Just a thought, but controversial I am sure.

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Mike Childs | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, May 8 2022 9:33 PM

I also appreciate MJ's bumps.  I am not bothered by anyone's bumps.

"In all cases, the Church is to be judged by the Scripture, not the Scripture by the Church," John Wesley

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Keep Smiling 4 Jesus :) | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, May 8 2022 9:54 PM

MJ. Smith:

Keep Smiling 4 Jesus :):
The "Bump Thread" could be a list of Unanswered threads with links to threads needing attention review (easy to copy & paste for weekly bump).  A "Bump Thread" should avoid #'s & word changes being needed for weekly bumping (to bypass SPAM filtering that prevents the same reply from being posted many times).

Most of the unanswered threads do not need bumping -- they are suggestions, announcements, recommendations, free tools or downloads etc.

Agreed along with Unanswered threads having thread(s) to bump for helpful attention assistance (prior to being bumped).

MJ. Smith:

Keep Smiling 4 Jesus :):
My thought pondering likes idea of MJ. Smith changing to a single "Bump Thread" for weekly forum help attention bumping while hoping for future bumping not being needed.

Embedding the threads in another thread hides whether or not someone has already answered the question ... plus it is more effort to create and more prone to screw-up due to two instances of the forums being used concurrently (unless I make it even more more work). The workflow it requires in not acceptable to me, someone else would need to take over. I've very willing to (a) stop bumping threads, (b) to change when I bump threads, or (c) change how I do it if it has as simple and reliable workflow.

Once a thread has been "bumped", hidden is whether someone helpfully answered the question. Single "Bump Thread" provides opportunity to see original thread(s) have no replies: could be bumped again in "Bump Thread" OR use a different "bump" method (especially for threads best answered by Faithlife).

Identifying thread(s) to bump remains the same.

Current "bump" workflow can be done using one tab in one browser window.

Single "Bump Thread" workflow would be easier using two tabs (ideally in two windows for side by side viewing): one for identifying thread(s) with one for composing "bump" reply. When a thread deserves "bump" attention, copy forum & thread title: e.g.

General>Just a thought, but controversial I am sure.

followed by paste into "bump" reply composition.

When done identifying thread(s) to "bump", then preview "bump" reply to verify no accidental double pasting. Optional is comparing list of threads to "bump" with Unanswered threads in the other tab so can remove any thread(s) that recently received a reply.

Seem to remember many sets of "bumped" threads have not had an intervening forum post due to the weekend timing of "bump" processing. Hence likelihood of removing a line from "bump" reply is small.

FYI: my forum replies often have more than one tab open, which is quite useful for copying quote(s) from several replies for pasting into a single reply. Also use tab(s) for Wiki link(s) and product description link(s). Long time ago, I learned to Preview my forum reply before Post: my fingers can flip flop stuff Embarrassed so rereading helps reduce my typing goofs.

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MJ. Smith | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, May 8 2022 10:57 PM

I see no reason to argue the point. For me, the workflow has more steps and is more error prone than my current workflow. I occasionally have multiple tabs open to a single site but it is not my preferred layout with one exception - indexing cookbooks for Eat Your Books.

Orthodox Bishop Hilarion Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."

Posts 2864
mab | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, May 9 2022 12:38 AM

I appreciate those who care about serving here. The forums have made it possible to make using Logos less bewildering as it has transformed into a real powerhouse. 

Bumps are fine. Maybe we need a better protocol to flag or direct so people can get more timely answers. I just don't know what that might mean. Can we make a flag/highlight appear on questions that need answers after so many days/hours? 

The mind of man is the mill of God, not to grind chaff, but wheat. Thomas Manton | Study hard, for the well is deep, and our brains are shallow. Richard Baxter

Posts 231
1Cor10:31 | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, May 9 2022 9:23 AM

Mike Childs:

I also appreciate MJ's bumps.  I am not bothered by anyone's bumps.

YesYesYes

Posts 19719
Rosie Perera | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, May 9 2022 12:48 PM

FL used to have a dedicated employee whose role included checking for threads that had received no answers yet and looking for an answer or finding someone within the company who could answer it. It's a bummer that they don't have the bandwidth to more actively monitor the forums the way they used to. A few of the employees do come here regularly and check for messages in their wheelhouse and respond, but it still leaves a lot of messages which MVPs and other users can't answer or have overlooked.

Posts 738
Frank Sauer | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, May 9 2022 2:14 PM

Sadly, this "feeling" for some in the forum is understandable. Years ago, I tried to be involved and help out new users. However, if you dated to question any decision by Faithlife, then Logos - the attacks came with no consistent addressing from Faithlife. It still happens at times...

The best move to eliminate a lot of the issue in this thread would be Faithlife upgrading the forum software so that users can hide all forums that have no interest. That way the topic threads would be less likely to be buried amongst  every other post.

Then in regards to the unwelcome nature... Removing the consistent offenders as is done in other forums would help, as well as not allowing the consistent offenders to be considered MVPs

Pater Noster:

EDIT: Post Deleted.

I am not going to come here anymore, it feels like an unwelcome place to me. It irks me that I posted a general opinion about bump threads, that is a common theme across many forums. It is considered a legitimate issue, as mods of other forums have express guidelines against it. I knew some/many would disagree which is why I tried to temper my awareness of the issue by saying "Controversial". I mentioned no one by name. I did not suggest debate. I have no problem with others saying "I disagree..", I wanted to see how many feel one way or the other. 

Everyone can do what they want of course. For me, subject closed. Goodbye.

Posts 1489
David Wanat | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, May 9 2022 3:56 PM

Bumps have never really bothered me (except when there's no response from the staff Wink. Usually, if a topic headline doesn't appeal to me, I just don't bother clicking on it. 

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MJ. Smith | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, May 9 2022 4:07 PM

I do wish that those who enjoy attacking me would simply bypass any post by me. That is what I do with the less-than-a-handful of forum members that I find myself unable to communicate effectively with ... and I am willing to bet they don't even notice.  And not being noticed is my idea of a win-win solution.

Orthodox Bishop Hilarion Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."

Posts 1686
DMB | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, May 9 2022 4:24 PM

MJ. Smith:

I do wish that those who enjoy attacking me would simply bypass any post by me. 

I know this sounds pretty thin, but it sure looks like the road from Jericho to Jerusalem, folks needing help get one chance only. Good Samaritans need to not inconvenience the itchy-fingered travelers who can't resist being annoyed.

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Keep Smiling 4 Jesus :) | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, May 9 2022 5:50 PM

MJ. Smith:
For me, the workflow has more steps and is more error prone than my current workflow.

Appreciate workflow thoughts so would you like me to start doing a single "Bump thread" with replies for forum help attention ?

Single "Bump thread" enables forum users to follow thread for email about help attention: hoping for followers who pray for helpful replies & those who serve as Good Samaritans by providing helpful replies & some who are Faithlife employees.

Caveat is single "Bump thread" being a bit more noisy than no bumping desire, which started this thread.

Observation is an effective workflow for one person can be error prone in the hands of someone else, yet God has a special & appropriate place for every person. Good Samaritan was the third "bump" attention for a hurting person.

MJ. Smith:
It not being noticed is my idea of a win-win solution.

Ideal win-win is "bump" for helpful attention not being needed as users & Faithlife employees are ongoing good neighbors.

Thankful for many friendly forum & Faithlife discussions: have learned a lot plus have a lot to learn.

Keep Smiling Smile

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MJ. Smith | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, May 9 2022 6:26 PM

Keep Smiling 4 Jesus :):
Appreciate workflow thoughts so would you like me to start doing a single "Bump thread" with replies for forum help attention ?

I certainly will let you try it but I am convinced it is a poor solution for the following reasons:

  • We've heard nothing from Faithlife indicating buy-in from their staff. Given that different personnel are involved with different forums, losing the forum specific data may e a serious problem
  • We've had some positive feedback in this thread but no indication that the people who actually answer the bumped threads are willing to keep navigating back to the single thread ... an extra step compared to simply going through new posts in a forum with no need to distinguish between bumped and unbumped posts
  • As a matter of design principles, I rarely find that inserting an intermediate document is rarely a solution in situations similar to this, especially when it requires a change in workflow on both ends - the person doing the bumping and the person responding to the bumped post ... especially when it breaks a group out into a "special processing" category that had previously simply been part of the normal process.

Orthodox Bishop Hilarion Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."

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Mike Binks | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, May 10 2022 1:51 AM

MJ. Smith:
Keep Smiling 4 Jesus :):
Appreciate workflow thoughts so would you like me to start doing a single "Bump thread" with replies for forum help attention ?

I like it just the way it is. Most times I have time to skim through the bumps. Makes for a relaxing Sunday Afternoon distraction. If I am pushed for time I can lump them together and mark them read.

tootle pip

Mike

How to get logs and post them. (now tagging post-apocalyptic fiction as current affairs)

Posts 191
Al Het | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, May 10 2022 3:54 PM

I don't normally respond on these types of threads, but I feel compelled.

I'm really surprised that the responses you got made you feel unwelcome in the forum.  I don't think anyone said anything at all that was derogatory toward you, or toward what you brought up.  One person talked about why SHE does it, which I would think keeps perfectly with what you said you were hoping for, getting other people's opinions about "bumping" on this forum

I have seen forums where this can be a real problem.  For me personally, I've never felt like it was here.  It is only on rare occasions that I've seen people bump their own threads, and then only when they are looking for help.

As far as bumping someone else's thread, I've always seen it as a good thing, someone helping another person out, because they hadn't yet gotten an answer.

Just my opinion.  I do realize I'm not on this forum as often as many others.

Posts 191
Al Het | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, May 10 2022 4:03 PM

MJ. Smith:
If the user base wants me to stop, I will. In fact I have already taken a hiatus and been asked to continue.

Mark me among the forum members that would rather you didn't quit bumping.

Long ago, the first time I noticed you doing it, I remember thinking it was a nice thing to do.  When people don't get responses, I think there is often a conflicting sense of, "do I bump my thread, and look a little pushy, or do I let it go."  

So, one vote to keep bumping.

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Keep Smiling 4 Jesus :) | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, May 10 2022 6:54 PM

MJ. Smith:

Keep Smiling 4 Jesus :):
Appreciate workflow thoughts so would you like me to start doing a single "Bump thread" with replies for forum help attention ?

I certainly will let you try it but I am convinced it is a poor solution for the following reasons:

Appreciate reasoning as a single "Bump" thread looks different than current "bump" for help. Both approaches are viable. The best win-win situation is weekend "bumping" for helpful attention not being needed. Below is a single "Bump" thread prototype for friendly discussion (includes three recent "bump" threads), whose subsequent replies by forum users will be respected for "bump" approach.

Please Help Faithlife Forum users

Please Help Faithlife Forum users whose assistance request is waiting - Bump 10 May 2022

General > Missing sermons in John Piper Sermon Archives

General > Working With Sermon Archives

Logos 9 Desktop App > Adding fonts to Media Tool

Logos 9 Desktop App > BUG: Jewish and Christian Scriptures; Chapter Title Preview Broken

한국어 (Korean) > 만들기 설교 줄바꿈 문제

Português > Como imprimir o que fazemos no canvas?

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MJ. Smith | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, May 10 2022 7:20 PM

Yes, I had understood correctly what you were proposing but I am not sure that you understand my concerns which are based on managing a computer system for payroll/personnel for > 30,000 payees from students to medical professors in Saudi Arabia (getting pay to all of them on the same day) implemented in everything from COBOL legacy code to the first web application for the University. Put another way, think well over a billion-dollar annual payroll more than twenty years ago. Among the rules I learned from experience:

  • do not make something require special processing if the integrated process is already working; at most change the selection process - something we can't do on the third-party forum software
  • do not require two screens when one works; each additional screen increases the workflow complexity and the error rate of processing
  • do not change a process in a way that hides important information - in this case, whether or not someone else has already responded to the thread

Although implementation has changed significantly, the basic rules of user interfaces has not. One employee had a graduate degree in user interface from Stanford, so my experience was not the blind leading the blind. So, you need to convince me (and others) that the Faithlife forum community is sufficiently different from the normal user mix to justify the violation of these basic design rules.

Orthodox Bishop Hilarion Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."

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xnman | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, May 10 2022 7:41 PM

Now I know my problem... or at least one of them.... 

I didn't go to Sanford!!! I just went to North Central U. and DePaul U... in Chicago!  Shucks!

I did work with Cobol.....  didn't like it... moved to Fortran... then C... then SQl... Asp, Prolog..

And now... I can't even make Search in Logos work ....  Yep... wish I had gone to Sanford... lol

Geeked

xn = Christan  man=man -- Acts 11:26 "....and the disciples were first called Christians in Antioch".

Barney Fife is my hero! He only uses an abacus with 14 rows!

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MJ. Smith | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, May 10 2022 8:19 PM

xnman:
Now I know my problem

Completely off topic ... and so on. If I'd known you wanted to mock Stanford, I'd have pointed out. . .Unfortunately, I don't take kindly to mockery -- period -- and my patience has worn thin tonight. . .

PS. My college-professor grandfather was a DePaul graduate circa early 1890's.

Orthodox Bishop Hilarion Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."

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Keep Smiling 4 Jesus :) | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, May 11 2022 12:51 AM

MJ. Smith:
So, you need to convince me (and others) that the Faithlife forum community ...

Forum software user interface provides the boundaries for discussing "bump" (Bring Up My Post) options.

Current "bump" process replies in a thread, which causes thread removal from forum Unanswered Posts. This thread started after a set of "bump" replies appeared in recent forum Topics threads. The "bump" reply requests attention with hope for a later on-topic helpful reply, which has happened in a number of forum threads (albeit reading a "bump" thread skips over "bump" to follow thread topic). Several forum users have asked what is a "bump" ? Also current forum software for reducing SPAM requires reply text being different so forum user interface interaction requires "bump" interpretation.

Proposed "bump" thread Please Help Faithlife Forum users (in the General forum) avoids SPAM filter disallowing repeated posts as every reply would have different list for "bump" attention. Threads being "bumped" remain in forum Unanswered Posts so those thread(s) can easily be "bumped" again. The "bump" threads that need reply from Faithlife can be marked (my oops Embarrassed for not prototyping an example). Single thread Please Help Faithlife Forum users enables some Faithlife employees to quietly follow (via email so a "bump" reply could be read & forwarded within Faithlife Corporation, hopefully resulting in a helpful public reply). Primary downside to thread Please Help Faithlife Forum users is opening the latest post so can click a link to read a "bump" thread (alternative is using forum Unanswered Posts to find threads needing helpful reply). Recent forum Topics would have one "bump" for thread reply (instead of a set).

Both "bump" processes are viable using existing forum user interface. From replies in this thread, preferred "bump" time is the weekend.

FYI: this thread caused me to review "bump" process along with considering a viable alternative using the existing forum user interface. Unknown is which process would take longer as current "bump" process has to find acceptable words for forum posting (SPAM filter) along with posting in every "bump" thread. Composing a list of "bump" threads has one reply to post, but adds a click for user interaction (if "bump" reply is used to open a thread being "bumped").

MJ. Smith:
Completely off topic but my college required everyone to learn Fortran, I taught Assembler for IBM and CDC, RPG, COBOL, ALGOL, PL/1, worked in Fortran, COBOL, C++, Java, HTML, XML, CSS, Prolog, Visual Basic, Python ... and so on.

Decades ago, an IBM utility was named IEFBR14 that had two assembler lines (on MVS/SP):

  • SR 15,15
  • BR 14

IBM utility name embedded the second assembler line, which influenced my naming preference to be logical (& boring).

When using punched cards was unwise to upset mainframe operators as the card deck had to be feed correctly for proper execution (rigid user interface). A valuable lesson learned from a mainframe operator was knowing when getting the job done was more important than perfection. A retired Senior Master Sergeant had a motto: "whether the job be big or small, do it right or not at all".

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