Vote to Update BAGD Citations to Point to BDAG

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This post has 19 Replies | 1 Follower

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Beloved Amodeo | Forum Activity | Posted: Tue, Jun 14 2022 10:12 AM

There is major support for having BAGD available for purchase in Logos. Although this is a popular request FL has not to date been able to fulfill this request.

The alternative is to update BAGD citations to BDAG. Vote here:

https://feedback.faithlife.com/boards/logos-resource-updates/posts/have-bagd-citations-be-updated-to-point-to-bdag 

Meanwhile, Jesus kept on growing wiser and more mature, and in favor with God and his fellow man.

International Standard Version. (2011). (Lk 2:52). Yorba Linda, CA: ISV Foundation.

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DMB | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Jun 14 2022 11:03 AM

Your suggestion certainly makes sense, since BDAG is a closer cousin to BAGD, then HALOT to Gesenius, as an example.

And it's probably the ONLY practical solution to the problem.

But in Logosian dreams, I wonder if BAGD would be the wish-come-true?

Posts 3579
Beloved Amodeo | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Jun 14 2022 11:10 AM

DMB:
But in Logosian dreams, I wonder if BAGD would be the wish-come-true?
It would certainly be for me, as commentaries as recent and local as EEC cite BAGD instead of or at least in addition to BDAG.

Meanwhile, Jesus kept on growing wiser and more mature, and in favor with God and his fellow man.

International Standard Version. (2011). (Lk 2:52). Yorba Linda, CA: ISV Foundation.

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DMB | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Jun 14 2022 11:22 AM

Beloved Amodeo:
recent and local as EEC cite BAGD i

Wow, that's interestng.  I'll avoid speculating why, but Faithlife's very own (almost) published commentary cites BAGD.

Posts 3579
Beloved Amodeo | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Jun 14 2022 11:45 AM

DMB:
Wow, that's interestng.
And it's not confined to a single scholar. Two of their scholars adopted this practice.

Meanwhile, Jesus kept on growing wiser and more mature, and in favor with God and his fellow man.

International Standard Version. (2011). (Lk 2:52). Yorba Linda, CA: ISV Foundation.

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Bobby Terhune | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Jun 14 2022 12:31 PM

BDAG just came out in 2000, so everything printed probably 2001 or 2002 and before is going to reference BAGD. So I personally think we need BAGD brought back to the Logos platform to correctly reference what the author intended to point out. I don't think changing the link destination to BDAG is the best option here, but others may disagree. 

I'm fortunate to have a Logos version of BAGD, but it has not had its tagging updated in over 20 years and it is still in LBXLLS format.

Posts 3579
Beloved Amodeo | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Jun 14 2022 12:43 PM

Bobby Terhune:

BDAG just came out in 2000, so everything printed probably 2001 or 2002 and before is going to reference BAGD. So I personally think we need BAGD brought back to the Logos platform to correctly reference what the author intended to point out. I don't think changing the link destination to BDAG is the best option here, but others may disagree. 

I'm fortunate to have a Logos version of BAGD, but it has not had its tagging updated in over 20 years and it is still in LBXLLS format.

I don't disagree with you Bobby, but, I've been major in the fight to see the return of BAGD and weary and worn from the fray. I don't see FL coming through for us on this and therefore would be happy if they adopted aligning/updating BAGD citations with BDAG entries.

My ample library has just North of 78,000 BAGD citations in over 663 resources. 

Meanwhile, Jesus kept on growing wiser and more mature, and in favor with God and his fellow man.

International Standard Version. (2011). (Lk 2:52). Yorba Linda, CA: ISV Foundation.

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Beloved Amodeo | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Jun 14 2022 4:48 PM

FL sends us a message. Not Now! What do we say in response?

Meanwhile, Jesus kept on growing wiser and more mature, and in favor with God and his fellow man.

International Standard Version. (2011). (Lk 2:52). Yorba Linda, CA: ISV Foundation.

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MJ. Smith | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Jun 14 2022 5:54 PM

Beloved Amodeo:
Now! What do we say in response?

Congratulate them? Sorry, but I can't support changing the links to point to a different resource i.e. pointing to something other than what the author pointed to. However, having the Lookup function in the context menu make the conversion would be quite acceptable.

Orthodox Bishop Hilarion Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."

Posts 3579
Beloved Amodeo | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Jun 14 2022 6:16 PM

MJ. Smith:
I can't support changing the links to point to a different resource i.e. pointing to something other than what the author pointed to. However, having the Lookup function in the context menu make the conversion would be quite acceptable.
I see your point and it is in keeping with Bobby Terhune's exception, however, I'm having difficulty envisioning how that works.

Are you saying in the Look Up portion of the context menu have BDAG be one of the choices that are presented? If so, anything that lends itself to providing us with information at the lexical level is a welcome addition to what we are now presented with.

Meanwhile, Jesus kept on growing wiser and more mature, and in favor with God and his fellow man.

International Standard Version. (2011). (Lk 2:52). Yorba Linda, CA: ISV Foundation.

MacBook Pro macOS Big Sur 11.6 1TB SSD 

Posts 3579
Beloved Amodeo | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Jun 14 2022 6:40 PM

Some time ago, I spoke with University of Chicago Press and they indicated that Logos is not constrained by them from releasing BAGD. And indeed when you select a hyperlink you are directed to a page in Logos that announces that you don't have a license to view the resource. But, if you try to obtain one you land in never never land.

I would be most happy if they would provide us with BAGD and bring it up to date!

Meanwhile, Jesus kept on growing wiser and more mature, and in favor with God and his fellow man.

International Standard Version. (2011). (Lk 2:52). Yorba Linda, CA: ISV Foundation.

MacBook Pro macOS Big Sur 11.6 1TB SSD 

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MJ. Smith | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Jun 14 2022 9:55 PM

Beloved Amodeo:
Are you saying in the Look Up portion of the context menu have BDAG be one of the choices that are presented?

Exactly

Orthodox Bishop Hilarion Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."

Posts 2445
Joseph Turner | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Jun 15 2022 6:00 AM

I proposed what I thought was a win/win solution here, but obviously that wasn't acceptable.  

With MJ, I am firmly against the proposal to link BAGD references to BDAG.  Since BDAG is an updated version of BAGD, there are references to entries in BAGD that have been changed or updated in BDAG, so academically, they are not the same citation and are not interchangeable.  Not only would this not help the BAGD situation, but it would make every link to BDAG suspect, hurting its academic integrity as implemented by Logos in such a scenario.

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Veli Voipio | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Jun 15 2022 6:50 AM

Almost four years ago I suggested a workaround,

It is not perfect, but worth trying:

Thread: https://community.logos.com/forums/t/148119.aspx?PageIndex=2 in the last comment.

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DMB | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Jun 15 2022 7:04 AM

Joseph Turner:
proposed what I thought was a win/win solution here, but obviously that wasn't acceptable.  

Not detracting from Beloved's thinking, but Joseph's idea seems to me, to be a win-win-win (publisher, Faithlife, customer).

"My solution would be to allow those who have purchased the newer editions, in this case BDAG, to be allowed to purchase the older edition as well.  This way, the publisher is guaranteed the proceeds from the newer edition, and the additional proceeds from the older edition are icing on the cake."

The only downside that I can see, is Faithlife might not want to tag BAGD, since they're already tagging BDAG.  But I'd think it'd be like Gesenius ... a historical lexicon of interest to some.  And as I understand it, BAGD is already in Logos.

Posts 600
Bobby Terhune | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Jun 15 2022 9:02 AM

They have already tagged BAGD, but it just hasn't been updated to current standards, Like i said before it's still in LBXLLS format. Right now it mainly needs updated tagging for secondary references such as the Loeb titles, church fathers and so forth.

As it is right now BAGD tagging works with the right click menu. 

Posts 1680
DMB | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Jun 15 2022 9:18 AM

Bobby Terhune:

Right now it mainly needs updated tagging for secondary references such as the Loeb titles, church fathers and so forth.

If I worked in FL product-markup, this would be why I'd 'move on'. There's more pressing needs for OL tagging than BAGD. And probably more go-back tagging for new datasets.

Now, just selling the oldie ... that'd work.

Posts 3579
Beloved Amodeo | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Jun 15 2022 9:41 AM

DMB:

Bobby Terhune:

Right now it mainly needs updated tagging for secondary references such as the Loeb titles, church fathers and so forth.

If I worked in FL product-markup, this would be why I'd 'move on'. There's more pressing needs for OL tagging than BAGD. And probably more go-back tagging for new datasets.

Now, just selling the oldie ... that'd work.

Obviously for FL this issue is not a priority. The most straightforward path is to release BAGD. FL has not committed to any partial solution. BAGD is a significant scholarly Greek lexicon with tens of thousands of citations in major resources and continued relevance. This thread is another representation of customer support for some kind of redress for the BAGD citations in their libraries.

Despite my request for redirecting BAGD citations to BDAG my true North is to release BAGD to us now!

Meanwhile, Jesus kept on growing wiser and more mature, and in favor with God and his fellow man.

International Standard Version. (2011). (Lk 2:52). Yorba Linda, CA: ISV Foundation.

MacBook Pro macOS Big Sur 11.6 1TB SSD 

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Kyle G. Anderson | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Jun 15 2022 11:14 AM

In case this helps clarify things:

  • The only reason BAGD isn't sold is because we can't. If we could sell it, we would. We're actively working on trying to be able to sell it again. I don't have a timeline on that.
  • We don't want to redirect BAGD references to BDAG because they are two different reference works. Most BAGD references are to a page number which does not map directly to the pagination on BDAG. Further, the content found in BDAG is not the same as that BAGD. It's not a translation, it's an expansion and revision.
Posts 3579
Beloved Amodeo | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Jun 15 2022 11:31 AM

Kyle G. Anderson:

In case this helps clarify things:

  • The only reason BAGD isn't sold is because we can't. If we could sell it, we would. We're actively working on trying to be able to sell it again. I don't have a timeline on that.
  • We don't want to redirect BAGD references to BDAG because they are two different reference works. Most BAGD references are to a page number which does not map directly to the pagination on BDAG. Further, the content found in BDAG is not the same as that BAGD. It's not a translation, it's an expansion and revision.

Thank you, Kyle

Your response is very helpful. Happy to hear that FL is motivated to make BAGD available again. The reasoning regarding work arounds is understandable. And the lack of a timeline is consistent with general policy.

As there are significantly more citations in our libraries for BAGD than there are for BDAG and there is major interest in a satisfactory outcome on this. I hope FL will work extra hard to obtain what it needs to be able to offer BAGD to its customers once again.

Meanwhile, Jesus kept on growing wiser and more mature, and in favor with God and his fellow man.

International Standard Version. (2011). (Lk 2:52). Yorba Linda, CA: ISV Foundation.

MacBook Pro macOS Big Sur 11.6 1TB SSD 

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