Syntax Searching

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Pastor Michael Huffman | Forum Activity | Posted: Fri, Jul 23 2010 4:54 AM

Can someone show me how a syntax query should look when you are trying to find all the places where husband is the subject of the verb love? Thanks.

Pastor Michael Huffman, Th.A Th.B Th.M

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Ron Corbett | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Jul 23 2010 5:00 AM

Have you seen the 3 videos in the BLOG section of the Logos site? They are very helpful and should answer your question.

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Pastor Michael Huffman | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Jul 23 2010 5:40 AM

Yes I have and they were helpful in some areas. And I know that this is a simply construction but I cannot seem to get it to work. I just need to see what I am doing wrong. Thanks. I actually found the answer throught the Bible Word Study Report, but was wanting to see the query as well.

Pastor Michael Huffman, Th.A Th.B Th.M

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Robert Pavich | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Jul 23 2010 6:04 AM

Michael,

One thing to do is to go to a passage that has that contruction, in the OpenText or the Cascadia...and just duplicate it...

 

I'll see if I can....

 

Robert Pavich

For help go to the Wiki: http://wiki.logos.com/Table_of_Contents__

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Robert Pavich | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Jul 23 2010 6:16 AM

I just tried this...it seems that husband is never the subject of the verb love.

 

The two are used together in sentences, but not in that exact relationship...(someone can correct me)

Robert Pavich

For help go to the Wiki: http://wiki.logos.com/Table_of_Contents__

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Pastor Michael Huffman | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Jul 23 2010 6:24 AM

I am not in front of the computer with Logos on it.......so husband is not in the nominative case. What is its parts of speech?

Pastor Michael Huffman, Th.A Th.B Th.M

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Graham Criddle | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Jul 23 2010 7:02 AM

This is what I was noticing.

Husbands is used in the nominative case in Eph 5:25. I find this when doing the search below:

(I am using the lemma for the greek word, I get the same result if I use "husbands" in the gloss field)

However this does not find Eph 5:28 where husbands is also tagged as nominative.

Colossians 3:19 (again not returned) is tagged as both nominative and vocative, which I don't understand!

So, I'm a little confused here...

Graham

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Pastor Michael Huffman | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Jul 23 2010 8:10 AM

Thnks Graham---so if husband in Eph 5:25 is nominative then, if I remember mt Grammar from years ago, doesn't the nominative mark the Subject of the verb love? Which is why I was searching using husband as subject. Thanks.

Pastor Michael Huffman, Th.A Th.B Th.M

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Graham Criddle | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Jul 23 2010 8:31 AM

 

Michael Huffman:
Thnks Graham---so if husband in Eph 5:25 is nominative then, if I remember mt Grammar from years ago, doesn't the nominative mark the Subject of the verb love? Which is why I was searching using husband as subject. Thanks.

Hi Michael

Yes, nominative equates to subject so that explains why the hit for Eph 5:25 is valid.

I think the reason it doesn't find a hit for Eph 5:28 is that "husbands" and "love" is split across two "sub-clauses" as below:

If this is the cause for this not being found I haven't worked out how to include it as yet!

Graham

Posts 3163
Dominick Sela | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Jul 23 2010 8:54 AM

This is correct, Eph 5:28 goes across clauses. See pic for a search that finds it. I have not figured out why Col 3:19 does not work though, I can't get Husbands to work - tried with  and without article, etc.

 

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Dominick Sela | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Jul 23 2010 8:55 AM

Oops forgot the image

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Kevin Becker | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Jul 23 2010 8:56 AM

I used this search to find 3 hits

In Eph 5:25 and Col 3:19, Husband is technically not the subject of the verb. "love" in this case is in the second person. This is clear because these are commands instead of descriptions of husbands loving their wives. This is why I included the "Addressee" option in the clause component. I did matching skip levels to reach into Eph 5:28's embedded clause to find the infinitive "to love"

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Dominick Sela | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Jul 23 2010 9:21 AM

Nice job Kevin figuring that one out, thanks.

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Graham Criddle | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Jul 23 2010 10:33 AM

Hi Kevin

Good job, and thanks for pointing out that "love" is in the second person in those two cases.

Just one question:

  • Does specifying both "Addressee" and "Subject" in the clause category cause the search to match on either?

I assume this to be the case as the search works but I just wanted to check!

Many thanks

Graham

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Kevin Becker | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Jul 23 2010 1:02 PM

Graham Criddle:
Does specifying both "Addressee" and "Subject" in the clause category cause the search to match on either?

Yes, listing multiple items on a node is equivalent to and OR search.

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Graham Criddle | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Jul 23 2010 1:20 PM

Thanks Kevin

Very helpful

Graham

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Rick Brannan (Faithlife) | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Jul 23 2010 3:12 PM

Folks —

This thread excites me because so many people are so capable of asking and answering questions like this with the syntax databases available in Logos! I'm stoked.

I thought I'd give a few more observations on ways to go about doing this.

First, you could skip syntax altogether and just do a Bible search any English Bible for "husband love". The LEB returns 5 verses for this, including Eph 5.25, 28; and Col 3.19. Or you could get a little more fancy and do "husband BEFORE love" and get 4 verses returned, still including our three verses, Eph 5.25, 28; Col 3.19.

But that would be too easy :)  If you saw the Logos Blog today, you learned about "Query Forms". One strategy here is to realize that most words don't occur as subject that often; even less often with a particular verb. So you could open your search, select "Syntax", drop down the query, and look for the Subject form (note: OpenText.org templates list the 'English' templates second but their names don't specify "English" ... I've added that to my list to fix). Select the query, type "husband" and you'll see that in both Cascadia and in OpenText.org there are only 10 instances with "husband" as subject (and in both one instance with "husbands" as subject). You'll find Eph 5.28 in this list of eleven. You'd have to hit the OpenText.org query template for Addressee to find the other two instances.

Another strategy would be to do a Bible Word Study on "husband" to find the Greek words translated that way. From there, do a Bible Word Study on one of those Greek words (in this case, ANHR ανηρ) and check out the Grammatical Relationships, specifically the "Subject of ..." and "Addressee of ..." items. (note: You'll find both Eph 5.25 and Col 3.19 in the "Addressee of ..." list for αγαπαω). This still doesn't find Eph 5.28, though.

Another strategy would be to write a custom query. Below is a query I wrote for Cascadia that (with the benefit of y'all's discussion, thanks folks). Can you figure out what I'm doing? This query locates the mentioned hits (Eph 5.25, 28; Col 3.19) but in a manner a bit more concise than OpenText.org. Might help to check the instances in Cascadia and then review the query.

Conclusion: Many times, it's easy to fake a syntax query by searching for co-occurring words (e.g. "husband love" in this case). This will get you some test references to look at, so you can examine the syntactic annotations to better understand how they encode/annotate such things. From there, you can build some queries and look for other instances that may not easily translate into English. Sometimes, you'll find some hidden gems. Other times, it will help confirm that you've already found what you're looking for.

Even if you only end up finding references you already knew about, I'm guessing the work of understanding how a database annotates something will help you understand the syntax of your passage better, help you next time you see a similar pattern, and make it easier to write your next syntax query.

Rick Brannan
Data Wrangler, Faithlife
My books in print

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Graham Criddle | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Jul 24 2010 12:55 AM

 

Rick Brannan:
But that would be too easy :)  If you saw the Logos Blog today, you learned about "Query Forms". One strategy here is to realize that most words don't occur as subject that often; even less often with a particular verb. So you could open your search, select "Syntax", drop down the query, and look for the Subject form (note: OpenText.org templates list the 'English' templates second but their names don't specify "English" ... I've added that to my list to fix). Select the query, type "husband" and you'll see that in both Cascadia and in OpenText.org there are only 10 instances with "husband" as subject (and in both one instance with "husbands" as subject). You'll find Eph 5.28 in this list of eleven. You'd have to hit the OpenText.org query template for Addressee to find the other two instances.

Thanks Rick.

I was aware that I hadn't worked out what to do with the query forms - this is a great example.

Not having Cascadia,  I can't work out what you are doing with your search. Maybe a reason to upgrade!

Graham

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Robert Pavich | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Jul 24 2010 1:25 AM

Graham Criddle:
Not having Cascadia,  I can't work out what you are doing with your search. Maybe a reason to upgrade!

Graham,

for what it's worth...I think it's worth upgrading...even though you can get a lot of things through just BWS and grammatical relationships...it's really helpful all around to see how the text holds together in it's parts....it's valuable to me....

And if you have the "Learn Greek" videos....they reference the Syntactic databases frequently.

Robert Pavich

For help go to the Wiki: http://wiki.logos.com/Table_of_Contents__

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Graham Criddle | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Jul 24 2010 2:36 AM

Hi Robert

With OpenText one has the "OpenText.org Syntactically Analyzed Greek New Testament: Clause Analysis" which is very useful when constructing OpenText-based syntax searches.

Do you know if the Cascadia Syntax graphs provide this type of view or is this done elsewhere?

Graham

 

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