Judah as a New Testament Person

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Kathleen Marie | Forum Activity | Posted: Sun, Jan 16 2022 6:33 PM

January is the month of reading plans and genealogies. Many of us are reading from both Matthew and Genesis, and although the expectation is that I think genealogies are boring, I don't.

I have an upcoming paper for a biography of anyone in the book of Matthew. Technically, Judah (the son of the patriarch Jacob) is listed as an ancestor of Jesus. And this is important to the book of Matthew. Important in ways that I want to explore.

I could pump out a paper about John the baptist that is identical to thousands of others, but before I do that, I want to investigate the possibility of tweaking this assignment to allow me to discover the role Judah plays in the book of Matthew.

I don't know what I don't know. Can anyone point me in a direction? Maybe I should just drop this, but I am not quite ready to do that. I never noticed that it is Leah, not Rachel, that is the line of Jesus. I am following along in a reading plan with a church and the Pastor's comments about Leah and Judah have set off a fireworks of thoughts in my head that were not there in previous readings of Matthew and Genesis.

This is a 4 credit class, and the paper is not due until the end. I have time to read and research this topic and I want to read as diversely as possible. Are there recognized "experts" on Judah? I know to look for the recommended commentaries on specific books and I will do that. But if there is something special that I would likely miss in basic searching, could someone point me in the right direction. I feel like there might be something big that I am clueless about.

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DMB | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Jan 16 2022 6:55 PM

Gen 49:10

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Allen Browne | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Jan 16 2022 11:51 PM

Kathleen Marie:
January is the month of reading plans and genealogies. Many of us are reading from both Matthew and Genesis, and although the expectation is that I think genealogies are boring, I don't.

I have an upcoming paper for a biography of anyone in the book of Matthew. Technically, Judah (the son of the patriarch Jacob) is listed as an ancestor of Jesus. And this is important to the book of Matthew. Important in ways that I want to explore.

Love the questioning mind, Kathleen. Since Judah isn't mentioned after the first 31 verses, his role is limited to setting up the story. He's the ancestor of David whose anointed kingship opens the book (1:1) and who is the heart of the genealogy (rises to David, and falls from there).

Since Jews are largely descendants of Judah, you might want to consider whether to treat the "king of the Jews" as references to Judah's descendants. The opening genealogy lists the kings of Judah (not Israel) of course, and that remains the focus in the "son of David" passages, though Jesus extends hope to the nations at Abraham's table as well.

HTH.

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Jack Caviness | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Jan 17 2022 8:00 AM

You do realize that Judas is the Greek equivalent of the Hebrew name Judah, don't you? Now how you can incorporate that into a paper is up to you. Wink

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DMB | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Jan 17 2022 8:06 AM

Allen Browne:

Since Jews are largely descendants of Judah, you might want to consider whether to treat the "king of the Jews" as references to Judah's descendants. The opening genealogy lists the kings of Judah (not Israel) of course, and that remains the focus in the "son of David" passages, though Jesus extends hope to the nations at Abraham's table as well.

Not to intrude on Kathleen's quest, but really? Each statement is flawed, but maybe doesn't matter.

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Kathleen Marie | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Jan 17 2022 9:19 AM

Allen Browne:

Love the questioning mind, Kathleen. Since Judah isn't mentioned after the first 31 verses, his role is limited to setting up the story. He's the ancestor of David whose anointed kingship opens the book (1:1) and who is the heart of the genealogy (rises to David, and falls from there).

Since Jews are largely descendants of Judah, you might want to consider whether to treat the "king of the Jews" as references to Judah's descendants. The opening genealogy lists the kings of Judah (not Israel) of course, and that remains the focus in the "son of David" passages, though Jesus extends hope to the nations at Abraham's table as well.

HTH.

This is immensely helpful!

My one year subscription to the Catholic video series for the Bible Timeline is ticking down. I think finishing that will set me up to ask better questions. I need to increase my understanding of overview if I am going to pull this off and before I start hitting the academic articles. I am going to power down on that. I have enough background to understand exactly what you are saying, but not enough to write about it or even phrase the right questions. Thank you!

DMB:

Not to intrude on Kathleen's quest, but really? Each statement is flawed, but maybe doesn't matter.

I need to understand the big picture, and that is always going to include controversies. Please direct me to alternative overviews! I love to include diversity. My experience with my current school is that as long as my paper is footnoted and in full Chicago format, they allow me full freedom to include diverse ideas and sources. My first paper was graded harshly, but my later papers were all given 100%. The main difference was amount of formatting and the number of footnotes. My goal is to learn as much as I can as fast as I can, and that includes practicing what I am allowed to practice with my current school. I am respectful when I don't have permissions, but run with those that I do have.

Jack Caviness:

You do realize that Judas is the Greek equivalent of the Hebrew name Judah, don't you? Now how you can incorporate that into a paper is up to you. Wink

I stumbled upon something about this and was not sure if I should follow up on it. I think I will. Thanks!

Thank you every one! Going off-topic to discuss controversies might be more helpful than distracting to me. I don't mind at all if anyone wants to  point me to controversial resources in the Logos library or on the Logos blog somewhere. We need to keep within forum rules, but the Logos library is wide enough that I think we can do that.

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DMB | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Jan 17 2022 9:39 AM

Kathleen Marie:

I need to understand the big picture, and that is always going to include controversies. Please direct me to alternative overviews! I love to include diversity. My experience with my current school is that as long as my paper is footnoted and in full Chicago format, they allow me full freedom to include diverse ideas and sources. My first paper was graded harshly, but my later papers were all given 100%. The main difference was amount of formatting and the number of footnotes. My goal is to learn as much as I can as fast as I can, and that includes practicing what I am allowed to practice with my current school. I am respectful when I don't have permissions, but run with those that I do have.

I don't think I'd paint the Old Testament as 'alternative'/'diverse', nor the New, for that matter. Smiling. Start with who got shipped by the Assyrians per both the OT and Assyrian records. Then, who actually returned. Then, where most Israelites lived, at the time of Jesus.

That said, jews/Judah has almost nothing to do with Matthew's lineage sequence, beyond the obvious entry of Joseph, of course.

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Kathleen Marie | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Jan 17 2022 10:18 AM

DMB:

I don't think I'd paint the Old Testament as 'alternative'/'diverse', nor the New, for that matter. Smiling. Start with who got shipped by the Assyrians per both the OT and Assyrian records. Then, who actually returned. Then, where most Israelites lived, at the time of Jesus.

That said, jews/Judah has almost nothing to do with Matthew's lineage sequence, beyond the obvious entry of Joseph, of course.

I think I understand. I think I understand enough to know where to start studying. I keep a folder on my browser toolbar called "Current Paper". I have bookmarked this thread and saved it in that folder. So even if I don't 100% know exactly what you mean, then I will be able to come back and review.

I have been looking at some maps and skimming some encyclopedias. It is the areas that I know the least, that will be the source of my thesis. The more I look at this, the more I realize that I must learn if I want to attempt this.

The school is being good about not requiring me to parrot their denomination, as long as my paper is polished looking and what I write is swallowed up in footnotes. I am interested in this topic. I want to know more. I want to know even more than what I will include in the paper.

Last night, in my studies, I was thinking that I should do a topic study on "Messiah". I suddenly realized that I really don't know as much as I thought I did. More encyclopedia and atlas reading and the video series should supply me with more keywords.

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Allen Browne | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Jan 17 2022 2:38 PM

DMB:
Allen Browne:
Since Jews are largely descendants of Judah ...

Not to intrude on Kathleen's quest, but really? ...

Okay, the connection is more etymological than genealogical. Chronicles certainly held out the hope of "all Israel" redeemed through the returned exiles of Judah, and Matthew 1 is talking about a descendant of Judah born to save his people.

Like you say, that's probably as much as we should say here.

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DMB | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Jan 17 2022 3:14 PM

Allen Browne:

DMB:
Allen Browne:
Since Jews are largely descendants of Judah ...

Not to intrude on Kathleen's quest, but really? ...

Well, your comment motivated me to see if recent DNA progress gave clues on where everyone ended up (jews). As best I can see, it's pretty loosey-goosey DNA-wise (limited sampling), and names are touch and go. But I may have learned why Paul trek'd north from the coast, to Iconium, given the 'end' was in sight (being a lazy hiker, I'd of stuck to the coast).

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Kathleen Marie | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Jan 17 2022 4:24 PM

Allen Browne:

Okay, the connection is more etymological than genealogical. Chronicles certainly held out the hope of "all Israel" redeemed through the returned exiles of Judah, and Matthew 1 is talking about a descendant of Judah born to save his people.

Like you say, that's probably as much as we should say here.

DMB:

Well, your comment motivated me to see if recent DNA progress gave clues on where everyone ended up (jews). As best I can see, it's pretty loosey-goosey DNA-wise (limited sampling), and names are touch and go. But I may have learned why Paul trek'd north from the coast, to Iconium, given the 'end' was in sight (being a lazy hiker, I'd of stuck to the coast).

Your responses are riddled with words and phrases that I can use to search Logos, that I never would have come up with on my own. I cannot search the full Logos library without being informed of the most common controversies. Thank you both.

Are there books in Logos that will discuss in depth some of the topics that you two are mentioning and alluding to?

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DMB | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Jan 17 2022 7:18 PM

Well, Kathleen, the area that caught your attention (Matthew geneology) is fraught with many issues, and unsolved speculation. Judah is easy enough ... he was a major predictor of the messiah, well before Jesus arrived. But some of the women are curious, and the inclusion of the worst king ever (made God so mad, it ended in the whole shebang being destroyed ... captivity, etc) was in the list. So, your choice is not easy.

Regarding resources per my comment, most are archaeology discoveries linked to OT passages (here and there).

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MJ. Smith | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Jan 17 2022 7:37 PM

Raymond Brown does a nice job on the genealogy

Orthodox Bishop Hilarion Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."

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Allen Browne | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Jan 17 2022 8:02 PM

Kathleen Marie:
Are there books in Logos that will discuss in depth some of the topics that you two are mentioning and alluding to?

Any commentaries on Mt 1 will probably help. My favorite is Dick France, The Gospel of Matthew (NICNT series).

Or this simple blog post provides some suggestions and quotes: Why ancestry.com? (Mt 1:1-17).

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Kathleen Marie | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Jan 18 2022 8:09 PM

MJ. Smith:

Raymond Brown does a nice job on the genealogy

In a specific book, or in all his books?

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Kathleen Marie | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Jan 18 2022 8:17 PM

Allen Browne:

Kathleen Marie:
Are there books in Logos that will discuss in depth some of the topics that you two are mentioning and alluding to?

Any commentaries on Mt 1 will probably help. My favorite is Dick France, The Gospel of Matthew (NICNT series).

Or this simple blog post provides some suggestions and quotes: Why ancestry.com? (Mt 1:1-17).

Thank you so much!!! My library has the commentary, so I can start using their copy immediately while I save up for the Logos version. The blog post is great!

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MJ. Smith | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Jan 18 2022 8:28 PM

Kathleen Marie:

MJ. Smith:

Raymond Brown does a nice job on the genealogy

In a specific book, or in all his books?

I think Brown, Raymond E. The Birth of the Messiah: A Commentary on the Infancy Narratives in the Gospels of Matthew and Luke. New Updated Edition. New York; London: Yale University Press, 1993. carries most of the argument. Somehow, in my mind this is also relevant Brown, Raymond E. Reading the Gospels with the Church: From Christmas through Easter. Eugene, OR: Wipf & Stock, 2008.

Orthodox Bishop Hilarion Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."

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Justin Gatlin | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Jan 18 2022 8:30 PM

Here is a broader idea: search all of your commentaries about Matthew for the word "Judah."

Search

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Kathleen Marie | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Jan 18 2022 8:33 PM

DMB:

Well, Kathleen, the area that caught your attention (Matthew geneology) is fraught with many issues, and unsolved speculation. Judah is easy enough ... he was a major predictor of the messiah, well before Jesus arrived. But some of the women are curious, and the inclusion of the worst king ever (made God so mad, it ended in the whole shebang being destroyed ... captivity, etc) was in the list. So, your choice is not easy.

Regarding resources per my comment, most are archaeology discoveries linked to OT passages (here and there).

I think I am going to try and focus on genealogy, and leave as much of the archeology and genetics and science for another paper. I'm not sure yet how to judge the genealogy, or if I even want to judge it. I am not sure I must judge it for every possible theses. I am still far too uninformed to know that yet. To those of you that know so much more than me, maybe it is obvious to you that I must judge the people in the genealogies, and prove each part accurate to use them. I'm going to childishly explore for a bit longer and see what I discover, before I decide this is all entirely impossible.

I have some time. I am learning. It is all good.

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Kathleen Marie | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Jan 18 2022 8:36 PM

MJ. Smith:

I think Brown, Raymond E. The Birth of the Messiah: A Commentary on the Infancy Narratives in the Gospels of Matthew and Luke. New Updated Edition. New York; London: Yale University Press, 1993. carries most of the argument. Somehow, in my mind this is also relevant Brown, Raymond E. Reading the Gospels with the Church: From Christmas through Easter. Eugene, OR: Wipf & Stock, 2008.

Thanks! I saw both those books when I searched for the author. They both look really interesting to read.

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