A Much Missed Feature of the Sermon Editor

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Posts 369
Pastor Michael Huffman | Forum Activity | Posted: Thu, Nov 11 2021 11:06 AM
    • It seems to me that a very useful feature of the sermon editor is now missing. Like all expository preachers, I use a ton of cross references in my sermons but I also use the "bullet points" in my manuscript, such as appears to the left of the words that I am typing. And one of the useful features that I enjoyed was not having to turn the bullet point off in order to bring in a cross reference into the sermon manuscript. All I did was type the verse reference and Logos formatted it the correct way. After "upgrading" to 9.9, that feature seems to be missing. Once again, I am having to turn the bullet point off in order for Logos to bring the verse into the manuscript, and then have to turn it back on.  May seem like a small thing, but I loved the time saving feature of not having to turn that bullet off/on in order to bring in a verse and then have the bullet automatically be below the verse and just keep on typing. Was a time saving feature that I loved and used and am greatly disappointed that it is missing...would like to see it return. Now, if I am missing something, please let me know. Thanks, folks!
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Austin Bush | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Nov 11 2021 2:31 PM

Pastor Michael,

I hear what you are saying in the problem you are describing.  What's happening is a direct reflection of the 9.9 release.  From the release notes, notice the one I've put in bold...

  • Sermon Builder
    • Fixed a bug that caused slides not to be generated when the content was created while offline.
    • Fixed a bug that caused “Hide Answers” to not work in the Handout tab.
    • Disabled Scripture helpers when Bible verses are used in a list.
    • Fixed a bug that caused some Bible verses to not be hyperlinked when pasted in a list.
    • Fixed a bug that caused the offline status to not be handled correctly.

What we were finding is that many of our users were frustrated with the experience of being in a bulleted list and then not wanting to have to insert a scripture.  Before we even implemented the scripture insertion reminders, bulleted lists would allow a user to click Enter and it wouldn't insert the scripture block.  Therefore, we were working towards getting it back towards that same experience.  

What you're describing though is wanting that feature to be able to be within a bulleted list though it sounds like.  While I don't have an immediate solution for you to try to accomplish exactly what you're wanting to do, I would recommend the keyboard shortcut for the bulleted list.  Perhaps that might make things a little bit quicker for you to accomplish the turning on/turning off function.  

Thanks for pointing this out though.  It's possible in the future we can find a "happy medium" to this so that the users have more options when it comes to bulleted lists.

Posts 369
Pastor Michael Huffman | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Nov 11 2021 2:47 PM

Austin Bush:
What we were finding is that many of our users were frustrated with the experience of being in a bulleted list and then not wanting to have to insert a scripture.

If I am understanding you, users were frustrated when they were in a bullet list and then they did not want to insert a scripture passage? If I am understanding you correctly, that makes no sense to me. It you do not want a Scripture verse to appear when you are in a bullet list, then just don't type a Scripture passage. What I am frustrated at is when I am in a bullet list and I type a Scripture reference, it is because I want a Scripture reference there. I do not understand why users would get frustrated at this; why would someone type a Scripture reference if they did not want a scripture reference? I guess I am not understanding you. And the keyboard shortcut for MAC that the sermon Editor gives is incorrect. If you hover over the bullet the pop up box says that the command is: Up arrow/command/8, but it is command/shift/8. And it does not work, on either MAC or windows, on the 8 on the number pad, you have to user the one below the function keys. 

Posts 57
Pastor Luke | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Nov 11 2021 3:14 PM

I 100% agree with Pastor Huffman. I loved the automatic ability to insert scripture by either tab or CR. If I didn't want the reference to expand then I just put a "." after the reference and the feature didn't fill in the text. Can we have the feature as a setting? I would love to have it in notes too for that matter. Losing this is a big dissatisfier. Please. Pretty please.

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Mike Binks | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Nov 12 2021 2:05 AM

Might I suggest that what has happened it that some folk are using the Sermon Editor for other purposes than preaching a sermon.

Those complaining about the missing feature are correct in that, if one is actually preaching, then access to the actual text is important; and a list of bible references pretty useless.

The developers need to focus on making the Sermon Editor the best Sermon facility it can be.

If handouts, lesson plans, bulletins etc need their own Editors then that is a different matter.

tootle pip

Mike

How to get logs and post them. (now tagging post-apocalyptic fiction as current affairs)

Posts 369
Pastor Michael Huffman | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Nov 12 2021 7:51 AM

Pastor Luke:

I 100% agree with Pastor Huffman. I loved the automatic ability to insert scripture by either tab or CR. If I didn't want the reference to expand then I just put a "." after the reference and the feature didn't fill in the text. Can we have the feature as a setting? I would love to have it in notes too for that matter. Losing this is a big dissatisfier. Please. Pretty please.

I agree Pastor Luke, Logos could and probably SHOULD HAVE NOT taken it away, but made it as an option that can be turned off/on. Thanks for that feedback. Brother. 

Posts 369
Pastor Michael Huffman | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Nov 12 2021 7:55 AM

Mike Binks:

Might I suggest that what has happened it that some folk are using the Sermon Editor for other purposes than preaching a sermon.

Those complaining about the missing feature are correct in that, if one is actually preaching, then access to the actual text is important; and a list of bible references pretty useless.

The developers need to focus on making the Sermon Editor the best Sermon facility it can be.

If handouts, lesson plans, bulletins etc need their own Editors then that is a different matter.

Well put Mike. Logos needs to focus on the making the feature optimal for the ones that are using it for the purposes it which it was created. Not to cater to a, perhaps, large group of people, but people that are complaining about a feature that is perhaps being used for incorrect purposes...Logos does not need to cater to that voice. As Mike said, they needs to  optimize the feature for those that are using it for the intended purposes. I cannot imagine a preacher that is using the Sermon Editor for its intended purpose that would have an issue with the automatic formatting of the verses by just typing the reference without having to exit of out the bullet point feature. Bad move Logos. 

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Austin Bush | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Nov 12 2021 9:02 AM

With true sincerity, I really appreciate you all chiming in with your thoughts on this.  Discussions are already taking place this morning on the best way to go about providing users the option of how they want to handle these type situations when in a list.  

As a bit of a background, when deciding to implement that behavior in lists for 9.9, we did so because that is how it acted in versions prior to 9.7.  Then, upon releasing 9.7, that behavior changed and it did not sit well with many of our users.  With the inclusion of the scripture reminders, some of the behavior changed with how lists were handled so we went in and fixed it to match the behavior of the pre-9.7 versions.  

However, I just want you all to know that your voice has been heard and this will be something our team prioritizes to be resolved.  

Just as a sneak preview into one of our initial thoughts, we're looking at the possibility of adding an arrow icon as seen below in the screenshot.

This view of showing three options would appear when within normal parts of building a sermon so that a user could move to the next line without having to insert any additional characters or to choose from the tab/enter options. 

But, when a user is in a "Bulleted List Item" or "Numbered List Item" state, the only options that would appear would be the "Insert inline" and arrow icon.  In this state while in a list, clicking "Enter" wouldn't insert a block below but would move to the next bullet or number.

Since you all specifically aren't currently pleased with how 9.9 handles this situation, I'd be curious on your thoughts about that potential fix.  Would that resolve the current problem you face?

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Austin Bush | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Nov 12 2021 9:24 AM

Another thought...

For those of you using bulleted lists quite frequently when writing your sermon, before Logos 9.9, when you typed in a scripture reference while in a list, were you implementing the "Insert Inline" option or the "Insert Block" option? 

I'd just be interested to hear more about your exact steps/process you took while building your sermon and inserting scriptures while in lists.  Knowing this will help provide us some data to make sure we build out an appropriate solution.

Thanks for your help.

Posts 369
Pastor Michael Huffman | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Nov 12 2021 9:40 AM

Austin Bush:

With true sincerity, I really appreciate you all chiming in with your thoughts on this.  Discussions are already taking place this morning on the best way to go about providing users the option of how they want to handle these type situations when in a list.  

As a bit of a background, when deciding to implement that behavior in lists for 9.9, we did so because that is how it acted in versions prior to 9.7.  Then, upon releasing 9.7, that behavior changed and it did not sit well with many of our users.  With the inclusion of the scripture reminders, some of the behavior changed with how lists were handled so we went in and fixed it to match the behavior of the pre-9.7 versions.  

However, I just want you all to know that your voice has been heard and this will be something our team prioritizes to be resolved.  

Just as a sneak preview into one of our initial thoughts, we're looking at the possibility of adding the arrow icon as seen below in the screenshot.

When in a regular part of the sermon and not in a list, this arrow would allow a user to move to the next line without having to insert any additional characters or to choose from the tab/enter options.  In a "Bulleted List Item" or "Numbered List Item" state, clicking that arrow would move the user into either the next bullet or the next sequential number.  

Since you all specifically aren't currently pleased with how 9.9 handles this situation, I'd be curious on your thoughts about that potential fix.  Would that resolve the current problem you face?

Thank you, Austin, for listening. I see what you guys are trying to do. You are trying to come up with a solution that will solve the problems of all your users, and I appreciate that. However, it does not need to be complicated. My suggestion is similar to our brother above; in the Sermon Editor, where you have the three vertical dots and in the same place where you can chose to "show the slide" by just checking beside it, add an option to allow for that verse formatting that we are asking to come back. It would take additional time to click the down arrow button, when you can just add that option to the sermon editor preference with the three vertical dots. Thanks for the consideration. 

Posts 369
Pastor Michael Huffman | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Nov 12 2021 9:44 AM

Austin Bush:

Another thought...

For those of you using bulleted lists quite frequently when writing your sermon, before Logos 9.9, when you typed in a scripture reference while in a list, were you implementing the "Insert Inline" option or the "Insert Block" option? 

I'd just be interested to hear more about your exact steps/process you took while building your sermon and inserting scriptures while in lists.  Knowing this will help provide us some data to make sure we build out an appropriate solution.

Thanks for your help.

All I was doing, beside the bullet dot, was typing in the reference and hitting enter and it put the verse into the document and then moved the dot below the verse. It was beautiful and I loved that feature. And still cannot fathom anyone using the sermon editor for writing sermons not liking that feature. I remember the menu that you showed in your last post popping up when I typed the verse, but I just hit enter and Logos did the rest. 

Posts 57
Pastor Luke | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Nov 12 2021 11:33 AM

Austin Bush:
I'd just be interested to hear more about your exact steps/process you took while building your sermon and inserting scriptures while in lists. 

Austin. I mostly use the block quote. usually I'll make an point in the outline and then make the block quote under that point. Sometimes I will use the Inline feature, especially if I'm only using a portion of the verse. As I said earlier If I didn't want the reference expanded I would put a period after the reference. The previous operability saved me so much time, you cant imagine. I prefer the previous operability as I don't need to use the mouse to select anything, there is nothing easier than CR, and Tab. 

Under the 9.9 operability I have to type the reference into the sermon editor, use the mouse to click on it so that it is selected in the Copy Bible Verses Window, use the mouse again to select Copy in the Copy Bible Verses window, Move focus back to the Sermon Editor and Create a new line for the quote, paste the copied verse, use the mouse to select "Block Quote" from the drop down. That is four mouse movements, where there were none before.

Posts 1027
xnman | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Nov 12 2021 3:02 PM

As one that doesn't have senority on the forum....   I would hope that there are options to "turn off" or "turn on" the options you guys are discussing.

I would turn it off as I use ZipScript to insert verses if I should want them. Love ZipScript!!!!

xn = Christan  man=man -- Acts 11:26 "....and the disciples were first called Christians in Antioch".

Posts 427
danwdoo | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Nov 12 2021 10:08 PM

Whatever the solution, it needs to be capable of being handled entirely with the keyboard. Please don't force a mouse action (optional is fine) to accomplish the task as that can disrupt flow.

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Phil Gons (Faithlife) | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Nov 12 2021 10:51 PM

There are two questions to answer:

  1. What should happen when you press Enter when (a) you're in a list and (b) have a Bible reference at the end of your list item (c) with no terminal punctuation?
  2. What should happen when you press Tab when (a) you're in a list and (b) have a Bible reference at the end of your list item (c) with no terminal punctuation?

For Enter there are two options:

  1. Insert another list item (current behavior).
  2. Insert a Scripture block between list items.

The key question is: which one is most common? That one should be the easiest, which means that one should work with Enter. The less common should also be supported via a modifier key (e.g., Shift + Enter) and perhaps also through a mouse interaction (i.e., clicking on the insertion button).

My instinct is to support #1 with Enter and #2 with Shift + Enter and the button, but we should get some data and let that decide. We could also introduce a setting, but that adds complexity and should be a last resort if we're looking at a 50/50 split.

Alternatively, we could give priority to Scripture insertion and allow Esc to dismiss the insertion helpers for the times you want to insert another list item below.

For Tab there are three options:

  1. Increase the indentation (current behavior).
  2. Insert a tab (standard behavior).
  3. Insert the Bible text inline.

The same key question applies here, too: which one is most common? That one should be the easiest and should work with Tab. The other ones could get a modifier key and/or a button to click.

My instinct in this case is that #3 should get Tab. #1 already has a button on the toolbar and a keyboard shortcut (i.e., Ctrl + M), and in most editors increasing indentation requires the cursor to be at the beginning of the list item. So our current behavior is nonstandard. #2 is likely uncommon enough in this particular scenario. Perhaps we could use Esc to dismiss the insertion helpers and let you do a normal tab insertion. Here, too, we could create a setting, but it would be great to avoid that if we can.

Take the survey to help us decide.

Posts 57
Pastor Luke | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Nov 13 2021 6:33 AM

Phil Gons (Faithlife):
The key question is: which one is most common?

I agree that the most common activity for a return would be to add a new list item. However, I don't think the answer is that simple. We aren't asking "what is most common", but "what is most common when the list item ends with a scripture reference". I think that in fact it is more common when a list item ends with a scripture reference that you would want it expanded. That is certainly the case for me. 

The operability for Tab is another consideration. In most word processors, and even in Logos Notes, tab inserts a tab when not at the begging of a new item. Obviously, at the beginning of a new list item selecting tab indents the item. In Sermon builder, selecting tab anywhere in the line (not just the beginning), indents the list item, which seems inconsistent. While I like tab expanding the reference inline I also think that would be inconsistent. Therefore, It would seem best to put both inline and block expansion on a special key. This would make them consistent with standard editor behavior, and with each other.

Personally, I wouldn't quibble over any single key sequence that would expand/inline the text. I would hope that there wouldn't be a need for a mouse action, though anything is better than what we are left with now.

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Mike Binks | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Nov 13 2021 6:47 AM

Phil Gons (Faithlife):
What should happen when you press Enter

A notice should pop up that reads 'That was the enter key you just pushed - write 'Enter' on it with a Sharpie so that you remember where it is'.

Phil Gons (Faithlife):
What should happen when you press Shift when...

Nothing - if pressing Shift on its own started doing things then we would all get terribly confused.

Phil Gons (Faithlife):

For Enter there are two options:

  1. Insert another list item.
  2. Insert a Scripture block between list items.

For 1 I expect this to happen when I press 'Return'

For 2 I expect this to work exactly like a text expansion abbreviation. ie Follow a scripture reference with a space and it expands.

Follow a scripture reference with any other character eg '.' Hekiziah 16:6. and it remains unexpanded. Actually this reference behaves this way now.

Tabs should remain Tabs and behave just like they do in Pages.

tootle pip

Mike

How to get logs and post them. (now tagging post-apocalyptic fiction as current affairs)

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Phil Gons (Faithlife) | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Nov 13 2021 8:51 AM

Pastor Luke:
We aren't asking "what is most common", but "what is most common when the list item ends with a scripture reference".

I agree that's the right question to answer, which is why I said, "What should happen when you press Enter when (a) you're in a list and (b) have a Bible reference at the end of your list item (c) with no terminal punctuation?"

Pastor Luke:
In most word processors, and even in Logos Notes, tab inserts a tab when not at the begging of a new item. Obviously, at the beginning of a new list item selecting tab indents the item. In Sermon builder, selecting tab anywhere in the line (not just the beginning), indents the list item, which seems inconsistent.

That's a good point. I agree we should follow standard conventions.

Pastor Luke:
I would hope that there wouldn't be a need for a mouse action, though anything is better than what we are left with now.

I definitely agree that keyboard control is critical.

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Phil Gons (Faithlife) | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Nov 13 2021 9:06 AM

Mike Binks:

Phil Gons (Faithlife):
What should happen when you press Shift when...

Nothing - if pressing Shift on its own started doing things then we would all get terribly confused.

Oops. Typo. That should have read Tab. Fixed.

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Phil Gons (Faithlife) | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Nov 13 2021 9:56 AM

Phil Gons (Faithlife):
We could also introduce a setting, but that adds complexity and should be a last resort if we're looking at a 50/50 split.

Well, there's currently a 50/50 split in the survey. Anyone one to break the tie? :)

I suppose we could have a setting "Prefer Scripture insertion helpers in lists."

When set to Yes (the default?), Enter and Tab would work as they do outside of lists (i.e., they'd insert Scripture below or inline). Esc could be an override key to temporarily dismiss the helpers (and the functionality) and allow you to use Enter and Tab for their more typical uses on occasion.

When set to No, Enter and Tab would work as they normally do in lists, and perhaps Shift + Enter and Shift (?) + Tab could still insert Scripture below and inline.

How would that suit you?

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