Can you help us improve search?

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MJ. Smith | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Mar 11 2022 2:30 PM

It occurs to me, Mark, that a more explicit "search within results" which puts parens around the current search argument and an AND before the new search argument would help people build complex arguments and refine searches/

Orthodox Bishop Hilarion Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."

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Andrew Batishko | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Mar 11 2022 2:43 PM

Fabian:
I've talked the whole time about the Inline search, and this is not option there.

Yes, I noticed that. The setting in the search panel's menu is a global setting. Changing it there will affect searches in the inline search.

And yes, before it gets mentioned, we recognize how poor an experience that is.

Fabian:
there should only come up whats in the actual resource is. Not from another language

Please post a screenshot of a suggestion being listed for a term that is not found in the resource. I'm not aware of a situation where that happens.

Andrew Batishko | Faithlife software developer

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Fabian | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Mar 11 2022 2:49 PM

Andrew Batishko:

Please post a screenshot of a suggestion being listed for a term that is not found in the resource. I'm not aware of a situation where that happens.

Is not the image from NB.Mick, with the "Barren" and "Barriere" as he was in the Inline Search of the ESV this case? 

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Mark Barnes (Faithlife) | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Mar 11 2022 2:58 PM

MJ. Smith:

It occurs to me, Mark, that a more explicit "search within results" which puts parens around the current search argument and an AND before the new search argument would help people build complex arguments and refine searches/

It could. Thank you.

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Andrew Batishko | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Mar 11 2022 3:22 PM

Fabian:
Is not the image from NB.Mick, with the "Barren" and "Barriere" as he was in the Inline Search of the ESV this case? 

I assume you are talking about this post.

I attempted to explain this earlier, but I might not have been clear enough.

If you select those suggestions, they will not search for that text in the resource. Instead, they will search for text that has been tagged with those senses ("Barren" and "Barriere"). It is entirely appropriate that these terms show up in German, since the German translation is the correct name for those senses. You can find more details about those senses using the Bible Sense Lexicon tool.

NB.Mick appears to have been confused about this as well.

Andrew Batishko | Faithlife software developer

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Mark | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Mar 12 2022 6:51 AM

Bill:

Thanks for asking Mark.

Option One- I think if we must use complex syntax it should be easier to enter. For me, and I assume for many, the syntax is not understandable, clear or easy to remember, but it is powerful. Can option number two provide that same power?

Option Two- Obviously I would prefer not to have to use complex syntax, However, my concern with option two, if I understand it correctly, is that we may lose the power and flexibility to build our own searches, and be limited to using pre designed canned searches that may not meet our need. Even if we were left with the option of building searches with complex syntax in this option, it would not resolve the issues in option one I pointed out. 

Don't know if this makes sense, or is even feasible, but if the program could determine the type of search we are attempting by the words or terms we type, and either enter the proper syntax, or offer a drop down list of workable options, that would help the user by not having to remember which syntax or terms to use or where to place it. Through use, I think it  would also become a good training tool for the user.

Conclusion; Keep the power of complex searches, but make the syntax easier to understand, use, and enter, or make the syntax it self less complicated.Big Smile 

Thank you, I hope this is somewhat helpful.

I think Bill has some good suggestions here.

Another option to possibly consider is to make searches similar to Passage Guide.  Have a Search Guide with a section for general search, and sections for more complex searches.  Might not be feasable, but I like to brainstorm :)

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Fabian | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Mar 12 2022 9:01 AM

Andrew Batishko:

Fabian:
Is not the image from NB.Mick, with the "Barren" and "Barriere" as he was in the Inline Search of the ESV this case? 

I assume you are talking about this post.

I attempted to explain this earlier, but I might not have been clear enough.

If you select those suggestions, they will not search for that text in the resource. Instead, they will search for text that has been tagged with those senses ("Barren" and "Barriere"). It is entirely appropriate that these terms show up in German, since the German translation is the correct name for those senses. You can find more details about those senses using the Bible Sense Lexicon tool.

NB.Mick appears to have been confused about this as well.

Yes, that was I referring. 

Thanks for the explanation.

In German it is called "Alle Wortformen berücksichtigen", that doesn't say the actual resource is NOT searched anymore, at least in the same way as it  is if unchecked. 

In my opinion it make less sense to have the "Alle Wortformen berücksichtigen" then as standard in the INLINE search. I think this should be as a second step, as I tried to say it earlier. 

Is there a shortcut to open a "Search panel"?

Next thing

If I open the Calwer Bibellexikon and I choose "Verfasser" means "author" then why the suggestions don't work? And if this work is not prepared for this, then why I can mark to search for "Verfasser". For example "Roos" is one. So I check the box for Verfasser and type "r". Heaven help! There are many words that come up but not "Roos". And then I would like to search in the texts this author wrote. I should then have as second command or search field. Either I or Logos is stupid.

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John Connell | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Mar 12 2022 9:02 AM

It seems that there are a number of ways to initiate searches including Search Panel, Bible Browser, Factbook, Context Menu, Inline Search and so on.

Is there a compehensive Wiki that lists all search entry points and discusses the advantages of using one over another? I have to assume that there are nuanced differences in what each entry tool might provide in terms of ease of use or quality of search results but am unsophisticated enough to recognize what they might be.

-john

And he will turn the hearts of fathers to their children and the hearts of children to their fathers (Mal 4:6a)

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Mark | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Mar 12 2022 3:33 PM

John Connell:
Is there a compehensive Wiki that lists all search entry points and discusses the advantages of using one over another?

You can see one here for detailed searches

Also here to search for theological topics

And here for an introduction to searches

And here to learn how to use search operators

And here for search help

And here for an example of a search analysis

And here for search fields you can use

And here for a video of search operators

And finally here for how to use search templates to build a search

I am not sure if Faithlife has indicated how many hours of study one must put in to understand it all.

One thing that would be helpful is for the wiki or the Logos search help page to be updated so I don't need to keep all these links in my browser favorites. There's got to be a simpler way to enjoy the powerful benefits of the Logos search engine.

Mark, I am glad they have put you on this task. I know there are complications beyond what the average user is able to understand.  Perhaps you are right to focus on the automatic search.  Perhaps as well, a help file can be easily accessible to make all these search options easy to understand so we can actually do searches using these various operators.

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SineNomine | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Mar 12 2022 4:00 PM

I want all ways of initiating and carrying out all kinds of searches in all Faithlife apps to finally be fully documented, including all settings and search syntax, within a single free Help resource within Logos/Verbum. And then I want that Logos Research Edition resource to be pro-actively kept consistently up to date by Faithlife.

You want to make search easier? Do that.

"God commands you to pray, but He forbids you to worry." - The Curé d'Ars.

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Floyd Johnson | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Mar 12 2022 4:36 PM

I would really like search to be more like Google search, where it suggest alternative sesrches. Right now it is more like Amazon - it only searches exactly what you type; misspell something and it has no idea what I want to find.

Blessings,
Floyd

Pastor-Patrick.blogspot.com

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MJ. Smith | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Mar 12 2022 4:45 PM

I need to change my name to MJ Coldwater -- I have documented for my own purposes the settings, tags, labels, attributes, locations for starting ... of all the searches except syntax down to the level of the various morphology codes. It is not the big help you think it would be as recent threads in the forums illustrate:

What I found actually worked to teach me to build searches was something I am loath to do because it is not my normal learning style. I made cards in Anki (because Logos is such a Luddite when it comes to "vocabulary cards") for the various key terms, values, labels, attributes, datatypes ... to learn the vocabulary. Mouse over popups is no substitute to actually knowing what the data in front of you means. When you actually understand what the tags mean, what the difference is between "subject" and "agent", then you can start figuring out in you mind what you need to do; once you know what you need to do most of the time you can do it -- once in a while you get stuck and have to ask. The portion of the search that still gives me trouble is preaching themes and theological topics -- they are based on a vocabulary so different than my own, it often turns humorous when I try to find a basic concept ... Did you know Christmas is about a birth rather than an incarnation? Geeked

As you can tell, my opinion has not gathered much steam LOGOS vocabulary cards | Faithlife

Orthodox Bishop Hilarion Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."

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Floyd Johnson | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Mar 12 2022 5:12 PM

MJ. Smith:
What I found actually worked to teach me to build searches was something I am loath to do because it is not my normal learning style. I made cards in Anki (because Logos is such a Luddite when it comes to "vocabulary cards") for the various key terms, values, labels, attributes, datatypes ... to learn the vocabulary.

MJ: Do you make your ANKI deck available?

Blessings,
Floyd

Pastor-Patrick.blogspot.com

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MJ. Smith | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Mar 12 2022 5:20 PM

Floyd Johnson:
MJ: Do you make your ANKI deck available?

Hmm ... I don't remember ... I'll check later tonight.

Orthodox Bishop Hilarion Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."

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xnman | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Mar 12 2022 5:31 PM

I don't use the AutoCompleter much if any at all.....Maybe that's my problem with Search. I do notice what seems like a lot of questions in the forums about how to search for what they are looking for.

I have tried to learn about the search and have learned some .... but I find it confusing and trying.

When I do use it.... seems I spend an inordinate amount of time just trying to find what I'm looking for.

Personally.... it's just too complicated.

xn = Christan  man=man -- Acts 11:26 "....and the disciples were first called Christians in Antioch".

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SineNomine | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Mar 12 2022 7:01 PM

MJ. Smith:

I need to change my name to MJ Coldwater -- I have documented for my own purposes the settings, tags, labels, attributes, locations for starting ... of all the searches except syntax down to the level of the various morphology codes. It is not the big help you think it would be as recent threads in the forums illustrate:

To my mind, proper documentation involves more than comprehensive lists of items--every item also needs to be clearly and thoroughly explained. Such explanations would disambiguate ambiguous tags (etc.) and indicate potentially helpful usage via representative examples. Anything less would not constitute proper documentation as far as I am concerned.

"God commands you to pray, but He forbids you to worry." - The Curé d'Ars.

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Dave Hooton | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Mar 12 2022 11:53 PM

xnman:
I don't use the AutoCompleter much if any at all.....Maybe that's my problem with Search.

I concentrated on a search for Dumah, which is used as a place name in my PB. The Inline search (below) only gave datatype suggestions which was unhelpful for a resource with no Faithlife tagging, and revealed that Dumah was also a person i.e. <Person Dumah (descendant of Ishmael)>.

Image

A Basic Search gave further datatype suggestions e.g.<Topic Dumah (Person)>, <Topic Dumah (of Judah)>, <Topic Dumah (of Seir)> (five in all). But it is inconsistent and originally gave a list of names as I typed. This is why I have learned to ignore the AutoCompleter except when I know it is relevant, or begin to type <place dumah.

I have strongly criticised the use of the Topic datatype in the past as it is a legacy term with results in only a few resources. So why does Faithlife continue to use and confuse with its use?

Another nic pick is use of the hidden "Match equivalent references" which suddenly gives life to a dead search for <Topic Dumah (Person)> (in All Resources) by including <Person Dumah (descendant of Ishmael)>.

Dave
===

Windows 11 & Android 8

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xnman | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Mar 14 2022 6:53 AM

Ok....  I'll ask a question......

Say I want to search for Joshua (son of nun) death...  I have books with such information in them...

So I fire up Search...  and use "All Morph Text in All Passages in All Resources for"

The underlined have drop down choices.....

The choices under "All Moph" don't seem to apply.

The choices under "All Passages" don't seem to apply but mainly limit All Resources to just Bibles....

And choices for  "All Resources" seem to be limited to just Bibles.

Which bring me to the conclusion that SEARCH mainly is just a shade above the inline search of the Bible.

Now my question....  how do I search all the books in my Library to find out about Joshua? SEARCH just don't seem to get me there.

So I turn to "Topic Search" which will point me to "Factbook" and then I wade through information there to try to find it.

Thanks.

What I have been doing.... is when I do find whatever information I am looking for (and eventually I do find it... I'm persistent to a fault, lol).... then I put it in a Word docx file.... and make a Personal Book out of it.... and then I can find it any time I want. It's my work around.... Geeked

xn = Christan  man=man -- Acts 11:26 "....and the disciples were first called Christians in Antioch".

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Graham Criddle | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Mar 14 2022 7:35 AM

xnman:
So I fire up Search...  and use "All Morph Text in All Passages in All Resources for"

Morph Search  which is what you are describing here is for finding morpholigcally tagged resources - so not the right option for just searching references to Joshua.

If you want to find where Joshua is mentioned in the Bible, then you can use a Bible Search with a search field of <Person Joshua (son of Nun)> (and the autocompleter will give you this as an option when you just type in Joshua

If you want to find where Joshua is mentioned in non-biblical resources, you can use a Basic Search with a search field of Joshua or <Person Joshua (son of Nun)>

This will probably give you a lot of results to work through.

Alternatively - as suggested in your other post on this you could start with the Factbook entry on Joshua (Son of Nun)

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Andrew Batishko | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Mar 14 2022 7:50 AM

xnman:

Say I want to search for Joshua (son of nun) death...  I have books with such information in them...

So I fire up Search...  and use "All Morph Text in All Passages in All Resources for"

It sounds like you have selected a '"Morph" search (only searches morphologically tagged resources), when what you want is a "Basic" search. Try changing that (at the top of the search panel) and see if you get more of what you are expecting.

Andrew Batishko | Faithlife software developer

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