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Meeshell Biblestudy | Forum Activity | Posted: Tue, Jul 13 2021 12:16 PM

I was researching this word in Daniel "sealed up" from Daniel 12:4,9 and when I looked up the definition in the ESL I couldn't find where it was translated into the KJV (or any Bible) into the word "variant".

Here is the definiton:

2856 חָתַם [chatham /khaw·tham/] v. A primitive root; TWOT 780; GK 3159; 27 occurrences; AV translates as “seal” 18 times, “seal up” six times, “marked” once, “stopped” once, and “variant” once. 1 to seal, seal up, affix a seal. 1A (Qal). 1A1 to seal, affix one’s seal. 1A2 to seal up, fasten up by sealing. 1B (Niphal) to seal. 1C (Piel) to lock up. 1D (Hiphil) to be stopped.

Strong, J. (1995). Enhanced Strong’s Lexicon. Woodside Bible Fellowship.

Does anyone have a resource that might reference where this word was translated "variant"?  I checked the BDB but no luck.

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Graham Criddle | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Jul 13 2021 1:11 PM

I can't find any such reference - I think the ESL is incorrect.

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Meeshell Biblestudy | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Jul 13 2021 1:21 PM

I found the same definition on blue letter Bible too.

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NB.Mick | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Jul 13 2021 1:23 PM

Meeshell Biblestudy:
and “variant” once.

I think this got mangled up in the editing process. I ticked off all 27 occurrences of H2856 - and the ESL as all of the 26 others, but "make an end of" in he first part of Dan 9:24, which sometimes is translated with "stop" or "seal up" in other translations that do have H2856 in this place. Some don't (in Swete's LXX the alternative texts has it, the main doesn't), so my current thinking is that ESL didn't want to say that the translation was "variant", but that the one translation occurs in a textual variant (other textual traditions seem to read H8552 in this place, which looks quite similar to my untrained eye).

EDIT:

But I'm no longer sure. The ESL quite often says that something is translated "variant". I wondered whether this should just mean "in different ways" - which does work in the Dan 9:24 place, where AV reads "make an end of" in the text and "or: sealed up" in the margin. But this didn't seem to be true in other places where ESL says things are translated as "variant" - no margin notes. The counts of Strong numbers sometimes didn't match my inline search results in AV, AV 1873, KJV 1900, which may mean that ESL used Strongs counts from another text/morphology. And maybe that version had other margin notes.

Maybe it's simply time to lay Strongs to rest - it was a strong tool back in its time, but with Logos we can use lemmas and lexicons.  

Running Logos 9 latest (beta) version on Win 10

Posts 32
Meeshell Biblestudy | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Jul 13 2021 1:50 PM

OHHH!  So this translation of the Septuagint does NOT have it:

Daniel 9:24 (LES)
24 Seventy sevens have been decreed upon your people and upon the city, Zion, to complete the guilt and to deal with the unjust offenses and to wipe away the injustices and to fully understand the vision and to establish everlasting righteousness and to complete the visions and the prophet and to delight in the holy of holies.

But it is translated "seal up/seal" in this translation.  Is that what you think they are trying to say?

Daniel 9:24 (Brenton LXX En)
24 Seventy weeks have been determined upon thy people, and upon the holy city, for sin to be ended, and to seal up transgressions, and to blot out iniquities, and to make atonement for iniquities, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal the vision and the prophet, and to anoint the Most Holy.

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Meeshell Biblestudy | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Jul 13 2021 2:07 PM

Yes I would also like to know what text the Strong's counts came from as well.  But it's probably because Daniel is from the Septuagint anyway, and there are tons of variants, especially in Swete's.  Seems like Daniel got very different treatment as far as "original text" is concerned, if we only have the Greek to get the Hebrew/Aramaic.   We need a concordance just for Daniel!  Daniel 4 has like 10 verses missing from the Massoretic version.

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MJ. Smith | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Jul 13 2021 3:22 PM

The Relationship of the Different Editions of Daniel: A History of Scholarship (uni-muenchen.de) is a nice overview

Textual Variants Daniel’s 70 weeks, Susanna, Prayer of Hananiah, Bel and the dragon (bible.ca) may be of interest not for its content or interpretation but for showing the sources and effort for the comparison.

Orthodox Bishop Hilarion Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."

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DMB | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Jul 13 2021 3:32 PM

NB.Mick:
I think this got mangled up in the editing process. I ticked off all 27 occurrences of H2856 - and the ESL as all of the 26 others, but "make an end of" in he first part of Dan 9:24, which sometimes is translated with "stop" or "seal up"

I think your first idea was correct (don't know about 'mangled'). The AV's sourcing included the Vulgate/DR and used that varient at v24, which Strong might be referring to.

Regarding MT (later comment), can't see where the MT is missing verses in Dan 4 ... MT versification begins end of chap 3.

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Meeshell Biblestudy | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Jul 13 2021 5:54 PM

DMB:

Regarding MT (later comment), can't see where the MT is missing verses in Dan 4 ... MT versification begins end of chap 3.

KJV:

Daniel 4:31 (KJV 1900)
31 While the word was in the king’s mouth, there fell a voice from heaven, saying, O king Nebuchadnezzar, to thee it is spoken; The kingdom is departed from thee.

LES:

Daniel 4:28 (LES)
28 While the word was still in the mouth of the king, and upon the completion of his statement, he heard a voice that came from heaven, “Concerning you it is asserted, O King Nebuchadnezzar, that the kingdom of Babylon is taken away from you and is given to another person, to a scorned man in your palace. Behold, I am setting him up over your kingdom, and he will receive your authority and your honor and your delightful luxuries, so that you may know that the God of heaven holds authority among the dominion of mankind, and to whomever he may wish he gives it, as far as the sun rising another king will enjoy himself in your palace, and he will exercise the might of your splendor and your strength and your authority.

and this comparison:

Daniel 4:32 (KJV 1900)
32 And they shall drive thee from men, and thy dwelling shall be with the beasts of the field: they shall make thee to eat grass as oxen, and seven times shall pass over thee, until thou know that the most High ruleth in the kingdom of men, and giveth it to whomsoever he will.

LES:

Daniel 4:29 (LES)
29 And the holy messengers will pursue you over seven years, and during that time you will not appear at all, neither will you converse with any person; they will feed you grass just like an ox, and the tender green herbs and grass of the land will be your food. Behold, in place of your splendor, they will bind you with chains. Another will possess both your abode of soft delicacies and your kingdom.

and this verse in the LES has 3 verses:

Daniel 4:33 (KJV 1900)
33 The same hour was the thing fulfilled upon Nebuchadnezzar: and he was driven from men, and did eat grass as oxen, and his body was wet with the dew of heaven, till his hairs were grown like eagles’ feathers, and his nails like birds’ claws.

Then 3 missing verses:

Daniel 4:30a–30c (LES)
30 aI, Nebuchadnezzar, king of Babylon, was bound fast for seven years. They fed me grass like an ox, and from the tender grass of the earth I ate, and after seven years I gave my soul to prayer, and I presented a petition about my sin before the face of the Lord, the God of heaven, and concerning my ignorance of the God of gods, the great one, I prayed.
30 bAnd my hair became like the wings of an eagle, my nails like a lion. My flesh and my heart were changed. I walked around naked with the beasts of the earth. I saw a dream and suspicions of me took hold and in time sleep took hold of me, and a great drowsiness fell upon me.
30 cAnd at the completion of the seven years, my time of recovery came, and my sins and acts of my ignorance were brought to an end before the God of heaven, and I prayed concerning my sins against the great God of gods. And behold, a messenger addressed me from heaven, saying, “O Nebuchadnezzar, serve the holy God of heaven and give honor to the most high, for the royal dwelling of your nation is being given back to you.”

And three more missing verses:

Daniel 4:34–34c (LES)
34I confess and give thanks to the most high, and I praise the one who created the heaven and the earth and the seas and the rivers and everything in them. I acknowledge and I praise him, for he alone is God of gods and Lord of lords and king of kings, for he alone produces signs and wonders and alters the appointed times and seasons and durations of time, and removes the dominion of kings and establishes other kings in place of them.
34aFrom now on, I will serve him, and from the fear of him trembling has taken hold of me, and I praise all the holy ones. For the gods of the nations do not have in themselves power to turn away the kingdom of one king to another king, and to kill, and to make alive, and to make signs and wonders, great and fearful, and to change immensely great matters just as the God of heaven did with me. And he changed concerning me great matters, all the days of my kingdom, concerning my soul. I will offer fragrant sacrifices to the most high, to the Lord, and what is acceptable before him I will do, and my people, my nation and lands, those under my authority. And as many as have spoken to the God of heaven, and as many as might be caught speaking anything, these I will condemn to death.
34bAnd King Nebuchadnezzar wrote a circular letter to all the nations and territories and languages in every place, all who are living in all the territories, generations and generations. “Praise the Lord, the God of heaven. And bring to him sacrifices and offerings gloriously. I, the king of kings, confess openly, and thank him gloriously, because he has done thus with me. In the same day he seated me upon my throne, and of my authority and my kingdom among my people I prevailed, and my greatness was re-established to me.
34cI, King Nebuchadnezzar, to all the nations and all the territories and all those who dwell in them, peace to you be multiplied in all times. And now, I will show you the things that the great God has done with me. And it seemed good to me to show you and your wise men that God exists, and to show you his great wonders. His kingdom is a kingdom forever, his authority from generations to generations.” And he sent letters about everything that happened to him in his rule to all the nations, those being under his rule.

The KJV has some similar verses but they don't match up and are much shorter in the KJV:

Daniel 4:34–37 (KJV 1900)
34And at the end of the days I Nebuchadnezzar lifted up mine eyes unto heaven, and mine understanding returned unto me, and I blessed the most High, and I praised and honoured him that liveth for ever, whose dominion is an everlasting dominion, and his kingdom is from generation to generation:
35And all the inhabitants of the earth are reputed as nothing: and he doeth according to his will in the army of heaven, and among the inhabitants of the earth: and none can stay his hand, or say unto him, What doest thou?
36At the same time my reason returned unto me; and for the glory of my kingdom, mine honour and brightness returned unto me; and my counsellers and my lords sought unto me; and I was established in my kingdom, and excellent majesty was added unto me.
37Now I Nebuchadnezzar praise and extol and honour the King of heaven, all whose works are truth, and his ways judgment: and those that walk in pride he is able to abase.

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DMB | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Jul 13 2021 6:49 PM

Oh ... ok. You're not talking verses .. the extra text. I guess the next question would then be is the MT missing text, or does the LXX have expansions?

What have you found?

Posts 32
Meeshell Biblestudy | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Jul 14 2021 5:26 AM

DMB:

Oh ... ok. You're not talking verses .. the extra text. I guess the next question would then be is the MT missing text, or does the LXX have expansions?

What have you found?

To me, it looks like the MT is missing text.  The LXX flows better, and some of the verses from chpt. 4  are put in chp. 5 (Daniel 5:18-20) where they don't belong. compare with Daniel 4:34a.  The power to give life and take it is to the God of heaven, not Nebachudnezzar (as stated in the MT Daniel 5:19).  

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