What must I do to be saved? Research

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This post has 128 Replies | 6 Followers

Posts 28
JBR | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, May 17 2022 7:07 AM | Locked

GaoLu:
Analogies break down, but to be married there is typically attraction, relationship, ceremony, family, etc.  None of those alone "cause" marriage.  They are marriage. Salvation, in some ways, may be similar. 

Yes, analogies really break down, because that one is culturally dependent.

For God and For Neighbor

Posts 224
1Cor10:31 | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, May 17 2022 1:36 PM | Locked

How about extracting the minimum set of beliefs needed for salvation from the thief on the cross next to Jesus? He definitely didn't have baptism by water. He did no good works after conversion. He simply believed that Jesus is God and repented of his sins. 

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NB.Mick | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, May 17 2022 2:37 PM | Locked

1Cor10:31:

How about extracting the minimum set of beliefs needed for salvation from the thief on the cross next to Jesus? He definitely didn't have baptism by water. He did no good works after conversion. He simply believed that Jesus is God and repented of his sins. 

I think you are implicitly making several things here that I personally regard as potential pitfalls for people researching the question. This may or may not lead to wrong conclusions, but it merits at least to discuss some of those more explicitly.

  • The question in this thread asked "what must I do" (the rich young ruler phrased it much the same) - your answer talks about a "minimum set of beliefs needed". Those are related things, for sure, but they are not the same.
  • The story of the thief on the cross is a narrative which we can understand as an descriptive example. The research definitely asks for something like a prescriptive ruleset, definitions, requirements, causes and effects, boundaries, standards. This all is lacking from the thief's story - even the little bit you extracted ("he believed that Jesus is God and repented of his sins") is not clearly stated, but inferred from the story. 
  • The narrative of the thief is a moving story - but even if you are correct in your description of it, it is a very extreme situation we are witnessing here. In other words: This story doesn't lend itself very easily to be used as a general example of how things are or should be in "standard" situations. Especially the aspects you shortly discuss, baptism by water and good works after conversion, were most probably something we can't make generalizations based on this situation, were the thief was unable to be baptized by water and literally bound to die, so incapable to do good works. Narratives in Acts seem to suggest that water baptism and good works were usual for new believers.

Don't get me wrong - there certainly is a theological case to be made that one doesn't have to do anything except to believe a "minimum set" of things or rather to put our trust in Jesus, which is what the thief did. I just think that this case can't be made as a normative answer that relates to everybody in general, based on this special narrative alone.   

Running Logos 9 latest (beta) version on Win 10

Posts 1147
xnman | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, May 17 2022 8:00 PM | Locked

I originally posted something here... but after thinking about it.... I felt it was too much like a debate and tried to delete it... and couldn't... so I just changed it.

If you read it.... I apologize and will be more careful about it in the future.

Thanks.

xn = Christan  man=man -- Acts 11:26 "....and the disciples were first called Christians in Antioch".

Posts 1147
xnman | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, May 17 2022 8:16 PM | Locked

Puddin’:

John 3.3–5 as obeyed in Acts 2.38 is the biblical plan of salvation—including the oral invocation of the name of Jesus Christ (contra the mere “authority of Christ” argument).

At the risk of appearing self-promoting I attempt to exegetically address the usual objections to this position in the blog link below (e.g., the causal vs. the purpose argument regarding “eis” in Acts 2.38).

https://apostolicacademics.com/

Read your article on the net...."https://apostolicacademics.com/"  Good article... thanks for sharing.

xn = Christan  man=man -- Acts 11:26 "....and the disciples were first called Christians in Antioch".

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MJ. Smith | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, May 17 2022 8:43 PM | Locked

xnman:
But maybe I have missed it.... which could happen

Most of your post is off-topic and theological in nature. Please keep on topic and non-confrontational. Many of us want to be able to ask theological questions for information. If they go to far off topic or become confrontational, they get shut down. Post this was a response to has been rewritten.

Orthodox Bishop Hilarion Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."

Posts 1147
xnman | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, May 17 2022 8:47 PM | Locked

MJ. Smith:

xnman:
But maybe I have missed it.... which could happen

Most of your post is off-topic and theological in nature. Please keep on topic and non-confrontational. Many of us want to be able to ask theological questions for information. If they go to far off topic or become confrontational, they get shut down. 

I figured you caught me....  if you will look back... I did try to delete the post.... and couldn't so I just changed it because I thought it was too confrontational ....  My apologies. 

xn = Christan  man=man -- Acts 11:26 "....and the disciples were first called Christians in Antioch".

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MJ. Smith | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, May 17 2022 9:58 PM | Locked

Thanks - I know it can be hard to not respond. I also have to go back and delete posts. 

Orthodox Bishop Hilarion Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."

Posts 9023
DAL | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, May 18 2022 4:39 AM | Locked

xnman:

I originally posted something here... but after thinking about it.... I felt it was too much like a debate and tried to delete it... and couldn't... so I just changed it.

If you read it.... I apologize and will be more careful about it in the future.

Thanks.

The only advise I can give you, from experience, is that you need to exercise self-control. You will never convert anybody here in the forms because this is not the place to evangelize. I used to be like you with a sword in my hand all the time Trying to contend for the faith once for all delivered onto the Saints, but then I realize I was not contending for the faith, I was just being contentious and that doesn’t help any cause (MJ and others can confirm what I’m telling you).  I also realize that attacking people is not the way to get people to listen, so I had to do away with some bad habits.  I was the first one to bring up catholics and call out others for not calling themselves Christians only.  It’s a bad habit that is more common in the churches of Christ than you might think.  
I’m not saying give up your convictions or become pluralistic or ecumenical in thinking, but there’s a place and a time for everything; and the forums are not that place.  The forums are to ask questions about the software and maybe to ask about some theological points of view for research purposes, but without attacking each other or debating about who’s right or who’s wrong.

Remember, when you feel tempted to just go at it and set people straight, just take a deep breath and exercise self control ๐Ÿ‘๐Ÿ˜๐Ÿ‘Œ You’ll feel better and won’t get frustrated as much ๐Ÿ˜‰

3 John 2,

DAL

Posts 5922
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Mike Binks | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, May 18 2022 8:29 AM | Locked

Once I saw this guy on a bridge about to jump.


I said, ‘Don’t do it!’ He said, ‘Nobody loves me.
I said, ‘God loves you. Do you believe in God?’ He said, ‘Yes.’

I said, ‘Are you a Christian or a Jew?’ He said, ‘A Christian.’
I said, ‘Me, too! Protestant or Catholic?’ He said, ‘Protestant.’
I said, ‘Me, too! What franchise?’ He said, ‘Baptist.’
I said, ‘Me, too! Northern Baptist or Southern Baptist?’ He said, ‘Northern Baptist.’
I said, ‘Me, too! Northern Conservative Baptist or Northern Liberal Baptist?’ He said, ‘Northern Conservative Baptist.’
I said, ‘Me, too! Northern Conservative Baptist Great Lakes Region, or Northern Conservative Baptist Eastern Region?’ He said, ‘Northern Conservative Baptist Great Lakes Region.’

I said, ‘Me, too! Northern Conservative Baptist Great Lakes Region Council of 1879, or Northern Conservative Baptist Great Lakes Region Council of 1912?’ He said, ‘Northern Conservative Baptist Great Lakes Region Council of 1912.’


I said, ‘Die, heretic!’ And I pushed him over.

tootle pip

Mike

How to get logs and post them. (now tagging post-apocalyptic fiction as current affairs)

Posts 197
Bill Coley | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, May 18 2022 12:26 PM | Locked

Excellent and instructive, Mike.

It's a well-established conspiracy theory that nothing good came out of the year 1912, not even for the Northern Conservative Great Lakes Region Councils, which was roundly criticized for thinking itself superior to the others Great Lakes Councils.

Posts 5972
SineNomine | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, May 18 2022 1:33 PM | Locked

DAL:
4.  Catholic

If you have https://ref.ly/logosres/bblclcthlcslvtn?ref=Page.p+1, I recommend taking a look. 

Please use descriptive thread titles to attract helpful posts & save others time. Thanks!

Posts 35813
Forum MVP
MJ. Smith | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, May 18 2022 1:49 PM | Locked

DAL:
(MJ and others can confirm what I’m telling you). ... I was the first one to bring up catholics

I'll confirm there was a period when DAL was a pain but like nearly everyone who brings up catholics what he showed was his ignorance. A little knowledge is a dangerous thing and usually boomerangs. DAL has become an important part of the forum community - speaking on what he actually knows.

DAL:
call out others for not calling themselves Christians only

Just remember that people are stuck with what society outside the church calls them - Roman Catholic is not a term members of the Church would chose for themselves - it is a term imposed on us by outsiders and, therefore, what we use to communicate clearly. I knew briefly an elderly Armenian who referred to herself as simply "Christian" ... she found it humorous that in America she was always asked whether she was of the Orthodox or Catholic branch. Such a question would be absurd in Armenia.

Orthodox Bishop Hilarion Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."

Posts 35813
Forum MVP
MJ. Smith | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, May 18 2022 1:51 PM | Locked

DAL:
(MJ and others can confirm what I’m telling you). ... I was the first one to bring up catholics

I'll confirm there was a period when DAL was a pain but like nearly everyone who brings up catholics what he showed was his ignorance. A little knowledge is a dangerous thing and usually boomerangs. DAL has become an important part of the forum community - speaking on what he actually knows.

DAL:
call out others for not calling themselves Christians only

Just remember that people are stuck with what society outside the church calls them - Roman Catholic is not a term members of the Church would chose for themselves - it is a term imposed on us by outsiders and, therefore, what we use to communicate clearly. I knew briefly an elderly Armenian who referred to herself as simply "Christian" ... she found it humorous that in America she was always asked whether she was of the Orthodox or Catholic branch. Such a question would be absurd in Armenia. [Note they are part of the group that formed to create the Oriental Orthodox Churches in the 1950's.]

Orthodox Bishop Hilarion Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."

Posts 5972
SineNomine | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, May 18 2022 1:56 PM | Locked

DAL:
(MJ and others can confirm what I’m telling you).

Yup. I quite like "DAL 2.0" though! YesYes

DAL:
Remember, when you feel tempted to just go at it and set people straight, just take a deep breath and exercise self control ๐Ÿ‘๐Ÿ˜๐Ÿ‘Œ You’ll feel better and won’t get frustrated as much ๐Ÿ˜‰

I can testify to that myself too.

Please use descriptive thread titles to attract helpful posts & save others time. Thanks!

Posts 9023
DAL | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, May 18 2022 1:57 PM | Locked

SineNomine:

DAL:
4.  Catholic

If you have https://ref.ly/logosres/bblclcthlcslvtn?ref=Page.p+1, I recommend taking a look. 

Yes, I have it.  I’ll look at it ๐Ÿ‘

Posts 428
danwdoo | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, May 18 2022 11:58 PM | Locked

I come from a Baptist background so label my answer as you see fit. I would answer the question this way:

We are saved only through genuine faith in Christ Jesus (Galatians), that faith being of a type which always results in good works and fruit (James).

Posts 1147
xnman | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, May 19 2022 6:33 AM | Locked

I read through this thread.... and  to be truthful, don't you find it confusing as I do?

I mean, in kindness,   ... that we each "spout" our individual way to be saved and there seems to be several different ways.... and don't get me wrong... I respect each way... not trying to change anyone or anything.... 

But if I was an outsider... (non Jesus believing, non Christian, non Catholic.. etc) I wonder what I would think about all these different teachings that has been brought up so far?

Just wondering.... 

xn = Christan  man=man -- Acts 11:26 "....and the disciples were first called Christians in Antioch".

Posts 224
1Cor10:31 | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, May 19 2022 6:51 AM | Locked

xnman:

I read through this thread.... and  to be truthful, don't you find it confusing as I do?

I mean, in kindness,   ... that we each "spout" our individual way to be saved and there seems to be several different ways.... and don't get me wrong... I respect each way... not trying to change anyone or anything.... 

But if I was an outsider... (non Jesus believing, non Christian, non Catholic.. etc) I wonder what I would think about all these different teachings that has been brought up so far?

Just wondering.... 

It is not confusing one bit to see wide variation in beliefs.

God is the author of all truths (including scientific, moral,...). Since only God has infinite knowledge, only God has it right. Every one will eventually find out in Heaven that some aspects of their beliefs they held so dearly were wrong. Thus, when people describe their beliefs here, you should expect to get a wide variation in beliefs. If everyone agreed, then it is probably not true!

Posts 2705
David Thomas | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, May 19 2022 7:34 AM | Locked

DAL:
I’m not interested in who’s right, just on what you would tell me if I visited your church

How our NON-DENOMINATIONAL church would answer:

The Human Condition

    • We believe that mankind is created in the image of God (Genesis 1:27). However, as a result of the entrance of sin into the world (Romans 5:12), and our own sin, we are fallen and powerless to save ourselves (Romans 3:23-24).

Personal Response

    • We believe that it is necessary for each person to repent and receive Jesus Christ as Savior and Lord in order to be saved (John3:3-6, Romans 10:9-10).

Eternal Destiny

    • We believe that there will be resurrection of both the saved and the lost—the one to everlasting life, and the other to everlasting judgement (John 5:24-29, 1 Thessalonians 5:9, Revelation 20:11-15).

How our pastor (me) would use Logos to shape an answer:

Jesus (John 3) = experience 2nd birth or "believes in me"

Peter (Acts 2) - call on the name of the Lord {Does the "calling" precede or follow regeneration? Does "calling" involve 5 "steps"?}

John (John 3:16) = whoever believes

Paul (Rom 10:17) = hearing..the word of Christ.

(Matthew 16 & 18) = what is bound/loosed (by Church? By Peter [and successors?]? by Apostles? By believers?)

(1 Peter 1) = born again [sovereign act of Father/Christ] v.3; [mediated by Word of God] v.23.

faith

(Water) Baptism (part of "faith"? Following "faith"?

Making Disciples!  Logos Ecosystem = Logos8 on Microsoft Surface Pro 4 (Win10), Android app on tablet, FSB on iPhone, [deprecated] Windows App, Proclaim, Faithlife.com, FaithlifeTV via Connect subscription.

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