Wondering Why the NIV, NRSV and NETS are the best translations? Now you know.

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DMB | Forum Activity | Posted: Wed, Apr 20 2022 11:03 AM

https://academic.logos.com/why-the-niv-nrsv-and-nets-bible-are-the-best-translations-available/#more-13422  

This is just an advertisement for the FL academic blog.  I thought it died but I was wrong.  And the contributors are quite interesting as well.

This one caught my eye, mainly because I'd not seen NETS (Septuagint translation) mentioned along with the NIV (or NRSV for that matter).  As it turns out NETS = NET (and maybe NET2).

What's also interesting, is the article has carefully laid out 'test verses'.   I guess these are like political parties ... make sure your translation can come to the prayer meeting.

But (back to the advertisement), the articles are quite good.  I'd like to say better than before, but that would imply 'before' was less than better.  

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Dave Hooton | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Apr 20 2022 8:50 PM

DMB:
What's also interesting, is the article has carefully laid out 'test verses'.

In Witherington's test of Ro 3:22 "Abraham" does not appear "a little bit before this passage"  (nor anywhere in chapters 1-3)!

In his test of Lk 2.7, the Lk 15 parable should be a Lk 10 different parable.  "NIV correctly renders" is debatable when it is paraphrasing an awkward expression "no space in the guest room" (see the NET Bible Notes for its use of "inn").

And I question his literal rendering of Php 4:13.

But the John 3.16 argument is more credible.

Despite the ESV put down it does offer "the reality that there may be several viable translations of key phrase and terms" and it agrees with NET in many of the test verses. It also marks off the debatable John and Mark texts.

The article reflects Witherington's personal opinion but it is marred by inaccuracies.

Dave
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MJ. Smith | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Apr 20 2022 10:32 PM

Dave Hooton:
In Witherington's test of Ro 3:22 "Abraham" does not appear "a little bit before this passage"  (nor anywhere in chapters 1-3)!

It appears at Romans 4:16 i.e. a little after ..but the “pistis theou" is before i.e. Ro 3:3

Witherington said "(see Luke 15 and the parable of the prodigal son) " i.e. one chapter and one parable - two separate passages

Dave Hooton:
but it is marred by inaccuracies.

as is, unfortunately, your critique is also marred by inaccuracies

My 2009 list of preferred Bibles for exegesis favored NRSV and (T)NIV and NET so his list did not surprise me.

In Part One (chapters 1 and 2) Gorman discusses the task and text of exegesis. In chapter one he briefly defines exegesis before discussing the strengths and weaknesses of various ways in which exegesis has been done. He compares and contrasts the synchronic approach (focusing on the final form of the text as seen, for example, in narrative-critical, social-scientific, or socio-rhetorical readings) with the diachronic approach (the historical-critical method) and the existential approach (his name for readings which focus on hermeneutics, transformation, or theology, such as missional interpretation, sacred readings, postcolonial criticism, or liberationist exegesis). He argues for an eclectic approach in which synchronic exegesis is the first among equals. In chapter two Gorman focuses on the selection of an English translation for exegesis. He expresses a preference for formal-equivalence translations and divides translations into four categories:

1) preferred for exegesis (NRSV, NAB, TNIV, and NET),

2) useful for exegesis, with caution (RSV, NIV, NASB, REB, ESV, HCSB),

3) unacceptable for exegesis, but helpful in others ways (NLT, NJB, CEV, GNB, The Message), and

4) unacceptable for exegesis (KJV, NKJV, LB).

Orthodox Bishop Hilarion Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."

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David Ames | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Apr 21 2022 5:25 AM

What is the best translation starts with if you trust or hate two men of the late 1800s: Westcott, B. F and Hort, F. J. A.. 

And if you accept or reject two manuscripts of about 350 ad: Codex Vaticanus and Codex Sinaiticus.

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Dave Hooton | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Apr 21 2022 6:17 AM

MJ. Smith:

Dave Hooton:
In Witherington's test of Ro 3:22 "Abraham" does not appear "a little bit before this passage"  (nor anywhere in chapters 1-3)!

It appears at Romans 4:16 i.e. a little after ..but the “pistis theou" is before i.e. Ro 3:3

Yes. But his "a little bit before" is not the same as "after".

If Ro 3.3 is what he meant by “pistis theou" then it is a clumsy approximation of "pistin tou theou".

MJ. Smith:
Witherington said "(see Luke 15 and the parable of the prodigal son) " i.e. one chapter and one parable - two separate passages

The parable of the prodigal is told in Luke 15.

But show me where "pandeion" occurs anywhere. The NT word is "pandocheion" and it occurs only at Lk 10:34 (the parable of the good Samaritan).

MJ. Smith:

Dave Hooton:
but it is marred by inaccuracies.

as is, unfortunately, your critique is also marred by inaccuracies

I do my research carefully, Martha.

Dave
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DMB | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Apr 21 2022 6:20 AM

Dave Hooton:
Despite the ESV put down

The first thing I do when an ESV arrives (often Accordance packages), is remove it. The problem isn't a bad translation; it's a have-to-check translation. Translations are generally preferred because they deliver the goods (theologies).  Now, I say this smilingly, recognizing strictly an opinion.  I will say, the Lexham (anything Lexham) translation usually gets checked, but rarely any issue.

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Paul | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Apr 21 2022 6:25 AM

David Ames:

What is the best translation starts with if you trust or hate two men of the late 1800s: Westcott, B. F and Hort, F. J. A.. 

And if you accept or reject two manuscripts of about 350 ad: Codex Vaticanus and Codex Sinaiticus.

Thanks David -  In my opinion, what you wrote is absolutely true and has significant consequences as to whether you accept a range of modern Bibles. While I use some of these modern Bibles mentioned in this thread for cross-checking purposes, personally I do not rely on them. Keep  well Paul    

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Kathleen Marie | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Apr 21 2022 5:24 PM

To decide what is "best", one must first decide the criteria that will be used for judging.

Too often the "best" does not judge what is best for the marginalized, the poor, minimalists, and those less connected.

The KJV is not copyrighted in the USA. The KJV had vast amounts of uncopyrighted resources. The KJV and those resources can be used to create inexpensive software that runs on older and underpowered devices. The text stays the same. Period. Scripture songs, memorization resources, and study notes don't need to be replaced and updated. 

The NET 2.1 is able to be added to these less expensive softwares because it was edited to match up to Strong's concordance.

The NIrV is written at a 3rd grade level. The grammar choices are even more helpful than the vocabulary choices. It is the only translation that is fully understandable to some people.

What is "best" for whom? What is best for scholars is not always best for the church as a whole.

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MJ. Smith | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Apr 21 2022 5:59 PM

Kathleen Marie:
What is "best" for whom? What is best for scholars is not always best for the church as a whole.

While the absolute best may be a futile exercise, a rule of thumb best and a list of unacceptable for any purpose are reasonable judgments.

Kathleen Marie:
The text stays the same. Period

Well, almost ...

21 And God created great whales, and euery liuing creature that moueth, which the waters brought forth aboundantly after their kinde, and euery winged foule after his kinde: and God saw that it was good.

22 And God blessed them, saying, Be fruitfull, and multiply, and fill the waters in the Seas, and let foule multiply in the earth.22

23 And the euening and the morning were the fift day.

24 ¶ And God said, Let the earth bring forth the liuing creature after his kinde, cattell, and creeping thing, and beast of the earth after his kinde: and it was so.

25 And God made the beast of the earth after his kinde, and cattell after their kinde, and euery thing that creepeth vpon the earth, after his kinde: and God saw that it was good.

26 ¶ And God said, Let vs make man in our Image, after our likenesse: and let them haue dominion ouer the fish of the sea, and ouer the foule of the aire, and ouer the cattell, and ouer all the earth, and ouer euery creeping thing that creepeth vpon the earth.26

27 So God created man in his owne Image, in the Image of God created hee him; male and female created hee them.27

28 And God blessed them, and God said vnto them, Be fruitfull, and multiply, and replenish the earth, and subdue it, and haue dominion ouer the fish of the sea, and ouer the foule of the aire, and ouer euery liuing thing that mooueth vpon the earth.28

29 ¶ And God said, Behold, I haue giuen you euery herbe bearing seede, which is vpon the face of all the earth, and euery tree, in the which is the fruit of a tree yeelding seed, to you it shall be for meat:29

30 And to euery beast of the earth, and to euery foule of the aire, and to euery thing that creepeth vpon the earth, wherein there is life, I haue giuen euery greene herbe for meat: and it was so.30

31 And God saw euery thing that hee had made: and behold, it was very good. And the euening and the morning were the sixth day.31

Orthodox Bishop Hilarion Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."

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Kathleen Marie | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Apr 22 2022 6:39 AM

MJ. Smith:

Kathleen Marie:
The text stays the same. Period

Well, almost ...

21 And God created great whales, and euery liuing creature that moueth, which the waters brought forth aboundantly after their kinde, and euery winged foule after his kinde: and God saw that it was good.

...

Those spelling and font changes were made over hundreds of years and long before I was born. What is the year of the default Logos KJV? The 1860's? Major updates after more than 150 years compared to major updates every 10-20 years is a criteria that I list under "best" instead of under "worst" when it comes to choosing a text to memorize.

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DMB | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Apr 22 2022 6:56 AM

Kathleen Marie:
Major updates after more than 150 years compared to major updates every 10-20 years is a criteria that I list under "best" instead of under "worst" when it comes to choosing a text to memorize

Well, now that's a good point.

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Joseph George | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Apr 22 2022 8:14 AM

DMB:

https://academic.logos.com/why-the-niv-nrsv-and-nets-bible-are-the-best-translations-available/#more-13422  

This is just an advertisement for the FL academic blog.  I thought it died but I was wrong.  And the contributors are quite interesting as well.

Can someone supply me rss/atom link so I can subscribe to this blog in my feedreader?

I like the NET too, not that much for it's translation but more for it's extensive notes. I prefer the translation of BSB. I am still a work in progress.

I am also on the lookout for a Bible translation with transliterated names. I think English names have been corrupted from the original Aramaic/Syriac, including His names. Most of those people probably wouldn't know who you are calling, if you call them by their current English pronunciation. The scriptures seem to place a lot of importance over the name.

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MJ. Smith | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Apr 22 2022 4:15 PM

Kathleen Marie:
Major updates after more than 150 years compared to major updates every 10-20 years is a criteria that I list under "best" instead of under "worst" when it comes to choosing a text to memorize.

While it varies by location, I am not use to frequent updates and am rather amused by the falderal surrounding new releases in the forums at the same time there is little pressure to add historically important older translations.

Orthodox Bishop Hilarion Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."

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Kathleen Marie | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Apr 22 2022 8:25 PM

I have only been anxious for one new release in Logos: the Net 2.1. I use the NET 2.1 in other software that is based upon the KJV and Strong's, and I wanted the same translation in Logos when I am writing my papers.

I am assuming that we are never getting the updated NIrV from 2011. Sigh. I don't use that in my papers though, so it is not such a big deal. If I were creating Sunday School worksheets and lecture notes, it would be a bigger deal, though. There are schools and jails that use the NIrV 2011 as their primary hardcopy Bible, and it is a shame that the translation is not available to the teachers and preachers preparing their lessons in Logos.

Historically important translations must be important for paper writing, too.

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Mattillo | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Apr 23 2022 12:44 AM

what about the NCV for kids school? 

https://www.logos.com/product/312/the-new-century-version-bible 

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MJ. Smith | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Apr 23 2022 1:11 AM

Joseph George:
Can someone supply me rss/atom link so I can subscribe to this blog in my feedreader?

Its an option in the Explore section of the Home page of Logos - the academic blog

Orthodox Bishop Hilarion Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."

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MJ. Smith | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Apr 23 2022 1:12 AM

Mattillo:
what about the NCV for kids school? 

Not sure what you are asking ...

Orthodox Bishop Hilarion Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."

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Mattillo | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Apr 23 2022 2:09 AM

Kathleen Marie:

I am assuming that we are never getting the updated NIrV from 2011. Sigh. I don't use that in my papers though, so it is not such a big deal. If I were creating Sunday School worksheets and lecture notes, it would be a bigger deal, though. There are schools and jails that use the NIrV 2011 as their primary hardcopy Bible, and it is a shame that the translation is not available to the teachers and preachers preparing their lessons in Logos.

Sorry my response about the NCV was regarding this

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Kathleen Marie | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Apr 23 2022 8:21 AM

Mattillo:

what about the NCV for kids school? 

https://www.logos.com/product/312/the-new-century-version-bible 

Nope. The NCV is not even close to the NIrV. The NIrV has short sentences in active tense. The main verb always follows the subject. Pronouns are sometimes replaced with nouns. Names are standardized even if the original translation uses different names for the same people and places.

Anyone that has tutored ESL or people with reading disabilities can see the differences. But to people not alert to the needs of these populations, they will not see the differences.

When I took paralegal classes at my community college, many of my peers were lawyers from other countries that spoke a variety of languages. I was the only one that could interpret some things that the professors were saying to us. I spoke in English, but I spoke like the NIrV is written. The professors would try and study what I was doing, because they knew the foreign students went form bewilderment to understanding, but I could tell they were not figuring it out. They didn't have the time to ask me what I was doing, but would just stare at me, now the ones wearing the looks of bewilderment, while the students were all nodding.

The NIrV is a literary masterpiece. We can disagree about it as a Bible, but as a piece of English literature, there is nothing else to replace it.

What makes a Bible the "best"? The best Bible is the Bible that gets the job done. This is the Bible that is used in many jails. The 1st edition NIrV is just as easy to read as the 2011 NIrV, but it does not match the text in the hardcopy Bibles that so many children, ESL students, and prisoners are currently using. You can no longer purchase the 1st edition NIrV in hardcopy. During the transition, Zondervan sometimes replaced the old Bibles in the jails, rather than selling the jail more of the older version.

https://www.amazon.com/dp/0310445965/ref=emc_b_5_t 

Faithlife sells some NIrV 2011 ebooks and I bought one of those, but it is not the same as a Logos Bible.

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