted in this group. Maybe they need a  group to talk about the bible. I am reading the whole bible for first time and when I got to this chapter it just seems odd to me.

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Damian McGrath | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Jul 8 2021 7:42 PM

Randall Lind:

nothing that why I posted in this group. Maybe they need a  group to talk about the bible. I am reading the whole bible for first time and when I got to this chapter it just seems odd to me.

Randall are you using any resource to help as you read through the bible?

I heartily recommend Gordon Fee's How to Read the Bible Book by Book: https://www.logos.com/product/5439/how-to-read-the-bible-book-by-book 

For each book, it offers an overview, specific advice for how to read the book, and then a simple walk-though. So for the section on Judges 17:1-21:25 it says:


Note how this conclusion is carefully crafted around the phrase, “In those days Israel had no king; everyone did as [they] saw fit [what was right in their own eyes]” (17:6; 21:25; cf. 18:1; 19:1). With these words the narrator gives you the perspective from which the whole story has been told: Israel is in disarray; it has no central leadership—and no accepted central sanctuary, as had been commanded in Deuteronomy.


Thus, the first episode (ch. 17) in the first story illustrates Israel’s syncretism (Micah’s mother consecrates her silver to Yahweh for her son to make an idol), while the second (ch. 18) illustrates both the Danite context out of which Samson came and the unsettled conditions in Israel due to the failure of conquest with which the book began. Both episodes illustrate the failure of true worship in Israel.


The gruesome nature of the second story (chs. 19–21) illustrates both the depth of Israel’s remembered moral decay (see Hos 9:9–10) and the reality that she teeters regularly on the brink of intertribal war. Israel needs God’s appointed king.


Gordon D. Fee and Douglas K. Stuart, How to Read the Bible Book by Book: A Guided Tour (Grand Rapids, MI: Zondervan, 2002), 76–77.

 

Posts 107
Greg Dement | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Jul 8 2021 7:52 PM

Randall, this book doesn’t address Judges 19 specifically but it is relates to the broader issue of this “category“. It helped me. I know there are others I have that deal with this topic but I haven’t read them yet to be able to suggest.

https://www.logos.com/product/43185/is-god-a-moral-monster-making-sense-of-the-old-testament-god

Posts 429
DMB | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Jul 8 2021 8:03 PM

Allen Browne:
Why am I told 23 times that this happened at Gibeah? Who came from there?

Good point. Along the lines of losing his tribes complete genetic material ... and having to go get some more (women).

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MJ. Smith | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Jul 8 2021 8:36 PM

Randall Lind:
nothing that why I posted in this group. Maybe they need a  group to talk about the bible. I am reading the whole bible for first time and when I got to this chapter it just seems odd to me.

Faithlife does not provide a groups to talk about the Bible - it would quickly turn into chaos that makes Babel appear unified. That doesn't mean you can't ask for help identifying resources or tools to makes sense out of something that seems very strange. The answers you have received are all good examples of how the forums can be used to learn - what resources you may wish to add, what tools you may wish to explore.

Orthodox Bishop Hilarion Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."

Posts 250
Randall Lind | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Jul 8 2021 8:41 PM

Damian McGrath:

Randall Lind:

nothing that why I posted in this group. Maybe they need a  group to talk about the bible. I am reading the whole bible for first time and when I got to this chapter it just seems odd to me.

Randall are you using any resource to help as you read through the bible?

I heartily recommend Gordon Fee's How to Read the Bible Book by Book: https://www.logos.com/product/5439/how-to-read-the-bible-book-by-book 

For each book, it offers an overview, specific advice for how to read the book, and then a simple walk-though. So for the section on Judges 17:1-21:25 it says:


Note how this conclusion is carefully crafted around the phrase, “In those days Israel had no king; everyone did as [they] saw fit [what was right in their own eyes]” (17:6; 21:25; cf. 18:1; 19:1). With these words the narrator gives you the perspective from which the whole story has been told: Israel is in disarray; it has no central leadership—and no accepted central sanctuary, as had been commanded in Deuteronomy.


Thus, the first episode (ch. 17) in the first story illustrates Israel’s syncretism (Micah’s mother consecrates her silver to Yahweh for her son to make an idol), while the second (ch. 18) illustrates both the Danite context out of which Samson came and the unsettled conditions in Israel due to the failure of conquest with which the book began. Both episodes illustrate the failure of true worship in Israel.


The gruesome nature of the second story (chs. 19–21) illustrates both the depth of Israel’s remembered moral decay (see Hos 9:9–10) and the reality that she teeters regularly on the brink of intertribal war. Israel needs God’s appointed king.


Gordon D. Fee and Douglas K. Stuart, How to Read the Bible Book by Book: A Guided Tour (Grand Rapids, MI: Zondervan, 2002), 76–77.

 

No I am just reading straight through the 2nd time I am going to read and use Word Biblical Commentary or some other ones.

Posts 250
Randall Lind | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Jul 8 2021 8:46 PM

Allen Browne:

Randall Lind:
Judges 19 is crazy a man comes to stay the night then the town knocks on the door the man of the house offers his daughter and concubine. They took the concubine and had their way with her until she died. Then the master cut her up into 12 pieces and sent her throughout the land of Isreal.

WHAT THE HECK???  This is just insane.

Agreed, Randall. Your emotional reaction is completely appropriate.

So the question to ask is, "Why is the story being told this way? What is the author saying? Why is he stirring us up like this?"

Among the commentaries that will help you answer that question are:

And look for clues in the way the story is being told, e.g.:

  • The first verse of Judges 19 (compare the last phrase of the book).
  • Why am I told 23 times that this happened at Gibeah? Who came from there?

Hope that helps you to read the story well. Your question is crucial to understanding Judges as a whole.

The Preacher Commentary series volume 7  Judges / Ruth gives great more details.

Posts 2196
Mark | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Jul 8 2021 8:53 PM

Randall Lind:
No I am just reading straight through the 2nd time I am going to read and use Word Biblical Commentary or some other ones.

Welcome to the forums.  If you have Logos Bible Software, many resources will help with difficult and/or strange passages.  This one is certainly a strange one and as one resource mentioned above points out, the moral decay that eventually occurs when the Lord God is no longer acknowledged as king.

Posts 192
Thomas Pape | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Jul 8 2021 10:38 PM

I was irritated by many passages in Richter - and most of the comments were not so enlightening ... until I came across a Jewish explanation....
Ariel’s Bible Commentary: Judges and Ruth | Logos Bible Software

Posts 5416
David Paul | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Jul 9 2021 2:39 AM

Randall Lind:
WHAT THE HECK???  This is just insane.

Actually, it's just a morbid story. Just wait until you realize the cram-packed massive prophetic importance it plays in an even bigger...much, much bigger prophetic tableaux that will blow your mind. Then it will be insane...or at the very least "unbelievable".

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David Paul | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Jul 9 2021 2:54 AM

Damian McGrath:

The gruesome nature of the second story (chs. 19–21) illustrates both the depth of Israel’s remembered moral decay (see Hos 9:9–10) and the reality that she teeters regularly on the brink of intertribal war. Israel needs God’s appointed king.


Gordon D. Fee and Douglas K. Stuart, How to Read the Bible Book by Book: A Guided Tour (Grand Rapids, MI: Zondervan, 2002), 76–77.

Wow...that's Fee's take away?? That is pretty much as diametrically opposite to an appropriate conclusion as anyone could manufacture in light of what follows. Isa. 6:9 comes to mind. Roll Eyes How not to read the Bible? Tongue Tied

Now that I'm thinking of it, I think I may have actually cited this same comment in a note I attached to this pericope in my NASB...as an example of shockingly bad exegesis. Spooky bad.Surprise

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MJ. Smith | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Jul 9 2021 3:04 AM

David Paul:
.as an example of shockingly bad exegesis. Spooky bad.Surprise

This sort of evaluative statement knocking someone else's suggestion simply sparks out of bounds discussions - and undermines your credibility. You have interesting and useful perspectives ... please make us want to read them.

Orthodox Bishop Hilarion Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."

Posts 192
Thomas Pape | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Jul 9 2021 3:27 AM

@ David Paul
From the conclusions you describe, I love the Jewish explanatory perspective

Posts 5416
David Paul | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Jul 9 2021 3:32 AM

MJ. Smith:

David Paul:
.as an example of shockingly bad exegesis. Spooky bad.Surprise

This sort of evaluative statement knocking someone else's suggestion simply sparks out of bounds discussions - and undermines your credibility. You have interesting and useful perspectives ... please make us want to read them.

A bit of an ironic comment, as it is the credibility of my interesting and useful perspectives that prompted my comment. Rather than just blurt out the "why" of my statement, I left it others to cogitate on why I said it. It (the exegetical conclusion) is demonstrably poor, to put it mildly...it really shouldn't be that hard for most people to comprehend why if they follow the broader narrative.

That said, I understand why you said what you said, so I will accept the knuckle rap and provisionally Zip it!.

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Randall Lind | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Jul 9 2021 6:00 AM

I was lied too in Sunday School LOL I was always told the man that came to stay the night was an angle or perhaps Jesus and they stepped in and intervene. Unless that was another bible story. LOL I am remembering a lot of these stories being told to me as a kid in Sunday School as I keep reading the bible .

Posts 1251
David Wanat | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Jul 9 2021 6:31 AM

Since this is turning into a discussion anyway, I think that 19:1 and 21:25 are important. It sounds like disapproval of the situation in Israel described in chapters 19-21

Just my 2¢

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DMB | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Jul 9 2021 6:52 AM

Randall Lind:
I was always told the man that came to stay the night was an angle or perhaps Jesus and they stepped in and intervene. Unless that was another bible story.

That was Lot and his salty wife. 'Never look back.'

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