Wondering Why the NIV, NRSV and NETS are the best translations? Now you know.

Page 2 of 2 (38 items) < Previous 1 2
This post has 37 Replies | 2 Followers

Posts 5130
Mattillo | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Apr 23 2022 9:53 AM

Kindle Sale today only as well

https://www.amazon.com/dp/B004G5Z1HM/?tag=gospelebooks-20 

Posts 2967
David Ames | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Apr 23 2022 10:08 AM

Mattillo:
    what about the NCV for kids school?   https://www.logos.com/product/312/the-new-century-version-bible 

See https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_Century_Version for more information on that bible 

We personally supplied our church school class with the  International Children’s Bible (ICB) when we were teaching grades 1-4.

It was something that they could read.  A bible that can not be read is useless regardless of how highly it is praised by the experts.

Posts 732
Kathleen Marie | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Apr 24 2022 6:12 PM

Mattillo:

Yes!!! I pre-ordered it!

Posts 732
Kathleen Marie | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Apr 24 2022 6:17 PM

Mattillo:

That is the NIV, not the NIrV. This is the NIrV 2014. I made a mistake. It is the 2014 NIrV that is the current version printed in hardcopy. I think the NIrV 2014 must be the 3rd version, not the 2nd.

https://www.amazon.com/NIrV-Holy-Bible-eBook-Zondervan-ebook/dp/B00PFD5K02/ref=sr_1_1?crid=8XITT9UROLLU&keywords=nirv&qid=1650849272&s=digital-text&sprefix=nirv%2Cdigital-text%2C189&sr=1-1 

Posts 732
Kathleen Marie | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Apr 24 2022 6:41 PM

David Ames:

Mattillo:
    what about the NCV for kids school?   https://www.logos.com/product/312/the-new-century-version-bible 

See https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_Century_Version for more information on that bible 

We personally supplied our church school class with the  International Children’s Bible (ICB) when we were teaching grades 1-4.

It was something that they could read.  A bible that can not be read is useless regardless of how highly it is praised by the experts.

The NCV is a bit closer than some others, and MUCH easier to understand than the NRSV, but still not the NIrV. The NIrV is a low 3rd grade level or even lower. I think advertising experts decided that 3rd grade would sell better than 2nd grade. The sentence structure is closer to first grade than it is to third. The basic sentence structure is repetitive. Subject, main verb, direct object. Subject, main verb, direct object. All the fluff of a sentence is shaved off and turned into another sentence. All of the original author's style is gone. And anything that is implied is made explicit, obviously according to the publisher's bias.

Read Roman 1:1-7 side by side.

NIrV

I, Paul, am writing this letter. I serve Christ Jesus. I have been appointed to be an apostle. God set me apart to tell others his good news. He promised the good news long ago. He announced it through his prophets in the Holy Scriptures. The good news is about God’s Son. He was born into the family line of King David. By the Holy Spirit, he was appointed to be the mighty Son of God. God did this by raising him from the dead. He is Jesus Christ our Lord. We received grace because of what Jesus did. He made us apostles to the Gentiles. We must invite all of them to obey God by trusting in Jesus. We do this to bring glory to him. You also are among those Gentiles who are appointed to belong to Jesus Christ.

I am sending this letter to all of you in Rome. You are loved by God and appointed to be his holy people.

May God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ give you grace and peace.

NCV

From Paul, a servant of Christ Jesus. God called me to be an apostle and chose me to tell the Good News.

God promised this Good News long ago through his prophets, as it is written in the Holy Scriptures. 3-4 The Good News is about God’s Son, Jesus Christ our Lord. As a man, he was born from the family of David. But through the Spirit of holiness he was declared to be God’s Son with great power by rising from the dead. Through Christ, God gave me the special work of an apostle, which was to lead people of all nations to believe and obey. I do this work for him. And you who are in Rome are also called to belong to Jesus Christ.

To all of you in Rome whom God loves and has called to be his holy people:

Grace and peace to you from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ.

NRSV

Paul, a servant[a] of Jesus Christ, called to be an apostle, set apart for the gospel of God, which he promised beforehand through his prophets in the holy scriptures, the gospel concerning his Son, who was descended from David according to the flesh and was declared to be Son of God with power according to the spirit[b] of holiness by resurrection from the dead, Jesus Christ our Lord, through whom we have received grace and apostleship to bring about the obedience of faith among all the Gentiles for the sake of his name, including yourselves who are called to belong to Jesus Christ,

To all God’s beloved in Rome, who are called to be saints:

Grace to you and peace from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ.

Posts 36052
Forum MVP
MJ. Smith | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Apr 24 2022 7:19 PM

And to think my (great)grandparents' generation learned to read from the Bible as often as a primer ... and with English being a second language.

Orthodox Bishop Hilarion Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."

Posts 2967
David Ames | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Apr 25 2022 5:29 AM

MJ. Smith:

And to think my (great)grandparents' generation learned to read from the Bible as often as a primer ... and with English being a second language.

Perhaps if we were informed as to what version your "(great)grandparents' generation learned to read from the Bible as often as a primer" from?

Many of us know that that version was widely used as a reading primer in the 1800s [if my guess is correct as to the version they used]

Posts 2552
GaoLu | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Apr 25 2022 6:06 AM

While that mystery version may have been Hebrew, Aramaic or even Greek, it could also have been the Se Wsi Finnish NT translated by 1543 by the Bishop of Turku, Mikael Agricola, and published in 1548--sixty-three full years before the also-suspect KJV. 

 

Posts 732
Kathleen Marie | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Apr 25 2022 12:15 PM

I am not going to discuss what children can and cannot do, but I am going to talk about adults that never learned to read and/or are learning English as a second language.

Reading disabilities are real. I have a step parent that never learned to read and I grew up reading for that parent as discreetly as possible. This started a curiosity for learning about remedial reading techniques. These people are often brilliant, but their brains don't take to reading, the same way some of us readers are not race car drivers or gymnasts or chess-players. Brains and bodies are unique, and if we work together as one body, as scripture teaches us, then we can do great things TOGETHER.

Some of my remedial students did learn to read from the KJV Bible, or at least to listen to it and memorize it. But the NIrV is written exactly how I used to translate my professor's words. My professors saw nothing significant in the changes that I made to their words, but they did see the increased understanding of my peers. The NIrV, when students trusted it, relieved me of the burden of restating the text, and empowered those students to read the Bible on their own. 

People that speak rarer languages and dialects and creoles do better when they have a Bible written in their "heart language", even when they live in a country with an official language that is one of the major language. The same holds true for English speaking people that were reared in slums and without access to exposure to older and more advanced texts and speech. The body of Christ has the resources to empower these people so they can in turn empower the church with their strengths.

As for ESL students, it amazes me the high expectations that Americans have for immigrants to learn English, when Americans are so bad at learning languages themselves. Foreign language learning is HARD for me. I don't expect others to do something that I can't do.

Short simple sentences without extra clauses are easier to understand. Yes, there might be some editor bias that leads people astray, but that pales in comparison to the mistakes that some people will make trying to understand more complex sentences.

In general, I think we have too many translations and update them too often. But there are some translations that have been designed to do a very specific job, and succeed at their goal.

Posts 36052
Forum MVP
MJ. Smith | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Apr 25 2022 1:19 PM

Very simple "translations" often butcher the text by removing all the relationships between the clauses in order to make simple sentences. I prefer to minimize the use of children's and paraphrased Bibles. 

As for my great grandparents, 2 would have used a Finnish Bible i.e. Biblia: Se on: Coco Pyhä Ramattu Suomexi, 2 would have used a German Bible - Martin Luther's. 3 would have used the Authorized Version aka KJV, and 1 Douay-Rheims.

Orthodox Bishop Hilarion Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."

Posts 325
scooter | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Apr 25 2022 1:46 PM

Kathleen Marie:
Short simple sentences without extra clauses are easier to understand

I note the following people write like this.  I love the ease of understanding this engenders.

John Frame.  Thomas Schreiner.

My wife.  She received an MBA in her 50s.  I edited her papers, + she submitted them online.  English is her second language.

We have family friends in their 30s.  Both were born in China.  The lady asked me to edit her assignments for a community college business writing course.  English is her fourth language.  Her writing style is exactly like Frame's.  

Mark Barnes.

Posts 732
Kathleen Marie | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Apr 27 2022 8:13 PM

MJ. Smith:

Very simple "translations" often butcher the text by removing all the relationships between the clauses in order to make simple sentences. I prefer to minimize the use of children's and paraphrased Bibles. 

I agree, but the people that most need these translations often fail to understand the relationship between the clauses. Not just for reading and English reasons, but sometimes because they fail to understand the relationships. In my tutoring, I had to spend a lot of time teaching the difference between "because" and "after". What people "should" understand and what they do understand can be radically different. "Because" and "after" are fairly advanced ideas.

Clauses require multitasking. Some people cannot multitask. Cursive requires even more multitaking than reading clauses. With cursive, you have to think about the next letter before you finish writing the one being written, so that you can choose the right connector.

It is critical that we meet people exactly where they are, and work up from there, step by step. These people are often easily discouraged and have not always been treated with dignity. They are often fragile in multiple ways. I was super careful not to let my tutoring students fail or think that my failure were their failures. I always told them that all failures were mine, and to give me time to pull back and try something else.

Posts 36052
Forum MVP
MJ. Smith | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Apr 27 2022 8:31 PM

Kathleen Marie:
It is critical that we meet people exactly where they are,

It is equally important that we don't underestimate their abilities and potential - a person may not be able to read & write enough to pay his bills and still be able to correctly price most collectible coins (a real example from personal experience).

Orthodox Bishop Hilarion Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."

Posts 6005
Simon’s Brother | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Apr 28 2022 1:02 AM

Kathleen Marie:
It is critical that we meet people where they are, and work up from there, step by step. These people are easily discouraged and have not been treated with. They are fragile in multiple ways. I was super careful not to let my tutoring fail or think that my were their failures. I told them that all failures were mine, and to give me time to pull back and try something else.

Couldn't agree more Kathleen.  I am learning the biblical languages because I have the aptitude to do so, and I want to be able to notice the nuisances that get lost in English translations because I have an curiosity to be aware of these things and want to understand them. But I don't see that makes someone who has different gifting to me, and for them an 'easy-English' version is at the right level for them to be able to ready confidently and their curiosity in life is directed at other things any less than me.  They will be much better than me at other tasks I don't excel at performing because I have no natural inclination or curiosity about those things. The Body of Christ, the Church, is made up of a wide range of people. Sure, they miss some things between the lines, that I might notice because of their different readying ability but if they understand the gospel message, and have put their faith in God, they are equally a brother or sister in Christ. Our reading comprehension level has no bearing on our ability to be in relationship with God and receive is saving grace.

Posts 732
Kathleen Marie | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Apr 28 2022 8:20 AM

MJ. Smith:

Kathleen Marie:
It is critical that we meet people exactly where they are,

It is equally important that we don't underestimate their abilities and potential - a person may not be able to read & write enough to pay his bills and still be able to correctly price most collectible coins (a real example from personal experience).

I agree. I said in an earlier post how brilliant these people are, with their own special skills that the church needs. But starting at a person's current reading level and moving up step by step with a systematic plan is not underestimating people. 

I am not looking down on these people. It is the opposite. These people have special gifts that are not as common in people with higher reading levels, and the church needs those gifts. We cannot afford to waste these people. They need to be at the center of things, not at the edges. A person is seldom at the center, or in a place of leadership without a complete Bible that they can understand. Some people will transition to another translation; some will not. The church body is made up of different parts and this is good as long as we work together and follow the directions in Scripture on how to do this.

The NIrV is a tool. No tool is the only tool. I am just glad that Logos will soon be adding this tool to our toolbox. I can stop using my screw drivers and wrenches as hammers. I really missed having a hammer.

Posts 6060
SineNomine | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Apr 29 2022 12:53 PM

It seems to me that MJ has been primarily writing in this thread about adults and children who do not have learning disabilities (but have varying levels of education), whereas Kathleen has been focusing on people who do have learning (and/or other relevant) disabilities, and that this difference is obscuring where their positions do and do not differ.

"God commands you to pray, but He forbids you to worry." - The Curé d'Ars.

Posts 36052
Forum MVP
MJ. Smith | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Apr 29 2022 2:43 PM

You're close. There is also a difference on the importance of reading which causes me to me more concerned about patronizing and Kathleen to be more concerned about going over the head. But, yes, we basically agree but have differences in emphasis.

Orthodox Bishop Hilarion Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."

Posts 1431
DMB | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Apr 30 2022 11:20 AM

Today's ancient papyri shipped today, so I was happlily seeing what was included ... from 2,000+ years ago. I'm reluctant to use tiny samples to make broad generalizations. But the below quote was interesting ... language complexity can be reader-driven (who the intended was). I'd assume similarly the Text.

"In the simple construction of the sentences and the general absence of connecting particles, the letter is a good illustration of the epistolary style of the period."

Page 2 of 2 (38 items) < Previous 1 2 | RSS