OP-ed on the NRSVue

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MJ. Smith | Forum Activity | Posted: Fri, Dec 24 2021 12:47 PM

Op-Ed: A new edition of the Bible, with 20,000 revisions, should spark 20,000 thoughtful conversations (msn.com)

Orthodox Bishop Hilarion Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."

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Kiyah | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Dec 24 2021 12:59 PM

MJ. Smith:

Not much new information here. This reads more like an extended ad than a review.

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DMB | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Dec 24 2021 1:18 PM

Maybe a recommended. I did pick up the recently released book After Jesus, Before Christianity, from the review.  It promises to be another logic-grinding opus, but should read.

https://www.amazon.com/After-Jesus-Before-Christianity-Exploration/dp/0063062151 

One reviewer thought it would revise world history ... not easy to do, after the fact. Ok, semantics. I'm still on my second reading of Frederiksen, and plan a third reading.

If Logos picks up NRSVue, it'd be good in a TC, if mainly to highlight translation choices.

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MJ. Smith | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Dec 24 2021 1:31 PM

Kiyah:
This reads more like an extended ad than a review.

Given the author that in itself is very interesting. Are you familiar with the Logos resource Taussig, Hal, and John Dominic Crossan Hal Taussig. A New New Testament: A Bible for the Twenty-First Century Combining Traditional and Newly Discovered Texts. New York, NY: Mariner Books, 2013.?

Orthodox Bishop Hilarion Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."

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Kiyah | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Dec 24 2021 3:50 PM

MJ. Smith:

Kiyah:
This reads more like an extended ad than a review.

Given the author that in itself is very interesting. Are you familiar with the Logos resource Taussig, Hal, and John Dominic Crossan Hal Taussig. A New New Testament: A Bible for the Twenty-First Century Combining Traditional and Newly Discovered Texts. New York, NY: Mariner Books, 2013.?

I'm more responding to what the author wrote than who he is. It's the style of the op-ed and what he chose to say. I was hoping someone would do an actual review. Maybe ad was a strong word, but it does read more like promotional material. He didn't give any additional examples above what was already released in the promotional materials. Maybe he himself wasn't intending to write an ad but it reads more like something that's meant to generate buzz for the NRSVue than actually give us an idea of the nature and quality of the revisions.

I've already looked through what they released in terms of sample changes (they didn't provide very many). I was hoping someone had actually gotten a hold of the whole thing and would give more insight than what we've already seen. He didn't say anything here beyond what they've already said about the reasoning for the more sensitive language.

Not necessarily looking for a full scholarly review (yet) but just more insight and samples of what was changed and someone's thoughtful, critical opinion of those changes. What he wrote here doesn't even require him to have looked at the full text, he only needed the same samples the rest of us already received.

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DMB | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Dec 24 2021 4:08 PM
Not sure why you'd not expect a full scholarly review ... maybe being nice. But a major translation update? Luckily you can get the Kindle or Apple version .... Aug 2, 2022!
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Kiyah | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Dec 24 2021 4:17 PM

DMB:
Not sure why you'd not expect a full scholarly review ... maybe being nice. But a major translation update? Luckily you can get the Kindle or Apple version .... Aug 2, 2022!

I am eventually expecting one, just not in the LA Times. But I was still hoping for more than this. It's standard industry practice now for newspapers to sell "ad" space in the OP-ED section where companies can include what is essentially a product promotion that reads like an OP-ED. Whether this was intended or not, that's what it reads like. This sounds like something the publisher (Friendship Press) asked him to write, and that solely based on the promotional materials they've already released.

I don't want to download their app and buy the thing in a format that I will never use, and they haven't made it available anywhere else yet, so I was hoping for more insight than this. Oh well, I'll continue to wait.

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Kathleen Marie | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Dec 24 2021 4:40 PM

For the past 70 years, the Revised Standard Version and 1989’s NRSV have been the go-to English Bible for students and scholars. This month’s NRSV update is especially well suited to opening a broader public conversation because it is not revised with a single-minded agenda by one denomination or faith, but with multiple nuanced goals by a joint working group including Jewish, Protestant, Orthodox and Catholic scholars. For the public then, these revisions are not so much fine-tuning of doctrine as expansion of the Bible’s range.

Has the NRSV been the "go-to English Bible for students and scholars"? Was the RSV more widely used by students and scholars than the NRSV?

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MJ. Smith | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Dec 24 2021 4:44 PM

You and I appear to have a different definition of "ad" - but no problem, I didn't expect it to be useful to everyone.

Orthodox Bishop Hilarion Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."

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MJ. Smith | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Dec 24 2021 4:52 PM

Kathleen Marie:
Has the NRSV been the "go-to English Bible for students and scholars"?

The easiest way to check this is to check which Bibles scholarly monographs reference. I have come to the conclusion that the Evangelicals and similar organization have their go-to Bible which changes with a greater frequency than the ACELO-Mainstream Protestants' (ACELO=Anglican-Catholic-Eastern Orthodox-Lutheran-Oriental Orthodox) go-to Bible which appears to be the ecumenical canon NRSV. While there are some conservatives who cling to the RSV, in it's heyday it competed against the NEB and JB so I doubt it was more widely used. In my library it is RSV 813 vs. NRSV 1,114

Orthodox Bishop Hilarion Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."

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DMB | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Dec 24 2021 6:16 PM
Kiyah, I hope I wasn't unusually confusing. I was agreeing with you ... such a major translation and release demands scholarly reviews. I know this sounds awful, but after the NIV experience, and I guess now, the NRSV, there seems to be Simon Magus working at the helm of the translation business.
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Lew Worthington | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Dec 24 2021 6:33 PM

Thanks for bringing the op-ed piece to our attention, MJ. I'm looking forward to its release in Logos. 

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Kathleen Marie | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Dec 24 2021 6:50 PM

MJ. Smith:

Kathleen Marie:
Has the NRSV been the "go-to English Bible for students and scholars"?

The easiest way to check this is to check which Bibles scholarly monographs reference. I have come to the conclusion that the Evangelicals and similar organization have their go-to Bible which changes with a greater frequency than the ACELO-Mainstream Protestants' (ACELO=Anglican-Catholic-Eastern Orthodox-Lutheran-Oriental Orthodox) go-to Bible which appears to be the ecumenical canon NRSV. While there are some conservatives who cling to the RSV, in it's heyday it competed against the ESV and JB so I doubt it was more widely used. In my library it is RSV 813 vs. NRSV 1,114

I just keep thinking that I don't know what I don't know. The more I am learning, the more I learn that there is still to learn.

I had no idea the translation was that popular. Even looking at scholarly monographs, the lists of recommended scholarly monographs that I have been directed to never quote the NRSV. The NRSV was just dismissed by people that I was looking to as authorities. It was compared to the short-lived Zondervan translation that preceded the current NIV. With certain professors, I am not sure that I would be allowed to use the NRSV in a situation where it seemed to contradict other translations.

My new Wisdom Commentaries quote the NRSV and that was the first time I ever really looked at the NRSV translation as an important part of my studies. Even my recent Anglican and Catholic studies have directed me to the RSV2E and the ESVCE, and the RSVCE and NABRE. The place I saw it pop up most was the 1979 BCP people and that was the prayer book that I studied the least. I think my African Study Bible uses a special NLT with more books; I am not sure if that is even an official version.

I am obviously still not looking widely enough, even though I am trying to look wider. I still don't know what I don't know.

Thank you!

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Ken McGuire | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Dec 24 2021 6:59 PM

Kathleen Marie:
Has the NRSV been the "go-to English Bible for students and scholars"? Was the RSV more widely used by students and scholars than the NRSV?

NRSV has probably been the standard translation used in secular educational institutions in the USA. In addition, it has been the standard translation for mainline protestants. I attended a mainline seminary when the NRSV was new, and the OT faculty loved it as a huge step up from RSV, while the NT faculty were a bit more critical - seeing it as a good translation, but we were told that the RSV was actually a more "literal" translation of the Greek.

Part of this was just how old the RSV OT was - it hadn't been revised since the 1950's, while the RSV NT had been revised in 1970...

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MJ. Smith | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Dec 24 2021 7:32 PM

Oops, I meant NEB not ESV ...

Orthodox Bishop Hilarion Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."

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MJ. Smith | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Dec 24 2021 7:50 PM

Kathleen Marie:
Catholic studies have directed me to the RSV2E and the ESVCE

It is my informal observation that the strongest proponents of the RSVCE and RSVCE are what I refer to as "professional converts" to Catholicism -- Faithlife carries a large number of their resources -- think Scott Hahn, Mark Shea, Dave Armstrong ...The ESV-CE is rather new ... the result of generally unsuccessful attempts to use the NRSV for the lectionary and switching to the ESV instead.

Orthodox Bishop Hilarion Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."

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Kathleen Marie | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Dec 24 2021 7:50 PM

MJ. Smith:

Oops, I meant NEB not ESV ...

That saves me some research and misunderstanding. I was confused. Thanks so much for clarifying!

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Kathleen Marie | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Dec 24 2021 7:57 PM

Ken McGuire:

NRSV has probably been the standard translation used in secular educational institutions in the USA. In addition, it has been the standard translation for mainline protestants. I attended a mainline seminary when the NRSV was new, and the OT faculty loved it as a huge step up from RSV, while the NT faculty were a bit more critical - seeing it as a good translation, but we were told that the RSV was actually a more "literal" translation of the Greek.

Part of this was just how old the RSV OT was - it hadn't been revised since the 1950's, while the RSV NT had been revised in 1970...

I am understanding more and more. Thank you!

Can someone clarify "mainline Protestant". Is this considered a debatable term? I think what I have thought it means is not what is being discussed here, and I am not sure how or why.

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MJ. Smith | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Dec 24 2021 8:00 PM

Wikipedia:Mainline Protestant:

The mainline Protestant churches (also called mainstream Protestant[1] and sometimes oldline Protestant)[2][3][4] are a group of Protestant denominations in the United States that contrast in history and practice with evangelicalfundamentalist, and charismatic Protestant denominations. . . .

The largest mainline churches in the United States, often referred to as the "Seven Sisters of American Protestantism", are as follows:

Smaller denominations also widely considered mainline include, but are not limited to, the Reformed Church in America, the Mennonite Church, the Church of the Brethren and the Moravian Church in North America, as well as many groupings of the Religious Society of Friends (Quakers).

Orthodox Bishop Hilarion Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."

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Kathleen Marie | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Dec 24 2021 8:05 PM

MJ. Smith:

The largest mainline churches in the United States, often referred to as the "Seven Sisters of American Protestantism", are as follows:

Smaller denominations also widely considered mainline include, but are not limited to,

Thanks, MJ!

Not what I was thinking. I am curious what the authors and people were thinking that I must have gotten my thinking from. Interesting. Thanks!

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