searching for two hebrew nouns and the verb they are governed by

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Posts 12
Howard | Forum Activity | Posted: Mon, Mar 21 2022 6:11 AM

Hello all,

I'm looking for hebrew nouns that occur back to back and the verb that governs them.

In english it would take the following form:

[verb]  [noun] and [noun]

in hebrew it would be

[verb]    [noun] waw+ [noun]

the nouns can be single word or a noun phrase (i.e. genitival chain). I am not looking for a specific word but all occurences two nouns back to back occur, and then separatey every case where two nouns occur that are governed by one verb, i.e. the verb is gapped

on top of that I would like to search to make separate searches in hebrew poetry and in hebrew prose.

Can any body help me with doing a search that finds either the "[noun] and [noun]" construction and/or the  "[verb]  [noun] and [noun]" construction?

anyhelp would be greatly appreciated

Blessings,
Howard

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Dave Hooton | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Mar 22 2022 3:17 AM

It is easy to specify a text Search with [verb] + [noun] and [noun]  e.g. <AFMorphHeb ~ V????????> BEFORE 1 WORDS <AFMorphHeb ~ N???????> BEFORE 1 WORD <AFMorphHeb ~ N???????> but much more selective to specify a Syntax Search with  

   [Verb] + a Subject with  [noun] and [noun] Phrase. 

Image
Precluding a third Segment ensures a Phrase with only two nouns.

 

Dave
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Posts 12
Howard | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Mar 23 2022 6:41 AM

Dave,

Thanks so much!

I tried your search parameter but am unable to specify the last segments  as part of speech=noun as well as precluding the third segment.

I'm sorry for such a newbie question, but how did you set up the last segments with parameters that you did?

Blessings,
Howard

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Graham Criddle | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Mar 23 2022 6:52 AM

Howard:
part of speech=noun

For this one, enter the @ sign in the Parts of Speech text box and select noun (and optionally, options)

Howard:
precluding the third segment

For this one, click the is present option in Match contexts where this term ... and select is not present

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Dave Hooton | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Mar 23 2022 7:42 PM

Howard:

Dave,

Thanks so much!

I tried your search parameter but am unable to specify the last segments  as part of speech=noun as well as precluding the third segment.

I'm sorry for such a newbie question, but how did you set up the last segments with parameters that you did?

Graham has answered your questions, but you can improve the results by changing  "Appears anywhere" (at the top of Segment Specifics):

  • first Segment = appears at the beginning
  • second segment = appears at the end

The current logic allows three occurrences because the two specified can be the second and third ones in the phrase!!

Dave
===

Windows 11 & Android 8

Posts 12
Howard | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Mar 25 2022 8:53 AM

All,

Thanks so much for your help.

this is what I set up:

in order to try and capture the sentence below:

what am i doing wrong?

I want to capture sentences which have the following form 

verb (ראה) --> two direct objects.

the direct objects can be single nouns, construct phrases, and can be separated with waw or have no waw, i.e. be in apposition

Posts 12
Howard | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Mar 25 2022 8:53 AM

All,

Thanks so much for your help.

this is what I set up:

in order to try and capture the sentence below:

what am i doing wrong?

I want to capture sentences which have the following form 

verb (ראה) --> two direct objects.

the direct objects can be single nouns, construct phrases, and can be separated with waw or have no waw, i.e. be in apposition

Posts 12
Howard | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Mar 25 2022 8:53 AM

All,

Thanks so much for your help.

this is what I set up:

in order to try and capture the sentence below:

what am i doing wrong?

I want to capture sentences which have the following form 

verb (ראה) --> two direct objects.

the direct objects can be single nouns, construct phrases, and can be separated with waw or have no waw, i.e. be in apposition

Posts 12
Howard | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Mar 25 2022 8:54 AM

it looks like my screenshots did not post.

Posts 12
Howard | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Mar 25 2022 8:55 AM

it looks like my screenshot did not post.

Posts 12
Howard | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Mar 25 2022 11:42 AM

Sorry i tried to screen shot my screen but it seems it didn't go through. When I tried again, i was flagged for potential spam and needed moderator approval. Once I get that i will post my screen shots.

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Forum MVP
NB.Mick | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Mar 25 2022 2:55 PM

Howard:

it looks like my screenshot did not post.

Pasting the screenshot won't work - even though it looks okay in the forum editor, it won't work. You can save your screenshots to a file and insert that with the paperclip icon, or you can paste them into the Amber storage (i.e. the Faithlife cloud - the orange button next to the paperclip) and insert into the post from there. 

Running Logos 9 latest (beta) version on Win 10

Posts 12
Howard | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Mar 25 2022 5:22 PM

@NB.Mick: thanks for the clarification.

Posts 12
Howard | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Mar 25 2022 5:39 PM

I realize I need to make this as specific as possible to get the help that I need.

I woud like the search to find the following clausal construction.

verb (ראה) --> direct object1 and direct object2

the direct objects can be separated by a waw, or can be without a waw, with the two objects in apposition to one another.

The objects do not have to simple nouns, but can also be noun phrases (e.g. construct chains etc).

the search should capture the following verses:

Ps 8:4  כי־אראה שמיך מעשי אצבעתיך ירח וכוכבים אשר כוננתה

Deut 26:7 נצעק אל־יהוה אלהי אבתינו וישמע יהוה את־קלנו וירא את־ענינו ואת־עמלנו ואת־לחצנו

 I have highlighted the portion of the verse which is of interest to me. Ps 8:4 has two direct objects, with no waw and are in apposition to one another.

Deut 26:7 has three direct objects each separated by waw (I don't care if there are more than 2 objects. 2 or more objects are fine with me).

In both verses the primary verb is ראה. I also want to capture all direct objects--abstract or otherwise, simple single nouns, or construct phrases, etc.

below are my syntax searches...the first seems to work sort of.  (I did not put the last portion of the syntax chain as segments.  I'm guessing this is poor form, but the search seems to work.) 

the second one with no waw and objects in apposition does not work.

Any help would be greatly appreciated!

search for objects in apposition

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Dave Hooton | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Mar 26 2022 8:59 PM

Howard:
Any help would be greatly appreciated!

This requires a little more tuning, but it gets your two passages

Image

In the second clause, note the use of dotted lines = Matching skips levels. It avoids mapping the exact structure in AFPMA.

Best to start simple  and then tune it if possible.

Dave
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Windows 11 & Android 8

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Dave Hooton | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Mar 27 2022 2:52 PM

Dave Hooton:
In the second clause, note the use of dotted lines = Matching skips levels. It avoids mapping the exact structure in AFPMA.

Another approach caters for Ps 8.4 more directly, reducing the overall number of results.

Image

I removed highlighting of the Direct Object as it gave a false impression of the actual results.

Dave
===

Windows 11 & Android 8

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Forum MVP
Keep Smiling 4 Jesus :) | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Mar 27 2022 10:41 PM

Howard:

the search should capture the following verses:

Ps 8:4  כי־אראה שמיך מעשי אצבעתיך ירח וכוכבים אשר כוננתה

Deut 26:7 נצעק אל־יהוה אלהי אבתינו וישמע יהוה את־קלנו וירא את־ענינו ואת־עמלנו ואת־לחצנו

WIVU Syntax Search can find Mother of Parallel (PAR), Conjunction, Daughter of Parallel (par)

Screen shot with inverted colors:

WIVU Syntax search can be expanded by making conjunction optional (may or may not appear), which increases results from 5,538 to 5,673

Keep Smiling Smile

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Keep Smiling 4 Jesus :) | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Mar 27 2022 11:19 PM

Howard:
In both verses the primary verb is ראה. I also want to capture all direct objects--abstract or otherwise, simple single nouns, or construct phrases, etc.

Screen shot colors inverted

Keep Smiling Smile

Posts 12
Howard | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Mar 31 2022 3:21 PM

All--esp Dave and Keep smiling 4 Jesus

Thank you sooooo much for all your help.

two last questions:

1. after running the searches is there any way for the search results to spit out also which verbs, objects, subjects are being used in the sentence that the results returns?

e.g. let's say I run a search, and it retuns 70 verses. Is there any way to get logos to also lists the verb being used in each verse, as well as the subject and objcects?  

2.  This is more question for @keep smiling 4 Jesus.

in addition to Dave's searches I tried our WIVU search with mother and daugher of parallels. Is there anyway in the WIVU searches, on how to specifiy a specific verb or object? e.g. ראה

Blessings,

Howard

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