SUGGESTION: Please reconsider your classification of religious groups

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MJ. Smith | Forum Activity | Posted: Fri, May 6 2022 5:48 PM

Roman Catholicism belongs under Catholicism (Denomination Group).

Worldwide Church of God I would expect to see with other nonTrinitarian churches.

It is absolutely essential that this classification scheme be based on objective criteria rather than perception of the majority of current Logos users.

I would like to see this hierarchy expanded to the Abrahamic religions i.e.:

  • Christianity
  • Islam
  • Judaism
  • Baháʼí Faith
  • Druze
  • Yezidi
  • Samaritanism
  • Rastafarianism

This is important because current events from the Middle East often include mention of these groups

I am assuming that under Patristic Church you will add:

The following Christian groups appeared between the beginning of the Christian religion and the First Council of Nicaea in 325.

Unlike the previously mentioned groups, the following are all considered to be related to Christian Gnosticism.

And I assume the following will be divided between the Patristic and Medieval Church:

But I object to LDS and Unification being outside the Christian group while Messianic Jews are within it. I believe Wikipedia's categorization to be more defensible

Independent Russian[edit]

Southcottist[edit]

Main article: Southcottism

Christian Identitist[edit]

Independent/Isolated[edit]

Nontrinitarian[edit]

Main article: Nontrinitarianism

These groups or organizations diverge from historic trinitarian theology (usually based on the Council of Nicaea) with different interpretations of Nontrinitarianism.

Oneness Pentecostalism[edit]

Main article: Oneness Pentecostalism

Unitarian and Universalism[edit]

Main articles: Unitarianism and Christian Universalism

Nontrinitarian Restorationism[edit]

American Israelism and Latter Day Saint movement[edit]
Main articles: Latter Day Saint movement and Mormonism See also: List of sects in the Latter Day Saint movement and Mormonism and Christianity

Most Latter Day Saint denominations are derived from the Church of Christ established by Joseph Smith in 1830. The largest worldwide denomination of this movement, and the one publicly recognized as Mormonism, is The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. Some sects, known as the "Prairie Saints", broke away because they did not recognize Brigham Young as the head of the church, and did not follow him West in the mid-1800s. Other sects broke away over the abandonment of practicing plural marriage after the 1890 Manifesto. Other denominations are defined by either a belief in Joseph Smith as a prophet or acceptance of the Book of Mormon as scripture. The Latter Day Saints comprise a little over 16 million members collectively.[86]

"Prairie Saint" Latter Day Saints[edit]
"Rocky Mountain" Latter Day Saints[edit]
Fundamentalist Rocky Mountain Latter Day Saints[edit]
Main article: Mormon fundamentalism
Other Latter Day Saint denominations[edit]
British Israelism[edit]
World Wide Church of God splinter groups[edit]
Bible Students and splinter groups[edit]
Main article: Bible Student movement
Other Nontrinitarian restorationists[edit]

Swedenborgianism[edit]

Main article: The New Church

Christian Science[edit]

Main article: Christian Science

Esoteric Christianity (Gnosticism)[edit]

Main articles: Esoteric Christianity and Western esotericism

Other Nontrinitarians[edit]

Judeo-Christian[edit]

Main articles: Judaizers and Judeo-Christian See also: Messianic Jewish theology and List of Sabbath-keeping churches

Messianic Judaism[edit]

Black Hebrew Israelites[edit]

Main article: Black Hebrew Israelites

Other groups[edit]

.   

Orthodox Bishop Hilarion Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."

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xnman | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, May 6 2022 7:34 PM

Suggest ---

Church of Christ

Church of Christ - Non Institutional

Church of Christ - Instrumental

Church of Christ - Progressive

xn = Christan  man=man -- Acts 11:26 "....and the disciples were first called Christians in Antioch".

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MJ. Smith | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, May 6 2022 8:57 PM

In the clip, I was covering only the non-traditional Christian groups - primarily non-Trinitarian and syncretic.  Under Protestant, they fall in the subsection titled:

Campbellite and Millerist[edit]

Main articles: AdventismRestorationism, and Restoration movement See also: Christian primitivism and Second Great Awakening
I had no high level objections to the Logos divisions of:
  • Catholicism
  • Eastern Orthodox
  • Oriental Orthodox
  • Protestant
    • Anabaptist
    • Anglican
    • Baptist
    • Congregational
    • Lutheran
    • Methodist
    • Nondenominational
    • Other denomination (may include a non-Trinitarian entry ... I need to double check)
    • Other Protestant group
    • Pentecostal
    • Plymouth Brethren
    • Presbyterian
    • Reformed
    • Restoration
    • Seventh-day Adventist (I would broaden)
    • Uniting Church
  • Proto-Protestant

Orthodox Bishop Hilarion Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."

Posts 1206
xnman | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, May 7 2022 11:32 AM

Church of Christ ..... is not... Campbellite or Millerist

Church of Christ  is a stand alone....  Most people don't understand this... but it is true none the less.

xn = Christan  man=man -- Acts 11:26 "....and the disciples were first called Christians in Antioch".

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MJ. Smith | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, May 7 2022 2:16 PM

xnman:
Church of Christ  is a stand alone....  Most people don't understand this... but it is true none the less.

Regardless of a church group's self-definition, the classification must be based on generally known, objective criteria. If it were not, Catholics, Eastern Orthodox, the Armenian Church, Oriental Orthodox, and the Church of the East -- and most of the administrative subdivisions would insist on simply being called the Church -- which may be "true" but is not helpful for those trying to find a particular church in a very long list.

Why did I put "true" in quotation marks? to emphasize that saying "most people don't understand this ... but it is true none the less" appears to be a theological statement, if I read your intent correctly. From growing up in the Church of Christ, I know that this is a case of different sense in which "Campbellite" is understood. 

Orthodox Bishop Hilarion Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."

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EastTN | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, May 7 2022 4:01 PM

MJ. Smith:

xnman:
Church of Christ  is a stand alone....  Most people don't understand this... but it is true none the less.

Regardless of a church group's self-definition, the classification must be based on generally known, objective criteria. If it were not, Catholics, Eastern Orthodox, the Armenian Church, Oriental Orthodox, and the Church of the East -- and most of the administrative subdivisions would insist on simply being called the Church -- which may be "true" but is not helpful for those trying to find a particular church in a very long list.

Why did I put "true" in quotation marks? to emphasize that saying "most people don't understand this ... but it is true none the less" appears to be a theological statement, if I read your intent correctly. From growing up in the Church of Christ, I know that this is a case of different sense in which "Campbellite" is understood. 

I would also strongly urge you to not classify the Churches of Christ as "Campbellite and Millerist." There are several reasons for this.  First, the term "Campbellite" was a pejorative term that outsiders used to label the movement, and is still considered offensive by most members of the churches of Christ. (Though you will sometimes hear it used as an inside joke, just as some other groups will repurpose what were originally epithets for their own purposes - while still being offended if outsiders use the same term against them.) Second, it oversimplifies the historical origins of the churches of Christ by ignoring the role that Barton Stone and others played in the development of the movement. Third, lumping the churches of Christ in with Millerism makes no sense either theologically or historically.

Finally, there are much better terms to use. The ones I tend to use are "American Restoration Movement" and "Stone/Campbell Movement." Both describe the historical roots of the churches of Christ in a neutral manner, are widely used in the historical literature on the movement, and - in contrast to "Campbellite" - are considered inoffensive by members of the churches of Christ (and the Disciples of Christ, and the Christian Churches and Churches of Christ).

I'm sure it wasn't your intent, MJ, but I personally find the use of the term "Campbellite" quite offensive.

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MJ. Smith | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, May 7 2022 4:31 PM

I never use the term Campbellite but was unaware it was offensive. I've consistently used Stone-Campbell movement. I've always thought of American Restoration Movement as a broader topic. It was the handling of the LDS, Unification, and Worldwide Church of God that concerned me enough to create this thread. To tell the truth, when I copied the Miscellaneous section from Wikipedia to give an example of a more appropriate classification. It didn't occur to me that someone would object to the movement not being shown as no mainstream Protestant groups are shown. In copying the heading under which Wikipedia put the movement, I intended no endorsement -- merely indicating where to find the churches referenced by xnman. 

The fuller Wikipedia entry:

Campbellite and Millerist[edit]

Main articles: AdventismRestorationism, and Restoration movement See also: Christian primitivism and Second Great Awakening

Adventism was a result from the Restoration movement, which sought to restore Christianity along the lines of what was known about the apostolic early Church which Restorationists saw as the search for a more pure and ancient form of the religion.[74] This idea is also called Christian Primitivism. Following the Stone-Campbell Restoration MovementWilliam Miller preached the end of the world and the second coming of Christ in 1843/44. Some followers after the failed prediction became the Adventists or Campbellites, while other splinter groups eventually became Apocalyptic Restorationists. Many of the splinter groups did not subscribe to trinitarian theologies. Well known Restorationist groups related in some way to Millerism include the Jehovah's WitnessesWorld Mission Society Church of God, the Restored Church of God, and the Kingdom of Jesus Christ. There are a little over 7 million Restorationist Christians.

Stone-Campbell Restoration movement[edit]

Thanks for the heads-up on the offensive nature of Campbellite - someone should let Wikipedia know.

Orthodox Bishop Hilarion Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."

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EastTN | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, May 7 2022 8:07 PM

M.J., thanks for the gracious response.  I was aware that you typically use Stone-Campbell movement, which I appreciate. Grabbing what Wikipedia has makes sense for a start - I do that on a lot of things.  Unfortunately, I think Wikipedia has gotten this topic a bit garbled.  An ongoing issue is that many Wikipedia editors want to group together all groups that claim to be restoring in some way the New Testament church as "Restorationist." That makes for some very odd bedfellows that have no real historical or theological connection with each other.

So for instance, what you quote has: "Following the Stone-Campbell Restoration MovementWilliam Miller preached the end of the world and the second coming of Christ in 1843/44. Some followers after the failed prediction became the Adventists or Campbellites, while other splinter groups eventually became Apocalyptic Restorationists."  Those two sentences have the Stone-Campbell movement coming first, then William Miller, then after his prediction fails the group splinters and at that point some of them become "Campbellites"?

I spent a lot of time trying to clean up some of the American Restoration Movement articles on Wikipedia a number of years ago. Perhaps I should get back engaged with that community again. It was a real time sink, though.

Anyway, as always, I do appreciate the thoughtful way you respond.

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Sean Boisen | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, May 9 2022 11:16 AM

Thanks all: there's still quite a bit of work we want to do on the hierarchy in Factbook, including belief groups. These will be useful contributions once that work is undertaken. 

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xnman | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, May 10 2022 7:55 PM

EastTN:

So for instance, what you quote has: "Following the Stone-Campbell Restoration MovementWilliam Miller preached the end of the world and the second coming of Christ in 1843/44. Some followers after the failed prediction became the Adventists or Campbellites, while other splinter groups eventually became Apocalyptic Restorationists."  Those two sentences have the Stone-Campbell movement coming first, then William Miller, then after his prediction fails the group splinters and at that point some of them become "Campbellites"?

I spent a lot of time trying to clean up some of the American Restoration Movement articles on Wikipedia a number of years ago. Perhaps I should get back engaged with that community again. It was a real time sink, though.

Anyway, as always, I do appreciate the thoughtful way you respond.

I agree.  And I appreciate your insight.

All too often in religion, people paint with a wide brush...thinking they can "clump" religions together and all is ok... Such is the case with the term Campbellites... etc. When, bottom line.... doing that can be offensive.

Thanks again.

xn = Christan  man=man -- Acts 11:26 "....and the disciples were first called Christians in Antioch".

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MJ. Smith | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, May 11 2022 12:34 AM

It is important to remember that in topics as broad as Christian denomination that the classification is based on an outsider's view (etic) rather than the insider's view (emic).

Orthodox Bishop Hilarion Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."

Posts 1206
xnman | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, May 11 2022 12:44 PM

Shucks.... left out again!  Sad

and life just keep going on... lol

xn = Christan  man=man -- Acts 11:26 "....and the disciples were first called Christians in Antioch".

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