TL/DR: 1) How do I get search results for the questions of Christ. 2) Please relook at the Logos search function.
I realize this is a much-discussed topic (maybe that indicates a problem for the general user), but after searching the forums (for literally hours), I still can't figure out how to find the questions of Christ.
I am a fairly new user of Logos (about 1.5 years) and I know am just scratching the surface of the power of Logos - regardless, this has me stymied. It seems to me some basic items seem out of reach for an avid (e.g. daily) user. As a former software developer, I understand SQL/variable/boolean searches, but for the life of me, I can't get an answer for many of my questions without multiple forums/blogs searches - only to go online for an answer.
It seems to me that, despite the difficulty for the back-end developers, this has been an issue since the very early days of Logos. As you know, a user's confidence in the software dictates how indispensable the sw is to them. In other words, If I get search results, but I don't trust them, this should be an indicator to the developers of areas to refine in the sw. Note: I am not advocating for scope-creep, simply refining what should be a basic functionality of the Logos Search.
jjw
Hi Jason,
I was able to do this easily by using the search templates as a model.
First, I opened the Search Templates Sidebar and chose One Person Asks Another Person A Question. I filled in Jesus and Peter.
That gave me the search term: {Speaker <Person Jesus>} INTERSECTS {Label Question} INTERSECTS {Addressee <Person Peter>}
I deleted the last part (about Peter) and got my search for all the questions of Jesus:
I think the first place a person should go when you don't know how to search for something is to the search templates. Don't be disappointed if the search template you need isn't immediately apparent, because you might be able to modify one of them to work for what you need.
How To Get Logs
Jason Wells: As a former software developer, I understand SQL/variable/boolean searches, but for the life of me, I can't get an answer for many of my questions without multiple forums/blogs searches - only to go online for an answer.
I think you identified the problem. You're coming from SQL, boolean and yes ... the old high school days with Venn diagrams. MJ probably knows more about 'what happened', but as they moved forward, primarily with multi-language streams, the syntax became more and more unique to Logos. So much so, that experienced users are scratching their heads, forum questions are half-answers, etc.
At this point, I suspect the horse is out of the barn. If it makes you feel any better, the assistance to users has barely improved over the years.
Jason Wells: TL/DR: 1) How do I get search results for the questions of Christ. 2) Please relook at the Logos search function. I realize this is a much-discussed topic (maybe that indicates a problem for the general user), but after searching the forums (for literally hours), I still can't figure out how to find the questions of Christ. I am a fairly new user of Logos (about 1.5 years) and I know am just scratching the surface of the power of Logos - regardless, this has me stymied. It seems to me some basic items seem out of reach for an avid (e.g. daily) user. As a former software developer, I understand SQL/variable/boolean searches, but for the life of me, I can't get an answer for many of my questions without multiple forums/blogs searches - only to go online for an answer. It seems to me that, despite the difficulty for the back-end developers, this has been an issue since the very early days of Logos. As you know, a user's confidence in the software dictates how indispensable the sw is to them. In other words, If I get search results, but I don't trust them, this should be an indicator to the developers of areas to refine in the sw. Note: I am not advocating for scope-creep, simply refining what should be a basic functionality of the Logos Search. jjw
Do you have the Bible Browser? If so, you should be able to open to Speaker: Jesus and Sentence Type: Interrogative. I see a result of 333 "hits".
Bill Shewmaker:Do you have the Bible Browser? If so, you should be able to open to Speaker: Jesus and Sentence Type: Interrogative. I see a result of 333 "hits".
I think this proves the OP's point. It's a great suggestion, but it's not in the least intuitive. On Google we would just type "what questions did Jesus ask?" or "how many questions did Jesus ask?" and Google would interpret our language. Not so with Logos. We must not only know what search results we want, but exactly HOW to get those results. Likewise, the INTERSECTS operator is a wonderful tool, but if you don't KNOW it exists, then it's essentially non-existent (in a Shrödingerian kind of way).
Having used Logos a long time, I'm used to its quirks, but I still resort to the search templates to remember how to form a search properly. How refreshing it would be to simply type "what questions did Jesus ask?" and get an answer.
I'm using the Bible Browser more and more rather than search. Much easier to find many of the pieces of information we are actually looking for.
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I concur with the challenges people experience. My main complaint about Logos is the lack of user friendliness. This is mainly caused by inconsistencies in the user interface as well as the highly complex search syntax. Yes, searches might produce results that are highly precise, but this does not help if I cannot remember the syntax.
I also noticed the Bible Browser. However, again, who can remember which tool to use out of the many tools Logos has, many of which have overlapping functionality? To me (a non-native English speaker), "Bible Browser" sounds like a tool that helps me browse through the Bible. However, it is much more another search tool.
Armin:My main complaint about Logos is the lack of user friendliness.
I listed here some GUI inconsistencies:
https://community.logos.com/forums/t/197602.aspx
Some of them could easily be fixed but they don't seem to be a priority for FL.
GUI design is a complex topic with lots of research happening. Still, there is no easy way to ensure a GUI is easy to use. However, GUI inconsistencies significantly reduce usability.
As I mentioned previously in the forums: I gave Logos to about 5 people all of whom I believed were prime candidates to turn into long-term Logos users. However, none of them uses it regularly for the same reason: Too difficult to use.
If Logos wants a wider customer base, it must develop a more intuitive SEARCH feature, while keeping its present search features for those who need them. The search feature is certainly a nightmare for those new to Logos Bible software.
I have used Logos for over 30 years, and I can usually find a way to search for whatever I am looking for, in English, Greek, or Hebrew. But the search feature is a real turn-off to new customers. There must be a way to fix it and make most searching very intuitive, while keeping the Geeks happy also.
"In all cases, the Church is to be judged by the Scripture, not the Scripture by the Church," John Wesley
Jason Wells:2) Please relook at the Logos search function
Mike Childs:There must be a way to fix it and make most searching very intuitive
Personal experience: I find the most common searches intuitive except for the span searched (verse, article, clause). I find documentation on uncommon searches only in the wiki, and on labels -scattered. The isolation of the clause search and the difficulty in setting the analysis view from semantic to grammatic limits its use. I've not tried to master the syntax search, I find Preaching Theme and Lexham Systematic Theology categories useless because they divide material in ways that are far different than my mental map.
Faithlife has relooked at the search in the last few major releases changing the cookbook format to a template format, using Bible Browser and Factbook to replace the need for many searches ... The problem in intractable for two major reasons:
I am certain they will try again in L10 but fear I hope only for marginal improvement because users can't request what they don't know - and most users don't spend the time necessary to learn what data is available. Why am I so pessimistic? Because I have yet to see or think of a solution that would retain the power and still simplify it.
Orthodox Bishop Hilarion Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."
Mike Childs: If Logos wants a wider customer base, it must develop a more intuitive SEARCH feature, while keeping its present search features for those who need them. The search feature is certainly a nightmare for those new to Logos Bible software. I have used Logos for over 30 years, and I can usually find a way to search for whatever I am looking for, in English, Greek, or Hebrew. But the search feature is a real turn-off to new customers. There must be a way to fix it and make most searching very intuitive, while keeping the Geeks happy also.
Amen!
The search feature in Logos along with some of the guides... are a big turn off for me!
I pray Logos critically look at the Search feature and do something about it.
xn = Christan man=man -- Acts 11:26 "....and the disciples were first called Christians in Antioch".
While I understand the comments regarding the difficulty of certain types of searches in Logos, it is good to remember that other bible software does not have persons, speakers, addressees and other items tagged items available in their texts. Logos has provided many, perhaps too many, ways to interact with the text through searches, labels and tagged texts. We may sometimes be frustrated, but we are blessed.
One of my favorite posts was 6 years ago. Bible Browser was just released. And Fr Devin asked an obvious question:
https://community.logos.com/forums/t/130729.aspx?ssi=0
The thread wiggles around, and then Bradley sends it to another thread, where it's explained why it just can't be done.
Good search tools aren't impossible in religious software. Just need a better software designer. Fixing a poor design later, is just more poor design.
Mike Childs: If Logos wants a wider customer base, it must develop a more intuitive SEARCH feature, while keeping its present search features for those who need them. The search feature is certainly a nightmare for those new to Logos Bible software.
I completely agree. They need both: The current precision of detailed and complex searches, as well as a simple search that finds most things.
Mike Childs: I have used Logos for over 30 years, and I can usually find a way to search for whatever I am looking for, in English, Greek, or Hebrew.
I have used Logos for over 30 years, and I can usually find a way to search for whatever I am looking for, in English, Greek, or Hebrew.
I am not yet there but then I have used Logos for only 19 years.
However, I must admit that my learning curve flattened out. I did a lot of training courses but unless I use a feature regularly, I forget it again.
Armin:The current precision of detailed and complex searches, as well as a simple search that finds most things.
There is a simple search structured pretty much like Google that finds most things that are text only. The moment you start moving from direct text, things get more complex. It is unavoidable. For example, if you want to find Abram and Abraham in the text
but if you wish to take advantage of the Logos coding and get all the places Abraham is mentioned under any name or pronoun or other reference, you use:
I'm not minimizing the difficulties nor suggesting there are no improvements, I'm just trying to get users to think clearly about the issue so they can make concrete suggestions -- something Faithlife can act on.
MJ. Smith: I'm not minimizing the difficulties nor suggesting there are no improvements, I'm just trying to get users to think clearly about the issue so they can make concrete suggestions -- something Faithlife can act on.
I did point out several concrete inconsistencies here: https://community.logos.com/forums/t/197602.aspx But so far, no visible action on FL's part has been taken. My hope is that L10 will fix some of them.
When it comes to usability, taking ideas from widely used products can help. For instance, Logos' tab management is very awkward. Why not take the superb tab management from Chrome? And the same is valid for the "History" of resources/tabs that were used. I wished I could search / sort / .... my Logos history. Again, I mentioned this years ago here on the Forum. But nothing happened.
Innovations rarely come from end users. They mainly come from a few smart people working in industry or starting up their own companies. Just like Bob did several decades ago. But FL needs to remain innovative. They broaden their product range but should not forget Logos.
Armin:I did point out several concrete inconsistencies here: https://community.logos.com/forums/t/197602.aspx But so far, no visible action on FL's part has been taken.
Yes, GUI inconsistencies where I agree with you. I am specifically referring to the Search - primarily the search panel.
MJ. Smith: Armin:I did point out several concrete inconsistencies here: https://community.logos.com/forums/t/197602.aspx But so far, no visible action on FL's part has been taken. Yes, GUI inconsistencies where I agree with you. I am specifically referring to the Search - primarily the search panel.
Amen and Amen to both of you!