Judah as a New Testament Person

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Jack Caviness | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Jan 21 2022 8:16 AM

Kathleen Marie:

Kevin A Lewis:

As is "Jude"

Hmm. That is interesting!

Note that in Matthew 13:55 he is called Judas. Perhaps Jude is a desire to avoid the more unsavory Greek equivalent of Judah. Hmm

Posts 710
Kathleen Marie | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Jan 21 2022 8:26 AM

Jack Caviness:

Kathleen Marie:

Kevin A Lewis:

As is "Jude"

Hmm. That is interesting!

Note that in Matthew 13:55 he is called Judas. Perhaps Jude is a desire to avoid the more unsavory Greek equivalent of Judah. Hmm

Interesting that a name attached to a Messiah could become a name attached to betrayal. There is something more to follow here.

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Justin Gatlin | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Jan 21 2022 2:01 PM

Kathleen Marie:

Interesting that a name attached to a Messiah could become a name attached to betrayal.

I would be careful about pushing this too far: 


Tal Ilan has made a comprehensive study of the some twenty-three hundred Jewish personal names that are attested from 330 BC to AD 200. Ilan found that 150 male biblical names served 73.4 percent of the population (Ilan 2002, 5). What is striking is that the names of the greatest biblical heroes (such as Abraham, Moses, Aaron, David, Solomon, and Elijah) were not used by Jews of the Second Temple period. This is also true of the names recorded in the Aramaic Elephantine Papyri from Egypt (5th–3rd c. BC): “Abraham, Jacob, Joseph, Moses, Samuel, or David … do not occur here” (Cohen, 97).
The ten most popular male names in the corpus Ilan studied are Simon, Joseph, Judah, Eleazar, Yohanan, Joshua, Hananiah, Jonathan, Mattathias, and Menahem (Ilan 2002, 56). In the second century BC, the rise of the Maccabean family created an interest in naming Jewish boys after the names of the brothers of this family (Yohanan, Simon, Judah, Eleazar, and Jonathan), as well as the father (Mattathias).


Richard S. Hess, “Names,” in Dictionary of Daily Life in Biblical & Post-Biblical Antiquity (Peabody, MA: Hendrickson Publishers, 2016), 451.

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DMB | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Jan 21 2022 2:45 PM

Very interesting, Justin.  I was also impressed with Josephus' formal name.  Reading a novel, I was reminded of earlier days growing up ... Jacob begat Judas (in the Inspired Translation, of course).

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Kathleen Marie | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Jan 21 2022 6:53 PM

Justin Gatlin:

I would be careful about pushing this too far: 

Wow, so interesting!

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Kathleen Marie | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Jan 21 2022 6:59 PM

DMB:

Very interesting, Justin.  I was also impressed with Josephus' formal name.  Reading a novel, I was reminded of earlier days growing up ... Jacob begat Judas (in the Inspired Translation, of course).

Inspired Translation? Sometimes I have no idea what you are talking about. Sometimes I think you are making jokes that I don't understand. Other times I think you are talking about topics that I know nothing about. I think you must be much smarter than me, and that I cannot keep up. I'd rather admit my ignorance than have you think I am being rude, so I am just warning you, that I often have NO idea what you are talking about.

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MJ. Smith | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Jan 21 2022 7:44 PM

Kathleen Marie:
Inspired Translation? Sometimes I have no idea what you are talking about. Sometimes I think you are making jokes that I don't understand. Other times I think you are talking about topics that I know nothing about. I think you must be much smarter than me, and that I cannot keep up

There is a group of Christians that adamantly accept one English translation and only that translation. That is the translation to which DMB is referring. Because the customer base is so broad, there are always things one thinks are "common knowledge" that are not. And the makeup of the group is constantly changing - I got caught up in controversy for using a term of endearment that had gotten no response a few years ago but an irate response last year. Don't assume that others are smarter than you, assume that they are knowledgeable about areas different than those you are knowledgeable about. Never assume that your knowledge will match DMB's on the application of text processing/AI on 2nd temple writings ... and take into account she is a preacher's daughter from a very logic driven denomination.

Orthodox Bishop Hilarion Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."

Posts 1174
DMB | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Jan 22 2022 4:36 AM

Sorry, Kathleen.  As MJ hints at, it's the highly regarded (by many; not me) King James Version.  To be honest, when I read in my novel (the begats; the lady was putting her benefactor to sleep purposely), I didn't immediately recognize it ... I had to google the KJV!  That shows how time erases old memories in favor of the new.

Posts 5921
SineNomine | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Jan 22 2022 11:11 AM

Kathleen Marie:
Sometimes I have no idea what you are talking about.

Don't worry. After a few years, that happens less often with DMB. Smile

Please use descriptive thread titles to attract helpful posts & not waste others' time. Thanks!

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Kiyah | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Jan 22 2022 11:30 AM

SineNomine:

Kathleen Marie:
Sometimes I have no idea what you are talking about.

Don't worry. After a few years, that happens less often with DMB. Smile

Decoding DMB's posts is always a fun challenge. lol

Posts 232
Olli-Pekka Ylisuutari | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Jan 22 2022 1:22 PM

Kathleen Marie:

Technically, Judah (the son of the patriarch Jacob) is listed as an ancestor of Jesus. And this is important to the book of Matthew. Important in ways that I want to explore.

Without getting into any arguments, John P. Meier writes: "The Epistle to the Hebrews does mention—as an apparent obstacle to its thesis that Jesus is the high priest of the new covenant—that he was of the tribe of Judah, not Levi (Hebrews 7:14)."

Meier continues: "The NT never states that Mary was of the tribe of Judah or of the house of David. The only indication of Mary’s lineage is given in Luke 1, where Elizabeth is said to be both “of the daughters of Aaron” (Luke 1:5, hence of an elite priestly line within the tribe of Levi) and a “kinswoman” of Mary (v 36, syggenis, a vague term). If we take Luke at his word, Mary would be of levitical, and perhaps Aaronic, descent."

Here's something for you to explore.

Logos 9 Anglican Diamond, Logos 9 Lutheran Diamond

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Kathleen Marie | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Jan 22 2022 3:23 PM

Olli-Pekka Ylisuutari:

John P. Meier writes: ... Elizabeth is said to be both “of the daughters of Aaron” (Luke 1:5, hence of an elite priestly line within the tribe of Levi) and a “kinswoman” of Mary ...  Here's something for you to explore.

Thanks!

Meier, Brown, Hahn. and patristic stuff from the Verbum legacy libraries along with some Messianic, Baptist, Pentacostal, and SDA stuff from the Logos legacy libraries should be fun!

So ... Hahn has a 2009 book in Logos called Kinship by Covenant with the same name as his 1995 dissertation. The dissertation seems to have influenced a lot of books written after it. Hahn says he rewrote not revised his work twice. I see the later book on Logos, but can we still get the dissertation in Logos? I see that Hahn did an EWTN video series (for sale updated and free originals on youtube) with Jeff Cavins, but that they both went on to separate and update their work on separate projects. I asked my library to get the dissertation. They usually cannot get articles, this was extensively published in a large hardcover book. I'm more curious about the older stuff and how it is influencing all that is being published now. I'm going to use the "cited by" tool in Goggle scholar as much as possible.

Somewhere in here is something really good. I feel it. As I read and watch bits, I get a whiff of something.

Sometimes when I write a paper, I have 3 footnotes in a single sentence. This was messy in MLA at the community college and I asked my professors what to do. They never told me about Chicago style. Maybe the best part of this pandemic was being introduced to Chicago Style! Transitioning to Chicago has been HARD, but I love love love footnotes or endnotes compared to in-text citations! I want to keep reading widely and tunnel down to the resources that started the conversations. Many works will only get used for a phrase or not directly at all, but having read the works will indirectly change what I say as a thesis.

I smell something good, even if I don't know what it is.

January feels distorted to me. I have learned so much in a short amount of my time that my brain cannot comprehend that such a short period of time has passed. I keep thinking it must be February by now. Thank you all!!!

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Kathleen Marie | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Jan 22 2022 3:37 PM

MJ. Smith:

There is a group of Christians that adamantly accept one English translation and only that translation. ... I got caught up in controversy for using a term of endearment ... Don't assume that others are smarter than you, ... Never assume that your knowledge will match DMB's on the application of text processing/AI on 2nd temple writings ... and take into account she is a preacher's daughter from a very logic driven denomination.

DMB:

Sorry, Kathleen.  As MJ hints at, it's the highly regarded (by many; not me) King James Version.  To be honest, when I read in my novel (the begats; the lady was putting her benefactor to sleep purposely), I didn't immediately recognize it ... I had to google the KJV!  That shows how time erases old memories in favor of the new.

SineNomine:

Don't worry. After a few years, that happens less often with DMB. Smile

Kiyah:

Decoding DMB's posts is always a fun challenge. lol

Thank everyone! Okay, on a Baptist board, I might have guessed that, but here is so much wider, and I had no idea of DMB's background. My upbringing was eclectic as is the background of most children born overseas to parents that are addicts. LOL. I have attended KJV only churches. And lots and lots of others. One of my parents got saved in a cult, and stayed sober for a long time. I am accepting and tolerant and GRATEFUL to the groups that have spiritually abused and misled me. A sober parent was worth it.

I do want to reread some Scofield and some Dake and I think it is fun to paste that all together with Hahn and Augustine and Jewish scholars. I love this project!

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MJ. Smith | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Jan 22 2022 4:53 PM

As for the very logic-driven denomination think: "LOCKE, JOHN (1632-1704), whom Alexander Campbell called “the Christian philosopher,” influenced the Stone-Campbell Movement both directly through his writings and indirectly through Scottish Common Sense Realism. The British empiricist philosopher defined the Enlightenment for American theology in the eighteenth and early nineteenth centuries. Three of Locke’s books were particularly significant for Campbell’s philosophical and theological development. His Essay Concerning Human Understanding (1689) shaped Campbell’s epistemology, his A Letter Concerning Toleration (1690) partly formed Campbell’s understanding of unity and the virtue of tolerance, and his Reasonableness of Christianity (1695) forged his theological method where he eschewed speculative theories and concentrated on the “facts” of the gospel system. Apologetically, Campbell was a practitioner of the “Christian Evidence” movement, which was rooted in Locke and implemented by Paley. Theologically, Campbell intended to root his thought in the simple confession that Jesus is the Christ and the minimal “facts” of the Christian story. The confession of these facts and a moral lifestyle provided the foundation of unity for both Locke and Campbell."

Orthodox Bishop Hilarion Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."

Posts 710
Kathleen Marie | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Jan 22 2022 6:10 PM

MJ. Smith:

As for the very logic-driven denomination think: "LOCKE, JOHN (1632-1704), whom Alexander Campbell called “the Christian philosopher,” influenced the Stone-Campbell Movement both directly through his writings and indirectly through Scottish Common Sense Realism. The British empiricist philosopher defined the Enlightenment for American theology in the eighteenth and early nineteenth centuries. Three of Locke’s books were particularly significant for Campbell’s philosophical and theological development. His Essay Concerning Human Understanding (1689) shaped Campbell’s epistemology, his A Letter Concerning Toleration (1690) partly formed Campbell’s understanding of unity and the virtue of tolerance, and his Reasonableness of Christianity (1695) forged his theological method where he eschewed speculative theories and concentrated on the “facts” of the gospel system. Apologetically, Campbell was a practitioner of the “Christian Evidence” movement, which was rooted in Locke and implemented by Paley. Theologically, Campbell intended to root his thought in the simple confession that Jesus is the Christ and the minimal “facts” of the Christian story. The confession of these facts and a moral lifestyle provided the foundation of unity for both Locke and Campbell."

The divisions among these groups confuse me and I am not sure what are the boundaries of this group, and who is and is not a member. And I think some would insist that grouping itself is impossible. Some of these people are on my grateful list, but are not the only ones on my grateful list. I see the churches that I have attended as my family, my messy messy family, with lots of branches, each a unique brand of messy.

I am the descendant of books and churches more than any country or race or surname. For awhile, I thought I had no identity and fretted over that. Now, I claim the churches and books as my family, and the most controversial and "bad" ones are some of the ones that I claim as mine the loudest. Truth is stranger than fiction, and who reaches out to save a child in danger are sometimes the ones that no one would expect to do such a thing. And only people that have lived in the most severe isolation and deprivation can ever understand the impact of a single book on a person.

I don't know where I am going, but I am beginning to understand who I am. I cherish my peeps, all my peeps, even the ones that have wronged me. The Bible has a lot to say about those that have wronged us. I am at peace.

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