QUESTION - absolutely no discussion - references only

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MJ. Smith | Forum Activity | Posted: Fri, Mar 4 2022 12:53 AM

In building an argument map, I frequently run into this argument in some form:

David T. King:
Protestants have always accepted apostolic teaching that was oral in nature and which preceded its inscripturation. But apostolic revelation which God desired to preserve has been inscripturated in its entirety. Scripture never designates "oral tradition" as a continuing source of revelation. Scripture reserves this norm for itself alone.

I have spent several weeks reading many resources with this argument but I have not been able to find any that provide a Biblical reference for:

  • "apostolic revelation which God desired to preserve has been inscripturated in its entirety"
  • "Scripture reserves this norm (continuing source of revelation) for itself alone"
  • the implied end point of the validity of using oral apostolic revelation.

bolding is mine as the primary element in the assertion that needs a Biblical reference. Literally all I want is references - no discussion of how they fit the bill, no discussion of whether or not the interpretation is correct. In my argument map I want to show the best arguments of each side.

The Topic Guide and the Theological Guide did not provide the answer nor did any obvious search. A technique to find these references would be even more valuable than the actual references.

Orthodox Bishop Hilarion Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."

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Joseph Turner | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Mar 4 2022 4:16 AM

Would it be possible for you to list the resources that hold that argument that you've already consulted?  That might help to lead me to another resource. 

Or, do you have any resources which make the continuing revelation argument which site good opposition sources that you could then track down?

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Gregory Lawhorn | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Mar 4 2022 5:19 AM

Answers to Catholic Claims (James R. White) chapter 4, "The Authority, Consistency, and Sufficiency of the Scriptures"

and

Scripture Alone (James R. White) the entire book, and especially chapter 9, "Tradition, the Church, and the Development of Doctrine"

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Morgan | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Mar 4 2022 5:48 AM

For purely bible references there are 1 Cor 4:6, and 2 Tim 3:16 which specifically talk about Scripture and what is written. As for the closing of the canon I have always been pointed to Jude 3. Hopefully some commentary articles can provide other references?

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GaoLu | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Mar 4 2022 6:39 AM

MJ. Smith:
A technique to find these references would be even more valuable than the actual references.

You imply that you are asking a question. What is the question?

Are you asking for a list of references only?

Are you asking for a way to find such references?

Are you asking for argument-tags of references? 

Are you asking for implementation of argument tags by reference?

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MJ. Smith | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Mar 4 2022 11:45 AM

Joseph Turner:
make the continuing revelation argument which site good opposition sources that you could then track down?

I hadn't thought of attacking it from that direction - I was leaving continuing revelation primarily to a separate category outside solo scriptura. I'll see where that gets me.

Joseph Turner:
Would it be possible for you to list the resources that hold that argument that you've already consulted

I've consulted more than 50 books ... and found this line of argument (although not always in these words) frequently - usually associated with 2 Tim 3:16-17. I have several lines of argument against this argument ... but I've found no defense of the argument ... it is merely asserted which is why I finally broke down and tried "crowd sourcing" the defense of the argument. For the argument map my concern is to give each set of beliefs a fair shake by presenting the best possible argument ... and noting flaws/weaknesses in reasoning. I've got 10 dead tree format books on my desk plus these Logos resources that I've used for some tidbit of information on solo/sola scripture:


Sola-solo-prima Bibliography

Anderson, Ray Sherman. The Shape of Practical Theology: Empowering Ministry with Theological Praxis. Downers Grove, IL: InterVarsity Press, 2001.


Armstrong, Dave. 100 Biblical Arguments against Sola Scriptura. San Diego, CA: Catholic Answers Press, 2012.


Armstrong, Dave. Bible Conversations: Catholic-Protestant Dialogues on the Bible, Tradition, and Salvation. Dave Armstrong, 2007.


Bacote, Vincent, Laura C. Miguélez, and Dennis L. Okholm. Evangelicals & Scripture: Tradition, Authority, and Hermeneutics. Downers Grove, IL: InterVarsity Press, 2004.


Bauckham, Richard, and Benjamin Drewery, eds. Scripture, Tradition, and Reason: A Study in the Criteria of Christian Doctrine : Essays in Honour of Richard P.C. Hanson. Edinburgh: T&T Clark, 1998.


Benedict XVI. God’s Word: Scripture—Tradition—Office. Edited by Peter Hünermann and Thomas Söding. Translated by Henry Taylor. San Francisco: Ignatius Press, 2008.


Boosalis, Harry. Holy Tradition: Ecclesial Experience of Life in Christ. South Canaan, PA; Waymart, PA: St. Tikhon’s Monastery Press, 2013.


Carter, Craig A. Interpreting Scripture with the Great Tradition: Recovering the Genius of Premodern Exegesis. Grand Rapids, MI: Baker Academic: A division of Baker Publishing Group, 2018.


Castelo, Daniel, and Robert W. Wall. The Marks of Scripture: Rethinking the Nature of the Bible. Grand Rapids, MI: Baker Academic: A Division of Baker Publishing Group, 2019.


Congar, Yves. The Meaning of Tradition. Translated by A. N. Woodrow. San Francisco: Ignatius Press, 2004.


Frame, John M. The Doctrine of the Word of God. A Theology of Lordship. Phillipsburg, NJ: P&R Publishing, 2010.


Hahn, Scott. Spirit & Life: Essays on Interpreting the Bible in Ordinary Time. Steubenville, OH: Emmaus Road Publishing, 2009.


Humphrey, Edith M. Scripture and Tradition: What the Bible Really Says. Edited by Craig A. Evans and Lee Martin McDonald. Acadia Studies in Bible and Theology. Grand Rapids, MI: Baker Academic, 2013.


Jenks, Gregory C., and Jay Harold Ellens. The Once and Future Bible: An Introduction to the Bible for Religious Progressives. Eugene, Oregon: Wipf and Stock, 2011.


Kistler, Don, ed. Sola Scriptura: The Protestant Position on the Bible. Lake Mary, FL: Reformation Trust Publishing, 2009.


Lathrop, Gordon W. The Four Gospels on Sunday: The New Testament and the Reform of Christian Worship. Minneapolis, MN: Fortress Press, 2012.


Lee, Gregory W. Today When You Hear His Voice: Scripture, the Covenants, and the People of God. Grand Rapids, MI: William B. Eerdmans Publishing Company, 2016.


Liderbach, Daniel. Christ in the Early Christian Hymns. New York; Mahwah, NJ: Paulist Press, 1998.


MacArthur, John, ed. The Inerrant Word: Biblical, Historical, Theological, and Pastoral Perspectives. Wheaton, IL: Crossway, 2016.


Madrid, Patrick. Scripture and Tradition in the Church: Yves Congar, O.P.’s Theology of Revelation and Critique of the Protestant Principle of Sola Scriptura. Melbourne, Victoria: Freedom Publishing Company Pty Ltd, 2014.


Mathison, Keith A. The Shape of Sola Scriptura. Moscow, ID: Canon Press, 2001.


McCarthy, James G. The Gospel according to Rome. Eugene, OR: Harvest House Publishers, 1995.


McFarlane, Graham. A Model for Evangelical Theology: Integrating Scripture, Tradition, Reason, Experience, and Community. Grand Rapids, MI: Baker Academic, 2020.


Packer, J. I. Engaging the Written Word of God. Peabody, MA: Hendrickson Publishers; Paternoster: Thinking Faith, 1999.


Packer, J. I. “Fundamentalism” and the Word of God: Some Evangelical Principles. Grand Rapids, MI: William B. Eerdmans Publishing Company, 1958.


Peckham, John C. Canonical Theology: The Biblical Canon, Sola Scriptura, and Theological Method. Grand Rapids, MI: William B. Eerdmans Publishing Company, 2016.


Reasoner, Mark. Five Models of Scripture. Grand Rapids, MI: William B. Eerdmans Publishing Company, 2021.


Shea, Mark P. By What Authority?: An Evangelical Discovers Catholic Tradition. Revised and Expanded Edition. San Francisco: Ignatius Press, 2013.


Sproul, R. C. Can I Trust the Bible?. Vol. 2. The Crucial Questions Series. Orlando, FL: Reformation Trust: A Division of Ligonier Ministries, 2017.


Swain, Scott R. Trinity, Revelation, and Reading: A Theological Introduction to the Bible and Its Interpretation. London; New York: T&T Clark, 2011.


Thompson, Mark D. A Sure Ground on Which to Stand: The Relation of Authority and Interpretive Method in Luther’s Approach to Scripture. Studies in Christian History and Thought. Eugene, OR: Wipf & Stock Publishers, 2006.


Vanhoozer, Kevin J. The Drama of Doctrine: A Canonical-Linguistic Approach to Christian Theology. First edition. Louisville, KY: Westminster John Knox Press, 2005.


Warfield, Benjamin B. The Works of Benjamin B. Warfield: Revelation and Inspiration. Vol. 1. Bellingham, WA: Logos Bible Software, 2008.


White, James R. Scripture Alone. Minneapolis, MN: Bethany House, 2004.


White, James R. The Roman Catholic Controversy. Minneapolis, MN: Bethany House Publishers, 1996.


Whiteford, John. Sola Scriptura: An Orthodox Analysis of the Cornerstone of Reformation Theology. Chesterton, IN: Ancient Faith Publishing, 1996.


Williams, D. H. Evangelicals and Tradition: The Formative Influence of the Early Church. Evangelical Ressourcement. Grand Rapids, MI: Baker Academic, 2005.


Williams, D. H., ed. Tradition, Scripture, and Interpretation: A Sourcebook of the Ancient Church. Evangelical Ressourcement. Grand Rapids, MI: Baker Academic, 2006.


Wright, N. T. Scripture and the Authority of God. London: Society for Promoting Christian Knowledge, 2005.


Tabletalk Magazine, August 2001: Sola Scriptura. Lake Mary, FL: Ligonier Ministries, 2001.


Credo: Sola Scriptura (December). Credo Magazine, 2016.


Exported from Verbum, 11:43 AM March 4, 2022.

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MJ. Smith | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Mar 4 2022 12:01 PM

Thanks Morgan. These references are already in my sights and the commentaries upon them (esp. 2 Tim 3:16) are what raised the questions - independent of the truth of the conclusion, the argument uses premises/propositions for which it has not provided Biblical references. Because it is solo/sola scripture, I assume that there is Biblical support -- I simply haven't found it. Most of the discussions seem to focus on "sufficiency" which is interesting but not the issue separating solo-sola-prima-scriptura, scripture+tradition, scripture+tradition+experience, holistic, human reason+experience ...Example theologies roughly covered by this list are Anabaptist/Restorationist, Lutheran/Calvinist, Anglican, Catholic, pietist/Methodists, Orthodox, progressive/perennial philosophy.

Orthodox Bishop Hilarion Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."

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MJ. Smith | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Mar 4 2022 12:10 PM

GaoLu:
What is the question?

Sorry if I wasn't sufficiently clear. I want scripture references that support the three premises used in the argument without support.

MJ. Smith:

  • "apostolic revelation which God desired to preserve has been inscripturated in its entirety"
  • "Scripture reserves this norm (continuing source of revelation) for itself alone"
  • the implied end point of the validity of using oral apostolic revelation.

Why am I only interested in Biblical references? because at this point, I am working on solo scriptura and sola scriptura ... so only Biblical evidence is acceptable.

Orthodox Bishop Hilarion Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."

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MJ. Smith | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Mar 4 2022 3:02 PM

Gregory Lawhorn:
Answers to Catholic Claims (James R. White) chapter 4, "The Authority, Consistency, and Sufficiency of the Scriptures"

I don't have this.

Gregory Lawhorn:
Scripture Alone (James R. White) the entire book, and especially chapter 9, "Tradition, the Church, and the Development of Doctrine"

Getting close but its evidence is from Church Fathers which solo/sola scripture deny as a ground for the rule of faith. Yes, I'm aware of the allowance for tradition (not Tradition) in sola but not solo. I may end up using a Church Fathers' argument -- a label it a logical foul.

Orthodox Bishop Hilarion Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."

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Frank Sauer | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Mar 4 2022 6:00 PM

MJ. Smith:

Gregory Lawhorn:
Answers to Catholic Claims (James R. White) chapter 4, "The Authority, Consistency, and Sufficiency of the Scriptures"

I don't have this.

Gregory Lawhorn:
Scripture Alone (James R. White) the entire book, and especially chapter 9, "Tradition, the Church, and the Development of Doctrine"

Getting close but its evidence is from Church Fathers which solo/sola scripture deny as a ground for the rule of faith. Yes, I'm aware of the allowance for tradition (not Tradition) in sola but not solo. I may end up using a Church Fathers' argument -- a label it a logical foul.

Here's a link to Dr White's Monergism Page that contains some of the information that would be found in these works:

https://www.monergism.com/search?keywords=james%20white&format=All&f%5B0%5D=topic%3A30874

Here's a link to a search of Alpha Omega Ministries for Sola Scriptura:

https://www.aomin.org/aoblog/?post_type%5B%5D=&s=sola+scriptura

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MJ. Smith | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Mar 4 2022 6:21 PM

Frank Sauer:
https://www.monergism.com/search?keywords=james%20white&format=All&f%5B0%5D=topic%3A30874

What I find here consistently treats "sufficient" as "only" which is another form of the assertions/propositions I want to find evidence for; "sufficiency" only requires the bare minimum and is, therefore, a very low bar -- a far cry from the "only" qualifier that I'm trying to document. I have found nothing in the traditional Christian stances that denies sufficiency. It is the "only" which is disputed and therefore of interest to me at this time.

Frank Sauer:
https://www.aomin.org/aoblog/?post_type%5B%5D=&s=sola+scriptura

I check this out later - I prefer reading to watching. Thanks for the hints ... they may lead somewhere.

Orthodox Bishop Hilarion Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."

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SineNomine | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Mar 5 2022 11:25 AM

MJ. Smith:

I have not been able to find any that provide a Biblical reference for:

  • "apostolic revelation which God desired to preserve has been inscripturated in its entirety"
  • "Scripture reserves this norm (continuing source of revelation) for itself alone"
  • the implied end point of the validity of using oral apostolic revelation.

bolding is mine as the primary element in the assertion that needs a Biblical reference. Literally all I want is references - no discussion of how they fit the bill, no discussion of whether or not the interpretation is correct.

MJ. Smith:
A technique to find these references would be even more valuable than the actual references.

One technique might be to look at what relevant theologians see (and rule out) as potential other sources of revelation. For example, if someone holds that the only possible sources of revelation are scripture and X, then all that person needs is Bible verses to use to argue against the Christian use of X. S or X, not X, therefore S. That line of attack wouldn't get you to the sufficiency of the scriptures, but it would look after "only".

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MJ. Smith | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Mar 5 2022 1:59 PM

SineNomine:
One technique might be to look at what relevant theologians see (and rule out) as potential other sources of revelation. For example, if someone holds that the only possible sources of revelation are scripture and X, then all that person needs is Bible verses to use to argue against the Christian use of X. S or X, not X, therefore S. That line of attack wouldn't get you to the sufficiency of the scriptures, but it would look after "only".

I'll give this a try ...

Orthodox Bishop Hilarion Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."

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David Thomas | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Mar 5 2022 2:18 PM

MJ. Smith:
Literally all I want is references

I humbly suggest John 21:24-25. It requires deductive reasoning, but why does John write these things (v.24) but omit other things (v.25)?

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MJ. Smith | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Mar 5 2022 2:20 PM

David Thomas:
I humbly suggest John 21:24-25. It requires deductive reasoning, but why does John write these things (v.24) but omit other things (v.25)?

This is definitely a useful line of defense ...

Orthodox Bishop Hilarion Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."

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Jan Krohn | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Mar 5 2022 2:47 PM

Geisler, Norman L., and William E. Nix. 1986. A General Introduction to the Bible. Rev. and expanded. Chicago: Moody Press.

P 127-130; protestant response to Roman Catholic and Eastern Orthodox tradition.

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MJ. Smith | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Mar 5 2022 4:02 PM

Jan Krohn:

Geisler, Norman L., and William E. Nix. 1986. A General Introduction to the Bible. Rev. and expanded. Chicago: Moody Press.

P 127-130; protestant response to Roman Catholic and Eastern Orthodox tradition.

Worth reading for its stress on change/adaptability, but it will fit further into the argument map - as objections to the scripture+tradition view.

Orthodox Bishop Hilarion Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."

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xnman | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Mar 5 2022 7:02 PM

MJ. Smith:

I've consulted more than 50 books ... and found this line of argument (although not always in these words) frequently - usually associated with 2 Tim 3:16-17. I have several lines of argument against this argument ... but I've found no defense of the argument ...

I may be off track..... if I am please forgive me and let me know. But... The argument of 2 Tim 3:16-17 "I believe" is valid...

2 Tim 3:16-17 is an assertion that the word of God, the Bible, is from the voice of God Himself. God does not have to justify His words... and most of the Bible cannot be "justified" unless the assertion God makes is understood.

To go further with this thought.... consider Joh 1:1-3 and vs 10 in relation to Heb 1:1-2. Jesus is "the Word" because He was given 3 directives...

1. To come be a sacrifice for the sins of the world Joh 1:29.

2. To bring God's word down to man Heb 1:1-2.

3. To start the church Mat 16:18.

So the word that came from the voice or mind of God the Father... was brought down to man by Jesus Christ.... but the Word... that Jesus brought down actually came from God.

Jesus further verifies this in Joh 4:34... He didn't come to do His will but the will of the Father....

Now... Do the Scriptures, the Bible, guide man into all (religious) truth even today?  And do the Scriptures, the Bible, equip man for every good work today?  

I put forth first the argument from God... 2Pe 1:20... no prophecy of Scripture... came from man. It only came to man from God through Jesus and was preserved by the Holy Spirit....

Then Galatians 1:8-10... ask this question about that passage.... would the apostles by condemned if they taught a different gospel?    God never allowed men, apostles or angels from heaven to change His words.

In 1Cor 4:6 The apostle Paul makes an argument to not go beyond what is written. Which gives proof to 2 Tim 3:16-17....

Then John chimes in with 2 Joh 9-11 and states blatantly... if one transgresses and does not abide in the doctrine of Christ... he does not have God. It is God's word which came from God and God only.

Now having said all this.....  I would be interested in your argument against this line of reasoning.... Geeked

And I am not trying to discuss all this but trying to give credence to the argument of 2 Tim 3:16-17.

xn = Christan  man=man -- Acts 11:26 "....and the disciples were first called Christians in Antioch".

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MJ. Smith | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Mar 5 2022 8:57 PM

xnman:
  I would be interested in your argument against this line of reasoning...

My interest at this point is strictly:

MJ. Smith:

I have not been able to find any that provide a Biblical reference for:

  • "apostolic revelation which God desired to preserve has been inscripturated in its entirety"
  • "Scripture reserves this norm (continuing source of revelation) for itself alone"
  • the implied end point of the validity of using oral apostolic revelation.

bolding is mine as the primary element in the assertion that needs a Biblical reference. Literally all I want is references - no discussion of how they fit the bill, no discussion of whether or not the interpretation is correct.

Why? Because these are assertions/propositions that are made (multiple times) in arguments that require justification in the argument. I started with a minimum number of premises that could be assumed regardless of which side of any particular debate a particular person wanted to hold. These are not among those assertions/propositions. Yes, my starting point might be unacceptable to some progressives/perennial philosophy sorts but they would understand the need for them in context. I'm suspecting that I will label these a logical foul -- which says nothing about whether they are true or false, only that they were added to the argument without support.

Orthodox Bishop Hilarion Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."

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xnman | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Mar 6 2022 3:21 AM

MJ. Smith:

Why? Because these are assertions/propositions that are made (multiple times) in arguments that require justification in the argument. I started with a minimum number of premises that could be assumed regardless of which side of any particular debate a particular person wanted to hold. These are not among those assertions/propositions. Yes, my starting point might be unacceptable to some progressives/perennial philosophy sorts but they would understand the need for them in context. I'm suspecting that I will label these a logical foul -- which says nothing about whether they are true or false, only that they were added to the argument without support.

My apologies.... I'm a thinking I misunderstood...  Exit stage right ----->>...

xn = Christan  man=man -- Acts 11:26 "....and the disciples were first called Christians in Antioch".

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