Custom Bundles?

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MJ. Smith | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Nov 16 2021 1:39 PM

Steven Veach:
I can't imagine a publishing company demanding their product be sold only in an expensive package rather than as an individual item or as an addition to a customized bundle

There are/have been publishers in Logos that insisted on bundling with no discount for resources already owned; there are also those who don't allow their resources to be bundled as they don't what to be mixed with other publishers; there are those that do not allow Logos to discount their products except as a publisher-initated sale. I have not named names and will not do so but I have specific publishers in mind in each category.

Orthodox Bishop Hilarion Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."

Posts 236
Steven Veach | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Nov 16 2021 1:53 PM

MJ. Smith:

Allow me to be inappropriately obnoxious.

I like that. Big Smile

MJ. Smith:

a user who is unwilling to make suggestions gives up their right to criticize.

Disagree, and when I wrote that I knew someone would come back with this response. It is the same as stating someone who refuses to participate in the voting process has not right to complain about who is elected. If there are two bad candidates it means there is actually no one to vote for. Not voting is participating. 

By not participating in the system Logos has set up where I see people on the forums complaining for years because suggesting go to a black box to die does not mean I lose the right to complain, it means there is nothing else to do. There is a perceived system in place but that system does not actually function. 

In the end, Logos has it set up so that they are in control of what they will work on at any given moment. They take advice from the end user, they scoop the end user's data, but in the end they do what they want with their product. My time is limited to 24 hours a day and 8 of that is spent unconscious. I'm not going to waste my limited time on a process I know will not result in a solution (maybe it will years from now but not in a time frame that will be at all useful). 

Likewise, I find it really hard to believe that all the suggestions haven't been made already. Logos is an advanced program, but there still are only so many things that can be done with it and there are realistically only so many improvements added. With the user base they already have, I'm sure the clipboard monitoring has already been presented. When I asked about it on the forum I was told it wasn't wanted (that could have been on the Accordance forum) which I found odd because I use it all the time.  

I found a workaround that works. It's not perfect but it does work. This is a much better solution that making a suggestion in a process that won't produce a result.  

Many of these issues can be solved with alternate approaches. That's why I've said it is a choice that Logos/Faithlife is making. But, if it is true that Faithlife is not a ministry and is actually a for-profit company, then they are not held to any greater standard than any other for-profit company. And that standard is WAY low these days. So Faithlife can do pretty much whatever it wants with its products and I choose to participate or not.  

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DIsciple II | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Nov 16 2021 2:20 PM

Steven there is so many individual comments you have made I could comment on in this and subsequent posts in this thread. But I won't as others have commented so Ill leave things there.

All I will say is FL is not a ministry, they are a business. They do not say they are a not-for-profit ministry. Check out their about page.  They identify themselves as a Tech Company committed to the Church.  

And on are FL prices inflated ?

I have worked in  both B2C (Business to Consumer) and B2B (Business to Business) companies for many years in different departments as a business analysts using my tech skills and my business acumen I have learned, developed and grown over that time period.  For my current organisation I am a pricing analysts and set the pricing for B2B products and work with those setting B2C pricing. Pricing is decisions can be made using a lot of different strategies, somethings are in your control, others are not. So while I am not familiar with FL's financial details I can say pricing of a public domain title they put into their proprietary format that entails taking into consideration a lot of value adding for it to work within and alongside other resources and take advantage of functionality available in the software and the online services which we don't pay for directly but indirectly through resource purchases) they offer. And then their workforce is highly skilled and knowledgeable and so deserves to take home to their families and adequate pay packet each week. Getting publishers to sign up to licensing agreements is not as simple as they want to sell and F FL offers a platform to sell to consumes so great everybody lets getting selling . With all that I would be very reluctant to suggest FL is inflating their pricing , that inflated prices is their strategy.

You say you moved from TW5 to Logos that in itself says TW5 is great for what it is, but you wanted more than they could offer based on thier business / ministry model. So their model wasn't working for your needs, so why would you want FL to switch to that model. FL has the resources and reach they have today because of the busines model they choose to adopt.

Posts 236
Steven Veach | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Nov 16 2021 2:43 PM

DIsciple II:

All I will say is FL is not a ministry, they are a business. They do not say they are a not-for-profit ministry. Check out their about page.  They identify themselves as a Tech Company committed to the Church.  

Yes, I discovered this along the way as I responded to this thread. I posted this in one reply above. They are clearly a for-profit organization and in no way any kind of Christian ministry, though I think their marketing is a little suspect as they seem to present themselves vaguely as a ministry or an organization in service to the church. The reality is they are not these, they are in business just as other businesses are in business for the expressed purpose of making money. 

DIsciple II:

I have worked in  both B2C (Business to Consumer) and B2B (Business to Business) companies for many years. Getting publishers to sign up to licensing agreements is not as simple as they want to sell and F FL offers a platform to sell to consumes so great everybody lets getting selling . With all that I would be very reluctant to suggest FL is inflating their pricing , that inflated prices is their strategy.

I would not be reluctant. If prices are more expensive in platform A than platform B it is either because 1. platform A could not get as good a licensing deal as platform B or 2. there are greater markups for profit in platform A than B or 3. it costs more to release on platform A than B due to various limitations (ie. resource won't run in a particular format and needs to be converted). 

I'm sorry but it is my opinion based on both the overall market that Logos is maximizing their price points to focus on affluent customers because they know that is where the money is at. It's easy to get to these people because they have the disposable money available and want to spend it.  

But, with that all said, now that I know that Faithlife is not a Christian organization, not a non-profit organization, and not affiliated with the Church in service to the body of Christ, then this is how modern, secular organizations operate. It is up to the end user to determine if they want to purchase Faithlife products.  I did not really have a choice. I was starting grad school at the time and needed a more robust program to finish my doctorate. "Need" is of course relative as people have been doing dissertations on typewriters long before Logos was released. 

DIsciple II:

You say you moved from TW5 to Logos that in itself says TW5 is great for what it is, but you wanted more than they could offer based on thier business / ministry model. So their model wasn't working for your needs, so why would you want FL to switch to that model. FL has the resources and reach they have today because of the busines model they choose to adopt.

This was predicated on the assumption (my fault) that Faithlife was operating under the concept of a ministry for Christ or the Church. Such a ministry would be held to a higher standard than a typical, secular, for-profit company. The sole purpose of any for-profit business is to make a profit. To maximize that profit. This is not the purpose of a Christian ministry. Even when a Christian ministry is categorized as for-profit, that profit is second to the purposes and call of Christ.  

In a perfect world I would to have Logos become TW5 but would have TW5 expand and broaden its platform and functionality so there would be no need for Logos (for me). I loved TW5 but I hit its limits and the author said he would not be adding more features in the future.  

In the end, I do not want FL to become TW5. But there are some practices that FL does that are frustrating because they could help many more people if they changes those practices. But, they are not in business to help people as a ministry would. They are in the business of providing a product to their target market. I don't have a problem with that. In fact, I know from my own experience, working with more affluent customers is MUCH easier than working with people who are cash strapped. But I don't define business and ministry the same. In fact I think they are polar opposites.  

I think we agree that FL is a business not a ministry. In light of that there is nothing to be changed. They can do what they want with their product and it's up to the end user if they want to buy that product. 

Posts 25
Crboone | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Nov 16 2021 4:59 PM

MJ. Smith:

Steven Veach:
I can't imagine a publishing company demanding their product be sold only in an expensive package rather than as an individual item or as an addition to a customized bundle

There are/have been publishers in Logos that insisted on bundling with no discount for resources already owned; there are also those who don't allow their resources to be bundled as they don't what to be mixed with other publishers; there are those that do not allow Logos to discount their products except as a publisher-initated sale. I have not named names and will not do so but I have specific publishers in mind in each category.

Logos seems to offer more of a digital library/bookseller/publishing service integrated into their Bible research/documentation application. Thus, it primarily appeals to those who want to make use of such an extensive library and have it integrated into the Logos system.

Logos also has a very broad target market, comparatively. Another Bible application or bookseller might be more ministry-focused, but it might also have a narrower user-base as a result. The trade-off is the risk of having less support. For some, that's preferable. Logos' wide-market approach gives it a larger possible support/user base and certainly informs their package bundles and the costs associated for them.

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DAL | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Nov 16 2021 5:16 PM

FL is a for profit business or else there would be no Logos Bible Software and they’d be out of business. I think some people miss this very important point.  If you want the best you have to invest or go to the other guys that sell real cheap (notice “Sell” that means profit too).

Anyway, don’t miss the “under the radar” Zondervan sale going on.  Some great stuff at a good discount: https://www.logos.com/search?sortBy=Savings&limit=60&page=1&ownership=all&geographicAvailability=availableToMe&filters=publisher-5004_Publisher 

DAL

Posts 236
Steven Veach | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Nov 16 2021 5:40 PM

Crboone:

Logos seems to offer more of a digital library/bookseller/publishing service integrated into their Bible research/documentation application. Thus, it primarily appeals to those who want to make use of such an extensive library and have it integrated into the Logos system.

Logos also has a very broad target market, comparatively.

The point I've been trying to make in this threat is these are intentional choices made by Logos management. It is not by accident. Plus, I don't personally see their market being large unless you are comparing it to other programs like TW5 or  E-Sword which have rather narrow markets. From their pricing strategy it appears (at least to me) that their target market is focused on affluent Christians from many denominations. It is out of reach for many who have less disposable income. I think this is intentional because there is no money in customers who, well, have no money. But, as has been clearly established, Faithlife is a for-profit business and not a ministry, even though their marketing seems to indirectly indicate they are at least ministry associated. But they are not. They are like any other company and I would imagine all the decisions they make are profit driven. I'm not knocking this since all business make the same calculations. The fault here in this thread was mine in assuming they were a ministry when they are not. 

Crboone:

Another Bible application or bookseller might be more ministry-focused, but it might also have a narrower user-base as a result. The trade-off is the risk of having less support. For some, that's preferable. Logos' wide-market approach gives it a larger possible support/user base and certainly informs their package bundles and the costs associated for them.

Actually, I think Faithlife is positioned to have more user-base if they adopted more of a ministry focus. They are clearly in a position where they can provide a more advanced and more useful product to a greater section of the church than they currently do or that others can provide. Unfortunately, they choose not to do this, which is not something they have to do since they are not a ministry but a for-profit company. Their responsibility stops as a company at maximizing profits for shareholders. 

Posts 236
Steven Veach | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Nov 16 2021 5:58 PM

DAL:

FL is a for profit business or else there would be no Logos Bible Software and they’d be out of business. I think some people miss this very important point.  If you want the best you have to invest or go to the other guys that sell real cheap (notice “Sell” that means profit too).

Anyway, don’t miss the “under the radar” Zondervan sale going on.  Some great stuff at a good discount: https://www.logos.com/search?sortBy=Savings&limit=60&page=1&ownership=all&geographicAvailability=availableToMe&filters=publisher-5004_Publisher 

DAL

I don't know if it is has to be one or the other. Either they have to be a for-profit business and operate like any other for-profit or they have to be exclusively a ministry and not focus on profits at all. There is a lot of gray area where they could operate especially since they are positioned in the technology space where they could do a lot of good if they chose to. They don't. If they chose to make their products more accessible to the non-affluent it would not automatically destroy their business.  

From a purely secular, for-profit standpoint, your statement about having to pay for the beset is correct in most instances. Then again I've seen some very, very expensive products that were total junk. So quality is not always equated to price.

As far as your selling comment, I actually think too many ministries (so called) in the christian sub-culture are really just for-profit business in disguise. I get an email every week from one particular ministry that is constantly trying to sell me their products and ranks and raves about how difficult their lives are currently and how they need donations. It's not really doing anything of substance, they're just trying to gin up financial support to pay their own wages.  

 Concerning the Zondervan sale. I look at all of these, both what comes into my email inbox, then checking the website regularly and also checking my wishlist. Much of what is on my wishlist never gets put on sale, and even with the academic discount they are still quite expensive. So much so that I have talked myself out of the NICOT/NT and WBC entirely. They just cost too much. It's not the end of the world. Pricing is often limiting. I just have to put much of Logos' resource list in the same category as luxury yachts. They are products not meant for me. It's a different world. 

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MJ. Smith | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Nov 16 2021 6:19 PM

Two questions because I disagree with you on some basic facrs but am willing to be persuaded:

  1. What is your evidence that the Faithlife feedback site does not work? On the issues that I have cared about, it seems to have worked as intended.
  2. What is you estimate of the number of people in the Logos market? I haven't seen a number in years, but years ago the number was impressive.

Orthodox Bishop Hilarion Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."

Posts 1157
DMB | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Nov 16 2021 6:33 PM

Adding to MJ a little:

- Per Bob, the predominant purchasing customer-group is the pastors, primarily reformed

- There has been a large customer base, but a histrogram with a very long tail (entry purchaser and no further)

- The book inventory, at least Biblical-studies, similarly has a long stat-tail ...  l.imited purchasing

- The distinction profit vs ministry is a false trade; FL is trying to expand its 3 major lines for long-term service

- As MJ indicated earlier, those big packages are small with year-over-year dynamic purchasing (for me, 16 years, a little at a time)

Separately:

FL might be trying to more aggressively price the bread and butter. I needed a BHW in Accordance (I already have 2!). The Accordance price seemed high, so I checked Logos ... much lower. But I still shelled out the bucks.

Posts 236
Steven Veach | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Nov 16 2021 6:34 PM

MJ. Smith:

Two questions because I disagree with you on some basic facrs but am willing to be persuaded:

  1. What is your evidence that the Faithlife feedback site does not work? On the issues that I have cared about, it seems to have worked as intended.
  2. What is you estimate of the number of people in the Logos market? I haven't seen a number in years, but years ago the number was impressive.

1. It is anecdotal, of course, but many of the issues/challenges I've had with Logos since switching I've found others on the forum having the same trouble, yet they get nowhere with Logos. Some have commented that they've been waiting years for progress to be made but nothing happens. I think if there were more transparency in how the process was undertaken it would go a long way in boosting trust in the feedback system (and in development in general). But to have requests go unanswered for years, this is not a functional system. I certainly could be wrong on this issue. A crowdfunding system based on specific feature sets would resolve this issue. One look on a crowdfunding platform would tell the end user where each feature stands in its development. i.e does it need more funding and how much (which could easily trigger an ETA). Is it fully funded and in progress? What are the progress notes provided by the team working on a given feature. The way it is now, feedback goes into a black box and it is anyone's guess when or if it will ever be worked on. Crowdfunding would remove the need to take money away from other areas since it would be users paying the way for features they actually want. 

2. I would imagine, given that Logos is a program marketed globally and is marketed not only to Pastors and Churches but to individual Christians both in the US and in other countries, the numbers would be staggering. Per their about page statistics they have 6+ million Faithlife accounts in over 170 countries. https://faithlife.com/about. Of course this is just their user-base. It does not include the market they operate in or "market" to. That would be substantially higher. I was in that pool for over a year before I finally took the plunge and became one of their users.   

Posts 236
Steven Veach | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Nov 16 2021 6:37 PM

DMB:

Adding to MJ a little:

- Per Bob, the predominant purchasing customer-group is the pastors, primarily reformed

I have noticed many of the instructional videos and webinars seem to be geared toward pastors, preaching, etc. Very little is provided as how-to for academics. Basic material is provided for general use, bible study, etc. 

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Mike Binks | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Nov 17 2021 1:56 AM

Just taking your first example... 

Steven Veach:
Cambridge Greek Testament 100.00

TheWord supplies this with the following indices and search fields

for free?

If not at 21 volumes the cost of the upgrade and convenience is less than five of your dollars per volume.

tootle pip

Mike

How to get logs and post them. (now tagging post-apocalyptic fiction as current affairs)

Posts 444
Bernhard | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Nov 17 2021 2:14 AM

Can a for-profit company be a great help for the church and serve the kingdom? I believe it most definitely can, and I also believe if it is does not solely depend on how and at what price point things are offered. Far from it. We live in a world where things cost money. Bible software projects like TheWord are great, but it seems like their business model is not scalable. They need donations for the programmer to live on and they need volunteers to provide books. If Logos wanted to slash their prices, would you donate to them, so they could still pay their staff? And would you volunteer many hours to make sure your brothers and sisters have the resources they need?

(I have actually been wondering, why there is so little of a book builder community around Logos compared to the "free" Bible software programs - but I guess that depends on the user base and the fact that many of the books are already in the Logos catalogue.)

Even though I love free stuff or a good deal myself, I believe I don't have the right to be given anything for free. In the end the questions are: What do I need, what would I like to have? What will serve the kingdom? and then How I can get there? For me personally, that meant switching from using TheWord to Logos, but without buying any big packages. 

I believe your distinction of non-profit ministry = good and for-profit business = bad is maybe not biblical thinking. I also want to be very careful in judging how others approach these things (well, I do judge those who collect "non-profit" donations to buy a personal jet for their leader...).

And by the way, no one stops you from converting those free public domain books to Logos personal books yourself. I have myself provided a macro on this forum to do exactly that.

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MJ. Smith | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Nov 17 2021 2:38 AM

Steven Veach:
Very little is provided as how-to for academics.

They do have there own blog ... and Verbum videos are geared more towards academics.

Orthodox Bishop Hilarion Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."

Posts 1157
DMB | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Nov 17 2021 7:08 AM

Steven Veach:

I have noticed many of the instructional videos and webinars seem to be geared toward pastors, preaching, etc. Very little is provided as how-to for academics. Basic material is provided for general use, bible study, etc. 

True. But 'academic' is a pretty broad area ... theology, text-criticism, behavioral, etc. Just my observations over the years:

- Academic early on, was the more serious stuff ... eg interlinear inscription resources, hebrew-support, archaeology, etc. I always wondered where the market was.  That seems to have gone by the wayside. They struggle with a major resource per year (this year, english Strack). Most of the 'names' are gone.

- Now, they seem bent on datasets. Again, I wonder about the market, since completeness is always a question for academics, and how-useful for more routine use. Impresses.

- If I remember, the academic blog is pretty much moribund, summarizing quite well. The regular blog is largely Bible-ish (what folks are likely to disagree with).

But that said, in total, Logos far exceeds what's left of the competition. And if you work with multiple software (as I do), Logos is exceedingly good at export/analyze. I always feel like I'm in a candy store.

Posts 2671
David Thomas | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Nov 17 2021 7:16 AM

Steven Veach:
Very little is provided as how-to for academics.

Academics are (in my opinion) best done in community. I have found in my graduate studies that professors and colleagues provide how-to suggestions so that I am not dependent upon videos from Faithlife. just my $.02

Making Disciples!  Logos Ecosystem = Logos8 on Microsoft Surface Pro 4 (Win10), Android app on tablet, FSB on iPhone, [deprecated] Windows App, Proclaim, Faithlife.com, FaithlifeTV via Connect subscription.

Posts 989
xnman | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Nov 17 2021 11:07 AM

I am a WordSearch pushed into Logos studier. I knew WS, was happy with WS... had never run Logos... Then KA-POW.... now I'm in Logos!

I did experience sticker shock. WordSearch products, updates, etc. were cheaper. And since being in Logos I have spent a dollar two- on their products.

I don't know what Logos pays their developers... but I know a Python programmer makes about 80-120,00   a Java programmer makes about70-90,000, a C# or C++ programmer makes 90-125,000. My point is that programmers are not cheap.

I don't know, but I'd guess that WS had less programmers than Logos.

And I think some programmers can work for free... but most that I have talked/know need to make a living and thus the need for money for them to work.

I am sorry WS went under....I liked it... but it could be that they tried to be too cheap... and thus couldn't keep up with updates, new ideas, new books and things like that...

Like I said.... I don't know... but I'm a guessing. Geeked

xn = Christan  man=man -- Acts 11:26 "....and the disciples were first called Christians in Antioch".

Posts 236
Steven Veach | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Nov 17 2021 11:32 AM

xnman:

I am a WordSearch pushed into Logos studier. I knew WS, was happy with WS... had never run Logos... Then KA-POW.... now I'm in Logos!

I did experience sticker shock. WordSearch products, updates, etc. were cheaper. And since being in Logos I have spent a dollar two- on their products.

I don't know what Logos pays their developers... but I know a Python programmer makes about 80-120,00   a Java programmer makes about70-90,000, a C# or C++ programmer makes 90-125,000. My point is that programmers are not cheap.

I don't know, but I'd guess that WS had less programmers than Logos.

And I think some programmers can work for free... but most that I have talked/know need to make a living and thus the need for money for them to work.

I am sorry WS went under....I liked it... but it could be that they tried to be too cheap... and thus couldn't keep up with updates, new ideas, new books and things like that...

Like I said.... I don't know... but I'm a guessing. Geeked

 

Your account is interesting. I unfortunately came too late to try WordSearch. It was already shut down by the time I left TW5. From what I've read, I think I would have liked WordSearch, but I'm glad I was never exposed since it ultimately was unsustainable (for whatever reason). I would imagine the reasons for the business to be scuttled was many. Logos certainly didn't undercut them in price. Big Smile They could have been positioned in such a way that they felt too much pressure from both sides: Logos on one side and the free programs on the other. The pie was simply diced up too much. I would imagine if their prices were more affordable it could have been too little money left off for the shareholder's liking. They could do something else for more money elsewhere. Opportunity cost is real, though relative. It is also possible that Logos was able (pure speculation) to tie up publishers in exclusive deals that shut out WS from competing. WS might also not have had the user base to secure licensing deals with top publishers and so their library suffered and thus could not draw more of the market share. 

While I don't want to get into what is required to support a living (certainly not $120,000 or even $80,000). My siblings can't imagine living on $1000 / month. I don't have the heart to tell them I live on less than $400 month happily. They live hand to mouth (on triple what I make) yet I have the leisure and comfort they  crave but can't have. 

But, all of this is mute since Faithlife is for profit. If it were a ministry this would be different. Programmers would (hopefully) be expected to donate some or most of their time to help the church. But, since it is a for-profit business, then all the employees are just that. They are no different than employees at any other secular business. The market dictates everything. Pricing. Wages. Products, etc.  

In all of this I'm not saying that Logos should necessarily drop prices on all their products. I'm simply saying they are leaving many out of the tent. But businesses do this all the time. Ministries on the other hand are held to a higher standard and should not play favorites. But it's established Logos is just another business, not a ministry.  I don't know what they do with their money. There was a ministry job I looked at the other day that seemed great, but reviewed indicated that the top leadership made $120,000 a year while most of the ministry workers either had to work for free, minimum wage, or had to gin up external financial support. It's possible only a few at the top in Logos keep all the profits. It is also possible that Logos pays its programmers and other workers a great wage and its' a great place to work.  

Bottom line. Logos is a great program and can do things to help bible study and research the no other program can do. Their prices are also kind of high for some people who do not have disposable income. But it is a product and has no ties to the church, despite their marketing to the contrary. They can price the way they want. The end user decides if it's worth the cost. I personally keep walking away month after month from making purchases because, even at discounts the cost is too much to justify, especially given that I have several titles that I'm just now getting use out of. Logos actually might be doing me a favor by keeping extra resources just out of reach so I can make more use of what I already have. 

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Mike Binks | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Nov 18 2021 12:26 AM

Steven Veach:
It is also possible that Logos was able (pure speculation) to tie up publishers in exclusive deals that shut out WS from competing. WS might also not have had the user base to secure licensing deals with top publishers and so their library suffered and thus could not draw more of the market share. 

Probably speculation that should have remained unexpressed without, at the very least, a modicum of evidence. Comparing the size of Faithlife to the size of these publishing houses does make the speculation appear risible.

Steven Veach:
I don't know what they do with their money.

I don't know either but from the quality of the staff that I interact with I imagine, in a free market, they have no 'need' to work for Faithlife they must work there because they want to and working for Faithlife supplies their needs.

It is the same for the Kingdom builders, in the years I have been working on the building site money has never been a problem for what is needed. One may not have known from whence it would come, but come it always has. In fact more than I 'needed' often enough to supply many of my 'wants'.

I have little truck with those who mix up wants and needs. If one needs a tool for Kingdom building then I will be surprised if it does not become available. If one wants an esoteric tome for the purpose of arguing minutia then I will not be surprised to find the want unfulfilled.

Being a sustainable business does not rule out a management with good ethical standards, an investment in good, kind customer service, and a dedication to a quality product at a competitive price.

tootle pip

Mike

How to get logs and post them. (now tagging post-apocalyptic fiction as current affairs)

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