Why I keep pushing an awareness of the broader canon -

Page 1 of 1 (19 items)
This post has 18 Replies | 1 Follower

Posts 35808
Forum MVP
MJ. Smith | Forum Activity | Posted: Wed, Oct 27 2021 2:20 PM

Did you know that the deuterocanonical/apocryrphal books are used either as lessons or as prayers in:

  • Oriental Orthodox Church
  • Assyrian Church of the East
  • Eastern Orthodox Church
  • Catholic Church
  • Lutheran Church (somewhat dependent on country and pastor)
  • Anglican Church
  • Methodist Church (somewhat dependent on country and pastor)
  • Amish churches
  • and is optionally available in all churches using the Revised Common Lectionary?

Whether presented as lessons, options for lessons, prayers, or simple allusions to the texts it is clear that a large portion of the Christian market needs the tools of Logos to treat the deuterocanonical/apocryphal books as relevant. Considerable progress has been made, but trust me, I'll keep pushing.

Orthodox Bishop Hilarion Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."

Posts 135
HansK | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Oct 27 2021 2:25 PM

push :-)

Posts 724
Kathleen Marie | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Oct 27 2021 8:01 PM

MJ. Smith:

Whether presented as lessons, options for lessons, prayers, or simple allusions to the texts it is clear that a large portion of the Christian market needs the tools of Logos to treat the deuterocanonical/apocryphal books as relevant. Considerable progress has been made, but trust me, I'll keep pushing.

This is so controversial. I am saddened by so much that I am learning. Yes, I need access to all the books treated as relevant, but ... there are powerful people that have wanted everyone not to have access to these books for centuries. I am too little and too weak and too unschooled to think that what I need matters to the more powerful.

I am interested to watch what happens, but it will probably make me sad, whatever is decided.

Posts 1294
DMB | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Oct 27 2021 8:33 PM

I guess I'm more optimistic. The slow steady expansion of Orthodox, and MJ's not unpleasant badgering offers hope.

OL's pretty much done (prepubs stuck in Logosian limbo; english Strack). 2nd Temple is in overkill, and the jewish basics are available ... obviously nothing close to what's in Israel. And the Peshita/syriac is stuck (publisher).

So! The Eastern church and the deutero/apocrypha support offer new growth.  Right now the latter is pretty spotty (critical and intertext).

Posts 35808
Forum MVP
MJ. Smith | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Oct 27 2021 10:20 PM

Kathleen Marie:
This is so controversial.

It shouldn't/needn't be. For a millenium, the major branches of the church agreed on a canon, nevermind:

  • they agreed that the Old Testament was Septuagint based but avoided the question of what books were in the Septuagint -- there were several versions of the canon on this issue
  • they agreed on the 27 book New Testament canon ... but that didn't mean that you had to print or use all of them leaving the shorter canon still very much alive in practice
  • if a book(s) they traditional used didn't make the cut, they would give a nod to the statement "it's not canonical" and still include it in their Bible's as an "appendix so the text doesn't get lost" or more creatively divide the book to serve as an introduction/epilogue to Biblical books ... leaving us uncertain of the canonical status of books bound in the Bible.
  • it was only with the rise of the sola scriptura view that the definition of the actual canon became critical -- no longer "we agree even though our practice differs".

Kathleen Marie:
. there are powerful people that have wanted everyone not to have access to these books for centuries.

Generally, they have been accessible because of their use as the background for understanding scripture or because of their use in liturgy, hymns, art, and early church writings ... but people ceased to know what the "Biblical" source was. Note that lost texts and gnostic literature has a different history as do the Oriental Church canons which were ignored because the existence of the Oriental Church was ignored.

But mainline Protestant churches are begining to recover their heritage ... and some are expanding it to include Dead Sea Scroll and Gnostic sources (The New New Testament, and The Uncommon Lectionary (Butcher) are examples).

At the moment I'm concentrating on getting more of the deuterocanon pericopes into the Compare Pericopes tool and exploring getting them into the Biblical Events Navigator ....

Orthodox Bishop Hilarion Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."

Posts 224
1Cor10:31 | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Oct 28 2021 2:16 AM

Regardless of the truth, Faithlife, as a business, has the right to determine where they should invest their $. Thus, we can only infer that Faithlife has deemed including these resources is not profitable as of now. Otherwise, they would have done it. We cannot infer that Faithlife is not including these resources because they think they are not part of the cannon. 

Posts 597
Carmen Gauvin-O'Donnell | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Oct 28 2021 3:07 AM

May I commend (and re-commend!) Faithlife's course BI291 - The Apocrypha - Witness Between the Testaments, taught by Dr. David deSilva? It was EXCELLENT. Or you can read his book, Introducing the Apocrypha - Message, Context and Significance.

In fact, I fully plan to create a TEDD talk (Theology, Education, Doctrine and Discussion!) for my church, tentatively titled, "The Apocrypha - Evangelicals, Be Not Afraid!" Big Smile

Am I convinced that they are not Inspired Scripture? Without a doubt. But does that mean they are not useful? OF COURSE NOT. And now I understand WHY Paul, before his conversion, was such a fanatical ding-dong, among other things.

So, off you all go now... Cool

Posts 1294
DMB | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Oct 28 2021 5:58 AM

1Cor10:31:

Regardless of the truth, Faithlife, as a business, has the right to determine where they should invest their $. 

Oh so true. Remember the excruciating years before Korean and Chinese got support (major 'Global South Christian areas). And currently pulling teeth for East European mission fields translations, while yet another english translation is greeted with gusto.

Posts 627
Gregory Lawhorn | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Oct 28 2021 7:47 AM

MJ. Smith:

trust me, I'll keep pushing.

So you won't mind if someone else pushes back . . . 

Posts 724
Kathleen Marie | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Oct 28 2021 8:28 AM

MJ. Smith:

Kathleen Marie:
This is so controversial.

It shouldn't/needn't be. ...

But mainline Protestant churches are begining to recover their heritage ...

What should and needs to happen is not what happens in the church. There are some that don't want anyone to recover their heritage or reunite with those they have broken from.

Posts 122
Greg Dement | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Oct 28 2021 8:51 AM

I made note of Carmen’s recommendation. In a similar vein, I know very little to none about the Orthodox Church. I hear from some in the Orthodox Church not to try to understand by trying to read online and to be careful which resources to read. What resource would you recommend to a Protestant wanting to understand it better? (Concise As possible). If it is helpful I have at least Bronze in all denominations in Logos 7, 8 and 9, I see I even have Silver in Logos 8 Orthodox.

Posts 122
Greg Dement | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Oct 28 2021 8:55 AM

FYI: if it was offensive to create distinctiveness from Protestant (which in my limited understanding there is), it was out of ignorance not intent. 

Posts 35808
Forum MVP
MJ. Smith | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Oct 28 2021 2:49 PM

1Cor10:31:
. Thus, we can only infer that Faithlife has deemed including these resources is not profitable as of now. Otherwise, they would have done it.

If you were around when they first announced and postponed, and postponed, and postponed a Catholic Bible version, you would know that there are real complexities added by truly supporting the broader canon. But they kept at it and eventually added verse mapping (and less obviously book name/division mapping) so they had the infrastructure to support alternative canons. Unfortunately, resolving resources that appear as pseudepigrapha and as canon has been a slow process as well. Once they had the infrastructure, they have been gradually expanding their bases - deliberately targeting Eastern Orthodox, Catholic, and Lutheran larger canons. Anglican is probably also included but I can't think of a specific resource or feature off the top of my head. My concern is more with how Faithlife can serve us better and expand the "us" which the product fully supports.

1Cor10:31:
We cannot infer that Faithlife is not including these resources because they think they are not part of the cannon. 

No, I would not. But I would state that Faithlife has few employees truly familiar with the additional material so it has, in the past, been forgotten, given cursory treatment, or handled well with a bit of a reminder.

Orthodox Bishop Hilarion Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."

Posts 35808
Forum MVP
MJ. Smith | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Oct 28 2021 2:55 PM

Gregory Lawhorn:

MJ. Smith:

trust me, I'll keep pushing.

So you won't mind if someone else pushes back . . . 

Not at all. If you want FL to be a niche company of limited value to academics, that is certainly your right. More likely, if you want FL to spend their resources implementing your personal priorities -- welcome aboard, you're part of the human race.

I would like a universal user option that allows the user to control what appears as canonical, deuterocanonical, and noncanonical. Quick. Can you tell me the difference between Anglican apocrypha and Lutheran apocrypha?

Orthodox Bishop Hilarion Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."

Posts 35808
Forum MVP
MJ. Smith | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Oct 28 2021 2:57 PM

Carmen, you may also benefit from The First Bible of the Church: A Plea for the Septuagint by Mogens Müller

Orthodox Bishop Hilarion Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."

Posts 35808
Forum MVP
MJ. Smith | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Oct 28 2021 3:05 PM

Orthodox Bishop Hilarion Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."

Posts 35808
Forum MVP
MJ. Smith | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Oct 28 2021 3:11 PM

Greg Dement:

FYI: if it was offensive to create distinctiveness from Protestant (which in my limited understanding there is), it was out of ignorance not intent. 

The Eastern Orthodox are distinctive culturally from the Oriental Orthodox and the Catholic Churches because their history has never taken them far from the early church fathers (primarily the Greek fathers) in their expression of their faith and because they are holistic (rather than the Catholic dissection) in their approach. The result is that it sometimes takes some serious digging to understand what they are saying because they frame it differently.

Orthodox Bishop Hilarion Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."

Posts 122
Greg Dement | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Oct 28 2021 3:22 PM

Today I was learning a little about phronema and nous which I think are related to your saying ”framing it differently”.

Posts 122
Greg Dement | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Oct 28 2021 3:28 PM

Thank you for referring the resources I already own! Big Smile

Page 1 of 1 (19 items) | RSS