Father's Day search help

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John Connell | Forum Activity | Posted: Sun, Mar 27 2022 12:34 PM

I may be called to preach the Fathers' Day sermon in church this year which is a big deal for me since it will be only my second time preaching. I want to do my homework properly. I would like to say that in the Old Testament there are no prayers addressed to "Father." How could I search the OT to convince myself that this is a true statement (if it is)?

-john

And he will turn the hearts of fathers to their children and the hearts of children to their fathers

(Mal 4:6)

And he will turn the hearts of fathers to their children and the hearts of children to their fathers (Mal 4:6a)

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MJ. Smith | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Mar 27 2022 12:48 PM

If you trust FL coding - since determining the criteria fo identify prayers is complex - I'd use

{Label Prayer WHERE Addressee ~ <Person God>}

Note FL has separate entries for God the Son and God the Holy Spirit but not for God the Father.

Orthodox Bishop Hilarion Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."

Posts 463
John Connell | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Mar 27 2022 1:01 PM

Thanks MJ. I want to make the point that in the OT nobody prayed to the "Father." Jesus taught us to pray to the "Father" and only then did Christians pray to the "Father." Clearly in the OT people prayed to God but did they pray to him as "Father?"

And he will turn the hearts of fathers to their children and the hearts of children to their fathers (Mal 4:6a)

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John Connell | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Mar 27 2022 1:20 PM

MJ, I saved the results of your search as a passage list and searched that for "Father" with zero results. Thank you. I think you solved my problem.

-john

And he will turn the hearts of fathers to their children and the hearts of children to their fathers (Mal 4:6a)

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Graham Criddle | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Mar 27 2022 1:37 PM

I did an OT search for father INTERSECTS <Person God>

You might want to look at Jeremiah 3:4 to see if this is relevant to your quest

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DMB | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Mar 27 2022 2:31 PM

John Connell:

Thanks MJ. I want to make the point that in the OT nobody prayed to the "Father." Jesus taught us to pray to the "Father" and only then did Christians pray to the "Father." Clearly in the OT people prayed to God but did they pray to him as "Father?"

Not criticizing, but you'd need to be careful exactly what you're saying. During the 2nd Temple period, God as the Father is not particularly unusual, and so, Jesus addressing God as the Father would be pretty normal, at the time. 

And if memory serves (not in front of my PC), the Psalms introduced the jewish tradition.

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John Connell | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Mar 27 2022 3:06 PM

Thanks Graham and DMB for keeping me straight.

-john

And he will turn the hearts of fathers to their children and the hearts of children to their fathers (Mal 4:6a)

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DAL | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Mar 27 2022 3:47 PM

Here’s an interesting article on The Fatherhood of God in the Old Testament: https://hrcak.srce.hr/file/250901 

DAL

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John Connell | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Mar 27 2022 4:19 PM

Great find DAL.

And he will turn the hearts of fathers to their children and the hearts of children to their fathers (Mal 4:6a)

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GaoLu | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Mar 28 2022 9:23 AM

DAL:

Here’s an interesting article on The Fatherhood of God in the Old Testament: https://hrcak.srce.hr/file/250901 

DAL

Yes

Posts 1033
Hamilton Ramos | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Apr 13 2022 9:52 AM

DAL:

what do you think of Jesus calling God Father, when it seems that His Father was actually the Holy Spirit? strange.

MATTHEW 1:20  KJ21 But while he thought on these things, behold, the angel of the Lord appeared unto him in a dream, saying, “Joseph, thou son of David, fear not to take unto thee Mary thy wife, for that which is conceived in her is of the Holy Ghost. ASV But when he thought on these things, behold, an angel of the Lord appeared unto him in a dream, saying, Joseph, thou son of David, fear not to take unto thee Mary thy wife: for that which is conceived in her is of the Holy Spirit. AMP But after he had considered this, an angel of the Lord appeared to him in a dream, saying, “Joseph, descendant of David, do not be afraid to take Mary as your wife, for the Child who has been conceived in her is of the Holy Spirit. AMPC But as he was thinking this over, behold, an angel of the Lord appeared to him in a dream, saying, Joseph, descendant of David, do not be afraid to take Mary [as] your wife, for that which is conceived in her is of (from, out of) the Holy Spirit. BRG But while he thought on these things, behold, the angel of the Lord appeared unto him in a dream, saying, Joseph, thou son of David, fear not to take unto thee Mary thy wife: for that which is conceived in her is of the Holy Ghost. CSB But after he had considered these things, an angel of the Lord appeared to him in a dream, saying, “Joseph, son of David, don’t be afraid to take Mary as your wife, because what has been conceived in her is from the Holy Spirit. CEB As he was thinking about this, an angel from the Lord appeared to him in a dream and said, “Joseph son of David, don’t be afraid to take Mary as your wife, because the child she carries was conceived by the Holy Spirit. CJB But while he was thinking about this, an angel of Adonai appeared to him in a dream and said, “Yosef, son of David, do not be afraid to take Miryam home with you as your wife; for what has been conceived in her is from the Ruach HaKodesh. CEV While Joseph was thinking about this, an angel from the Lord appeared to him in a dream. The angel said, “Joseph, the baby that Mary will have is from the Holy Spirit. Go ahead and marry her. DARBY but while he pondered on these things, behold, an angel of [the] Lord appeared to him in a dream, saying, Joseph, son of David, fear not to take to [thee] Mary, thy wife, for that which is begotten in her is of [the] Holy Spirit. DLNT And he having pondered these things, behold— an angel of the Lord appeared to him in a dream saying “Joseph, son of David, do not fear to take Mary as your wife, for the child having been fathered in her is by the Holy Spirit. DRA But while he thought on these things, behold the angel of the Lord appeared to him in his sleep, saying: Joseph, son of David, fear not to take unto thee Mary thy wife, for that which is conceived in her, is of the Holy Ghost. ERV But after Joseph thought about this, an angel from the Lord came to him in a dream. The angel said, “Joseph, son of David, don’t be afraid to accept Mary to be your wife. The baby inside her is from the Holy Spirit. EHV But as he was considering these things, an angel of the Lord suddenly appeared to him in a dream and said, “Joseph, son of David, do not be afraid to take Mary home as your wife, because the child conceived in her is from the Holy Spirit. ESV But as he considered these things, behold, an angel of the Lord appeared to him in a dream, saying, “Joseph, son of David, do not fear to take Mary as your wife, for that which is conceived in her is from the Holy Spirit. ESVUK But as he considered these things, behold, an angel of the Lord appeared to him in a dream, saying, “Joseph, son of David, do not fear to take Mary as your wife, for that which is conceived in her is from the Holy Spirit. EXB While Joseph ·thought about [considered; decided; resolved to do] these things, [L look; T behold] an angel of the Lord ·came [appeared] to him in a dream. The angel said, “Joseph, ·descendant [son] of David, don’t be afraid to take Mary as your wife, because ·the baby [L what is conceived] in her is from the Holy Spirit. GNV But while he thought these things, behold, the Angel of the Lord appeared unto him in a dream, saying, Joseph, the son of David, fear not to take Mary thy wife: for that which is conceived in her, is of the holy Ghost. GW Joseph had this in mind when an angel of the Lord appeared to him in a dream. The angel said to him, “Joseph, descendant of David, don’t be afraid to take Mary as your wife. She is pregnant by the Holy Spirit. GNT While he was thinking about this, an angel of the Lord appeared to him in a dream and said, “Joseph, descendant of David, do not be afraid to take Mary to be your wife. For it is by the Holy Spirit that she has conceived. HCSB But after he had considered these things, an angel of the Lord suddenly appeared to him in a dream, saying, “Joseph, son of David, don’t be afraid to take Mary as your wife, because what has been conceived in her is by the Holy Spirit. ICB While Joseph thought about this, an angel of the Lord came to him in a dream. The angel said, “Joseph, descendant of David, don’t be afraid to take Mary as your wife. The baby in her is from the Holy Spirit. ISV After he had thought about it, an angel of the Lord appeared to him in a dream. “Joseph, son of David,” he said, “don’t be afraid to take Mary as your wife, because what has been conceived in her is from the Holy Spirit. PHILLIPS The birth of Jesus Christ happened like this. When Mary was engaged to Joseph, just before their marriage, she was discovered to be pregnant—by the Holy Spirit. Whereupon Joseph, her future husband, who was a good man and did not want to see her disgraced, planned to break off the engagement quietly. But while he was turning the matter over in his mind an angel of the Lord appeared to him in a dream and said, “Joseph, son of David, do not be afraid to take Mary as your wife! What she has conceived is conceived through the Holy Spirit, and she will give birth to a son, whom you will call Jesus (‘the Saviour’) for it is he who will save his people from their sins.” JUB But while he thought on these things, behold, the angel of the Lord appeared unto him in dreams, saying, Joseph, thou son of David, fear not to take unto thee Mary thy wife; for that which is conceived in her is of the Holy Spirit. KJV But while he thought on these things, behold, the angel of the Lord appeared unto him in a dream, saying, Joseph, thou son of David, fear not to take unto thee Mary thy wife: for that which is conceived in her is of the Holy Ghost. AKJV But while he thought on these things, behold, the angel of the Lord appeared unto him in a dream, saying, Joseph, thou son of David, fear not to take unto thee Mary thy wife: for that which is conceived in her is of the Holy Ghost. LEB But as he was considering these things, behold, an angel of the Lord appeared to him in a dream, saying, “Joseph, son of David, do not be afraid to take Mary as your wife, for what has been conceived in her is from the Holy Spirit. TLB As he lay awake considering this, he fell into a dream, and saw an angel standing beside him. “Joseph, son of David,” the angel said, “don’t hesitate to take Mary as your wife! For the child within her has been conceived by the Holy Spirit. MSG While he was trying to figure a way out, he had a dream. God’s angel spoke in the dream: “Joseph, son of David, don’t hesitate to get married. Mary’s pregnancy is Spirit-conceived. God’s Holy Spirit has made her pregnant. She will bring a son to birth, and when she does, you, Joseph, will name him Jesus—‘God saves’—because he will save his people from their sins.” This would bring the prophet’s embryonic revelation to full term: Watch for this—a virgin will get pregnant and bear a son; They will name him Immanuel (Hebrew for “God is with us”). MEV But while he thought on these things, the angel of the Lord appeared to him in a dream saying, “Joseph, son of David, do not be afraid to take Mary as your wife, for He who is conceived in her is of the Holy Spirit. MOUNCE But as he pondered this, behold, an angel of the Lord appeared to him in a dream, saying, “Joseph, son of David, do not be afraid to take Mary · as your wife; for that which has been conceived in her is by the Holy Spirit. NOG Joseph had this in mind when an angel of the Lord appeared to him in a dream. The angel said to him, “Joseph, descendant of David, don’t be afraid to take Mary as your wife. She is pregnant by the Holy Spirit. NABRE Such was his intention when, behold, the angel of the Lord appeared to him in a dream and said, “Joseph, son of David, do not be afraid to take Mary your wife into your home. For it is through the holy Spirit that this child has been conceived in her. NASB But when he had thought this over, behold, an angel of the Lord appeared to him in a dream, saying, “Joseph, son of David, do not be afraid to take Mary as your wife; for the Child who has been conceived in her is of the Holy Spirit. NASB1995 But when he had considered this, behold, an angel of the Lord appeared to him in a dream, saying, “Joseph, son of David, do not be afraid to take Mary as your wife; for the Child who has been conceived in her is of the Holy Spirit. NCB After he had decided to follow this course of action, an angel of the Lord appeared to him in a dream and said, “Joseph, son of David, do not be afraid to receive Mary into your home as your wife. For this child has been conceived in her womb through the Holy Spirit. NCV While Joseph thought about these things, an angel of the Lord came to him in a dream. The angel said, “Joseph, descendant of David, don’t be afraid to take Mary as your wife, because the baby in her is from the Holy Spirit. NET When he had contemplated this, an angel of the Lord appeared to him in a dream and said, “Joseph, son of David, do not be afraid to take Mary as your wife, because the child conceived in her is from the Holy Spirit. NIRV But as Joseph was thinking about this, an angel of the Lord appeared to him in a dream. The angel said, “Joseph, son of David, don’t be afraid to take Mary home as your wife. The baby inside her is from the Holy Spirit. NIV But after he had considered this, an angel of the Lord appeared to him in a dream and said, “Joseph son of David, do not be afraid to take Mary home as your wife, because what is conceived in her is from the Holy Spirit. NIVUK But after he had considered this, an angel of the Lord appeared to him in a dream and said, ‘Joseph son of David, do not be afraid to take Mary home as your wife, because what is conceived in her is from the Holy Spirit. NKJV But while he thought about these things, behold, an angel of the Lord appeared to him in a dream, saying, “Joseph, son of David, do not be afraid to take to you Mary your wife, for that which is conceived in her is of the Holy Spirit. NLV While he was thinking about this, an angel of the Lord came to him in a dream. The angel said, “Joseph, son of David, do not be afraid to take Mary as your wife. She is to become a mother by the Holy Spirit. NLT As he considered this, an angel of the Lord appeared to him in a dream. “Joseph, son of David,” the angel said, “do not be afraid to take Mary as your wife. For the child within her was conceived by the Holy Spirit. NMB While he thought on these things, behold, the angel of the Lord appeared to him in a dream, saying, Joseph son of David, fear not to take unto you Mary your wife. For that which is conceived in her is of the Holy Spirit. NRSV But just when he had resolved to do this, an angel of the Lord appeared to him in a dream and said, “Joseph, son of David, do not be afraid to take Mary as your wife, for the child conceived in her is from the Holy Spirit. NRSVA But just when he had resolved to do this, an angel of the Lord appeared to him in a dream and said, ‘Joseph, son of David, do not be afraid to take Mary as your wife, for the child conceived in her is from the Holy Spirit. NRSVACE But just when he had resolved to do this, an angel of the Lord appeared to him in a dream and said, ‘Joseph, son of David, do not be afraid to take Mary as your wife, for the child conceived in her is from the Holy Spirit. NRSVCE But just when he had resolved to do this, an angel of the Lord appeared to him in a dream and said, “Joseph, son of David, do not be afraid to take Mary as your wife, for the child conceived in her is from the Holy Spirit. NTE But, while he was considering this, an angel of the Lord suddenly appeared to him in a dream. ‘Joseph, son of David,’ the angel said, ‘Don’t be afraid to get married to Mary. The child she is carrying is from the holy spirit. OJB Now just when Yosef [ben Dovid] had thought through to this tachlis (purpose) hinei! A malach Hashem appeared to him in a chalom, and said, Yosef ben Dovid, do not shrink from taking Miryam in nisuim (marriage) as your [basherte (destined mate) aishes chayil (virtuous woman)] kallah (bride), because what has been conceived in her is through the Ruach Hakodesh. RGT But while he thought these things, behold, the angel of the Lord appeared to him in a dream, saying, “Joseph, the son of David, do not be afraid to take Mary as your wife. For that which is conceived in her, is from the Holy Ghost. RSV But as he considered this, behold, an angel of the Lord appeared to him in a dream, saying, “Joseph, son of David, do not fear to take Mary your wife, for that which is conceived in her is of the Holy Spirit; RSVCE But as he considered this, behold, an angel of the Lord appeared to him in a dream, saying, “Joseph, son of David, do not fear to take Mary your wife, for that which is conceived in her is of the Holy Spirit; TLV But while he considered these things, behold, an angel of Adonai appeared to him in a dream, saying, “Joseph son of David, do not be afraid to take Miriam as your wife, for the Child conceived in her is from the Ruach ha-Kodesh. VOICE Now when Joseph had decided to act on his instincts, a messenger of the Lord came to him in a dream. Messenger of the Lord: Joseph, son of David, do not be afraid to wed Mary and bring her into your home and family as your wife. She did not sneak off and sleep with someone else—rather, she conceived the baby she now carries through the miraculous wonderworking of the Holy Spirit. WEB But when he thought about these things, behold, an angel of the Lord appeared to him in a dream, saying, “Joseph, son of David, don’t be afraid to take to yourself Mary as your wife, for that which is conceived in her is of the Holy Spirit. WE While he was thinking about this, he had a dream. An angel of the Lord came to him. He said, `Joseph, David's son, do not fear to take Mary to be your wife. Her baby is by the Holy Spirit. WYC But while he thought these things, lo! the angel of the Lord appeared to him in sleep, and said [lo! the angel of the Lord appeared in sleep, or sweven, to him, saying], Joseph, the son of David, do not thou dread to take Mary, thy wife; for that thing that is born in her is of the Holy Ghost. YLT And on his thinking of these things, lo, a messenger of the Lord in a dream appeared to him, saying, `Joseph, son of David, thou mayest not fear to receive Mary thy wife, for that which in her was begotten [is] of the Holy Spirit,
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Hamilton Ramos | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Apr 13 2022 10:01 AM

tried several times to format the above so each version was on a different line, but did not seem to work. Nowhere seems to say through the H.S., most if not all say of the Holy Spirit.

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David Thomas | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Apr 13 2022 10:17 AM

Hamilton Ramos:
what do you think of

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Hamilton Ramos | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Apr 13 2022 10:34 AM

The thread originator wants to know about father, so maybe it should have been:

DAL: do you know about any resources that deal with the apparent fatherhood of the Holy Spirit in Matthew 1:20, when Jesus elsewhere refers to God as Father and not the Holy Spirit.

{note this was implied because I know DAL, almost always cites good info, but voila}

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MJ. Smith | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Apr 13 2022 1:09 PM

Are you sure you are using "father" in the same sense as the OP?

Orthodox Bishop Hilarion Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."

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Hamilton Ramos | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Apr 13 2022 1:51 PM

The answer of knowledgeable posters is that there is father references in OT to God.

In NT there are key instructions by Jesus to refer to God as Father.

I am calling attention to what seems to be an exception, Mt 1:20 seems to imply that the H. S. is the father of Jesus, maybe the translation is not quite rendered like the original, DAL knows a lot about such things, that is why I asked him.

If the original poster wants to study all about the Father, he should also check the difficult data.

Every time I ask other believers, they keep saying that is Father through the Holy Spirit, but that does not seem to be what is written in Mt. 1:20, so I wanted to know DAL's findings because I know he studies such kind of things.

Another baffling example is Isaiah 9:6

Isa 9:6  For a child has been born for us; a son has been given to us. And the dominion will be on his shoulder, and his name is called Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace.

Some people think that the above refers to Christ, yet it says that Christ name will be "Everlasting Father", but maybe is not rendered very accurately from the original.

DAL knows more about such things that is why I am interested on what he has to say.

Posts 463
John Connell | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Apr 14 2022 3:14 AM

DAL, am I correct in thinking you are an author and teacher?

And he will turn the hearts of fathers to their children and the hearts of children to their fathers (Mal 4:6a)

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DAL | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Apr 14 2022 8:26 AM

How did I get so deep in this discussion, when all I did was recommend an article on what the OP asked for 😂😂😂

DAL

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Dave Hooton | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Apr 14 2022 6:02 PM

John Connell:

MJ, I saved the results of your search as a passage list and searched that for "Father" with zero results. Thank you. I think you solved my problem.

-john

A little more conclusive is  father INTERSECTS {Label Prayer WHERE Addressee ~ <Person God>} as it has 14 results!

In particular, 1 Chron 29.10 and Jer 3.4

father INTERSECTS <Person God>  INTERSECTS {Label Prayer WHERE Addressee ~ <Person God>} narrows it even further (combines both MJ's and Graham's search).

But it is strange that "father = Abraham" is equated as God (Gen 32.9).  I feel a bug report coming on!

Dave
===

Windows 11 & Android 8

Posts 463
John Connell | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Apr 14 2022 6:25 PM

Thanks Dave. I appreciate the effort.

john

And he will turn the hearts of fathers to their children and the hearts of children to their fathers (Mal 4:6a)

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