WANTED: Logosian or Verbumian interested in apologetics/polemics and argument mapping
I would like to find a partner for a long haul project for building argument maps for key disputed topics in theology and perhaps even argument maps of what particular theologians have to say about the topic. This would involve writing a post to a Faithlife group -- one or two a week - either in response to an existing post or as a new item of support for your side. Each topic would begin with setting out definition of terms for the topic. The argument map will be built in Canvas using the format of Rationale - online argument mapping (rationaleonline.com). The Faithlife group in which it runs may have additional members and discussion but myself and said partner will have the last say as to what goes on the argument maps. First topic is "sola scriptura/solo scriptura". I'll take the scripture and tradition side. I need someone to take the sola side. Any takers?
Orthodox Bishop Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."; Orthodox proverb: "We know where the Church is, we do not know where it is not."
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That'd be a nice project!
I think (maybe excessively), you'd need further project definition? As an example, scripture is tradition (even as quoted in the scripture ... errr ... tradition or per Paul, received). I well recognize the 'sola' people, but eventually they have to arrive in the 2nd century with Turtulian (each bishop approved ....).
Ok, I'll be quiet.
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DMB said:
I think (maybe excessively), you'd need further project definition?
You are absolutely right -- but I want whoever is game enough to join me to collaborate on the more precise definition. I want a serious argument map not assumptions stacled for a foregone conclusion as in many apologetic works.
Orthodox Bishop Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."; Orthodox proverb: "We know where the Church is, we do not know where it is not."
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I got to thinking, who. Then, I saw Joseph as the exact fit. He's smart, well-read, even going (thinks things out), and goes with the evidence. I nominate Joseph (hope he's not offended ... we disagree quite a bit). There's obviously more that easily fit, but I'm assuming you want not too (justifiably) biased.
I just finished my mindmap for Fredriksen's Jesus. Recommended by Ehrman, as the best historical Jesus (emphasis on historian). Quite surprising. Now, for her Paul volume ... I suspect she's going to get in trouble.
Ok ... your project! And bumping the thread.
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Not qualified but would love to be part of the group and observe the thought process as a member with read only restriction!
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I'll add you as soon as I get a partner ...
Orthodox Bishop Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."; Orthodox proverb: "We know where the Church is, we do not know where it is not."
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I'd be interested in following along as well. I'm probably not qualified, nor do I have the time to substantially assist. But I would definitely to observe and expand my exposure to the discussion.
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When this project gets going, please add my name to the list of readers as well.
Joseph F. Sollenberger, Jr.
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Obrigado!
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I don't have the background or training to be of help, but I will be interested to see how this project goes. Who is the intended audience for the completed argument map? How will it be used? In sholarly pursuits, daily devotions, personal study, sermon preparation???
And he will turn the hearts of fathers to their children and the hearts of children to their fathers (Mal 4:6a)
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I don't know which Joseph Denise was talking about, but he has no business disagreeing with her! Other than that, he sounds like a great guy, but he hasn't replied, so I will, as I have come back to this thread several times. I would like to be able to help, but my biggest concern would be the time element. I have a writing project that I want to pursue, so I need to find time to do that. If I were to enter into this project, I would spend all of whatever spare time I can find on it.
I would want to know initially the answer to John Connell's questions, particularly: Who is the intended audience and how will it be used? Is this something that you see that could eventually be implemented in some way into Logos? Feel free to send me a DM with more info if you have it.
It's certainly a great idea.
Disclaimer: I hate using messaging, texting, and email for real communication. If anything that I type to you seems like anything other than humble and respectful, then I have not done a good job typing my thoughts.
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Further information: Consider this a pilot project that is a proof of concept with three goals:
- To show the importance of having argument mapping available in Logos - either through Canvas or a new tool
- To support apologetics and polemics by identifying the actual points of disagreement as opposed to the differences that are either simply a difference in terminology or immaterial to worship, behavior, and salvation.
- To document theological arguments in terms the average Logos/Verbum user can understand without oversimplifying to the point of misrepresenting a position.
If the proof of concept works out, I would then like to work through the Lexham Survey of Theology systematically and build a supplement to it. I had assumed this would be available as a PB covered by the same copyright rules as academic papers.
I chose to start with the sola scriptura topic because (a) it is a foundational difference in what evidence the different positions consider and (b) it is often misunderstood as identical to solo scripture. Note other important positions include confessional, progressive, and big T Tradition. I expect it to move very slowly at first as behind the scenes I will be trying to convert the reasoning into a formal format. For those interested in reasoning, think more Douglas Walton than Frege, Russell, and Wittgenstein
As I am much more a liturgist than a theologian, I suspect that I will be the one who is slowest to respond - responses being agreement, counterstatement, objection, additional proof, or question. Observers can make comments (and suggest references) which the map builders may consider but they may not directly change the map. I believe in collaboration but not chaos.
Orthodox Bishop Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."; Orthodox proverb: "We know where the Church is, we do not know where it is not."
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It's a great idea, I'm sorry I can't volunteer but I really like it!
גַּם־חֹשֶׁךְ֮ לֹֽא־יַחְשִׁ֪יךְ מִ֫מֶּ֥ךָ וְ֭לַיְלָה כַּיּ֣וֹם יָאִ֑יר כַּ֝חֲשֵׁיכָ֗ה כָּאוֹרָֽה
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I like the idea as well but I am not the one who can help.
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MJ. Smith said:
If the proof of concept works out, I would then like to work through the Lexham Survey of Theology systematically and build a supplement to it.
If proof of concept works out, an ideal partner may be an editor of the Lexham Survey of Theology. Discussion about argument mapping could include Personal Book or alternative using shared documents: Notebook, Canvas. Shared documents has a Master that can be duplicated and modified by individual(s) without changing the Master document.
MJ. Smith said:Observers can make comments (and suggest references) which the map builders may consider but they may not directly change the map. I believe in collaboration but not chaos.
Pilot idea is starting Faithlife group for Argument Mapping. Collaborative interaction may show who would be an appropriate partner for a particular argument map.
Challenge for Argument Mapping is succinctly expressing variety of views. Zondervan Counterpoint Series comes to mind where individual books have interaction of two to five views by variety of people.
Chapter 1 of Judaism through the Eyes of Jesus includes:
Modern Jewish humorists have oft repeated that when you have two Jews you get three opinions.
Randy Weiss, Judaism through the Eyes of Jesus: A View of Ancient Jewish Sects from the New Testament Era (Randy Weiss, 2014).
MJ. Smith said:As I am much more a liturgist than a theologian, I suspect that I will be the one who is slowest to respond - responses being agreement, counterstatement, objection, additional proof, or question.
In a sense, every human is a theologian, who chooses what to do based on personal faith belief. My personal description is Lover of Holy God, who is an ongoing work in progress to Be Holy as God is Holy.
Another response could be another argument branch.
Related to sola scriptura is the Jewish principle of stringing pearls.
Keep Smiling [:)]
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Related to sola scriptura is the Jewish principle of stringing pearls.
Can you explain at bit further? Excluding the non-Rabbinic Karaites, to the best of my knowledge Judaism recognizes both oral and written Torah ... and have an interesting relationship with the Talmud et.al. re: authoritative writings. By "interesting" I mean I personally have contradictory bits of information and many questions.
Orthodox Bishop Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."; Orthodox proverb: "We know where the Church is, we do not know where it is not."
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MJ. Smith said:
Related to sola scriptura is the Jewish principle of stringing pearls.
Can you explain at bit further? Excluding the non-Rabbinic Karaites, to the best of my knowledge Judaism recognizes both oral and written Torah ... and have an interesting relationship with the Talmud et.al. re: authoritative writings. By "interesting" I mean I personally have contradictory bits of information and many questions.
Thread => Sitting at the Feet of Rabbi Jesus -- You have the audio book; please get the e-book. (PLEASE VOTE) includes link => https://thegospelmatters.wordpress.com/2010/11/02/stringing-pearls/
Screen shot from chapter 3 of Sitting at the Feet of Rabbi Jesus: How the Jewishness of Jesus Can Transform Your Faith
Keep Smiling [:)]
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What I was trying to ask was the relationship of "sola scriptura" to "stringing pearls." I don't see it in the excerpt you provided although I did notice one big factual error which I found amusing. The book from which you took it does look interesting.
Orthodox Bishop Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."; Orthodox proverb: "We know where the Church is, we do not know where it is not."
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I think the connection may be the Midrashic notion of juxtaposing multiple sola scriptura passages (pearls) to establish probability.
Example (Complements of TheGospelMatter.Wordrpress.com):
In Mark 1:11, God the Father speaks the well known words “You are my Son, whom I love; with you I am well pleased.”
- “You are my Son” is from Psalm 2:7 – “He said t me, ‘You are my son, today I have become your father”
- “whom I love” is from Gen. 22:2 when God commanded Abraham to take his only son, whom he loved, and offer him as a sacrifice.
- “with you I am well pleased” is from Isaiah 42:1 which everyone believed was a Messianic Prophecy, meaning a statement from God that would have future fulfillment in the Messiah (Jesus).
God, by stringing pearls together from the three major sections of Scripture – Torah, prophets, writings – was declaring that THIS man, Jesus, was the Christ – the long awaited Messiah. Not only that, he hinted at the sacrifice Jesus would become by referencing the story from Gen. 22. And not only that, but by using Isaiah 42:1 he decisively told the people that Jesus is the divine and holy one who they were waiting for. As the authors say, “By quoting all three (sections of the Old Testament), he is proclaiming that the entire Scriptures point to Jesus as their fulfillment” (p. 45).
https://thegospelmatters.wordpress.com/2010/11/02/stringing-pearls/
This may be of further interest:
https://www.kolhamevaser.com/2017/11/midrash-and-intertextuality-stringing-like-beads-the-words-of-torah/0 -
Thanks GaoLu for sharing both links. They sure stirred up the old brain cells this morning. I hope MJ's group will provide many more such gems to induce new ideas and thought processes.
And he will turn the hearts of fathers to their children and the hearts of children to their fathers (Mal 4:6a)
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GaoLu said:
I think the connection may be the Midrashic notion of juxtaposing multiple sola scriptura passages (pearls) to establish probability.
Thanks - it is looking at what I would consider midrashic/intertextual interpretation and use of scripture in a different way. It would never occur to me to attach "sola scriptura" to that practice. Unity or coherence of scripture would be the principle that came to my mind.
Orthodox Bishop Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."; Orthodox proverb: "We know where the Church is, we do not know where it is not."
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I have found no takers ... so I am going to start by playing both sides -- not an ideal situation -- and hope observers keep me honest and get someone interested in truly representing the other side.
Orthodox Bishop Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."; Orthodox proverb: "We know where the Church is, we do not know where it is not."
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MJ. Smith said:
I have found no takers ... so I am going to start by playing both sides -- not an ideal situation -- a hope observers keep me honest and get someone interested in truly representing the other side.
I'm sorry MJ. I want to be helpful to you on this project, but this is not my area of expertise. My area would be cultural, historical, and literary context. Even as far as theology goes, your first focus is something that I know very little about as far as other opinions. I will gladly jump in if you get to something I know more about.
Disclaimer: I hate using messaging, texting, and email for real communication. If anything that I type to you seems like anything other than humble and respectful, then I have not done a good job typing my thoughts.
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Similar to what Joseph said, this is an area I don't know much about or study. Otherwise, and for other future projects, I could jump in.
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As usual my being a top down thinker shoots me in the foot [8-|] The pattern as I see it is something like:
- Accept the premise that there is a standard (rule of faith) that judges doctrines and practice as orthodox/orthodpraxy or not
- for solo scriptura, sola scriptura, Anglican, Methodist, Catholic/Eastern Orthodox etc. define their rule of faith i.e. data that is accepted as evidence
- Define scripture which probably requires first defining revelation
- Evidence for sola scripture from the Bible
- Define/ prove the proposed characteristics of scripture assumed by sola scriptura:
- the sufficiency of scripture
- the authority of scripture
- the clarity of scripture
- the interpretiveness of scripture
Orthodox Bishop Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."; Orthodox proverb: "We know where the Church is, we do not know where it is not."
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MJ. Smith said:
Define scripture which probably requires first defining revelation
Will the process of defining scripture also define the canon?
And he will turn the hearts of fathers to their children and the hearts of children to their fathers (Mal 4:6a)
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MJ. Smith said:
As usual my being a top down thinker shoots me in the foot
I can see that logical/scholarly discipline demands your selected path. But from a lazy point of view (me), bottoms up is so much easier. Religions and their derivatives always work off the past. It's easiest as an example, to map out 'Mormonism' (apologies to Ben), starting with 1830s New Testament debates (folks back then were far more text-driven). Even this morning Fredriksen was observing Paul as the ultimate Judahizer (sp; insisting on YHWH and basic Yhwh-demanded behaviors).
Also, bottoms up, allows statistical patterns that belie more modern rationalizations.
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Orthodox Bishop Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."; Orthodox proverb: "We know where the Church is, we do not know where it is not."
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DMB said:
But from a lazy point of view (me), bottoms up is so much easier.
Unfortunately, bottoms up is nearly impossible for me. The best debugging I've ever done was with a colleague who was very much a bottom up thinker. The two of us together were incredible fast at identifying the erroneous code.
DMB said:Also, bottoms up, allows statistical patterns that belie more modern rationalizations.
Hey, I get there even if it is via the slow boat to ...
Orthodox Bishop Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."; Orthodox proverb: "We know where the Church is, we do not know where it is not."
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John Goodman said:
It's a great idea, I'm sorry I can't volunteer but I really like it!
My thoughts EXACTLY!
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