How would you improve our search helps?

Page 1 of 3 (44 items) 1 2 3 Next >
This post has 43 Replies | 2 Followers

Posts 44
LogosEmployee
Mark Barnes (Faithlife) | Forum Activity | Posted: Tue, Jun 14 2022 4:57 PM

In Logos 9, we have Search Helps, which give you very basic instructions on how to type a search:

We also have search templates, which help you fill in the syntax for more complex searches:

I have two questions for you all:

  1. How often, if ever, do you use Search Helps and Search Templates
  2. Are there new templates you wish were included?

Thank you! Your responses will help us improve Logos for everyone.

Posts 36083
Forum MVP
MJ. Smith | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Jun 14 2022 6:08 PM

Mark Barnes:
How often, if ever, do you use Search Helps and Search Templates

I used the old cookbook style helps quite frequently as they essentially provided lists of the available options for grammatical roles, semantic roles, and other such niceties that I remember only the main options for. I understand the reason for switching to the more obvious template approach but it doesn't provide the quick reference that I used. I really wish both the cookbook and the templates were available. I do think the word, string, basic colon syntax need to be there for the "first time" users.

Mark Barnes:
Are there new templates you wish were included?

I'd have to go back through the forums to find the posts where I think "ah, that should be template" -- the requests that are more complex than the current templates, but come up over and over again with users other than the OP chiming in that the responses helped them as well. These tend to be of the "where does Jesus talk to the disciples about" or "what are the laws regarding" or "who are the descendants of"

EDIT: I would add a template for each label as remembering their parameters is nigh unto impossible. Plus it would remind people not to waste time building searches for information that Faithlife has already dug out for us.

Orthodox Bishop Hilarion Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."

Posts 1444
DMB | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Jun 14 2022 7:38 PM

Mark Barnes:
How often, if ever, do you use Search Helps and Search Templates

Just answering; I can't recall ever using them. Like MJ, I used the cookbook (and whence my most of my knowledge). Plus, I use the right-click menu, and then adjust the arguments. I rarely ever 'start cold'.  If I were improving, I'd look at the right-click > template adjusting (currently one or the other).

While you're considering input, you might consider the interface. I just took a couple screen shots to illustrate (V9-latest) ... imagine someone not that familiar:

and another ...

Posts 1208
xnman | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Jun 14 2022 8:13 PM

I am glad Search is being looked into!!!

I for one, seem to have lots of problems using Logos Search.. I'll admit it's me... but I find Search to be one of the most complicated of all Logos functions... I often go to WordSearch... or Google  and search for things...  

I have just (about 2 weeks now) started working with search templates ... trying to get search to work for me. But I see from the screen shot you posted... that my screen is different..  like ... I don't have all the templates that you do... which causes me to wonder... do I have to buy some "feature" or something that would give me more templates in Search? I would think Search would be the same for everyone from basic to most advance Logos packages....

14-06-2022-11-16-46

xn = Christan  man=man -- Acts 11:26 "....and the disciples were first called Christians in Antioch".

Posts 36083
Forum MVP
MJ. Smith | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Jun 14 2022 10:03 PM

xnman:
I would think Search would be the same for everyone from basic to most advance Logos packages....

No, most of the Bible related searches are not searches of the text of the resource but are on the Faithlife coding and datasets. If you don't have the dataset, you can search it. However, for a basic search I suspect all levels are pretty much the same.

Orthodox Bishop Hilarion Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."

Posts 1391
Sean | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Jun 14 2022 10:37 PM

As a theologian, my use of searches in Logos (as well as my view of them) is somewhat different. I generally don’t use super-complicated Bible searches and question the value of some of them (e.g., find every verse where the 5th character is yod that also contains an interrogative or some such). Sorry, but I don’t see what things like that are trying to accomplish.

I do try to use the Bible Browser frequently. I’m not always sure what is the best category or place to look for what I’m trying to find. For example, if I want to do searches for Bible references to “God the Father,” do I use the entry under senses (it only shows 8 uses) or preaching themes or topics or figurative language or what? I think Bible browser itself needs a detailed help file.

But as a theologian, I’m more often trying to search the 5,000+ non-Bible books in my library. I don’t know how to do much with them besides AND and OR operations. I don’t understand the different categories of headings or milestones or whatever I can use to limit searches. Can I limit a search so that it shows results that come only in the same paragraph or chapter? Can I limit a search to a specific author--not just searching in books by a specific author, but journal articles or dictionary entries or essays in multi-author works? Can I limit a search to just dictionaries and encyclopedias without creating a collection? I’m clueless as to what all I can do with these books in search and fear I’m missing out on a lot. I’d like to see templates that show every field that I can use in different kinds of books with examples.
There needs to be an extensive help file on searching non-Bible books.

Maybe there already is and I’m just looking in the wrong place, but I can’t find it.

Posts 25973
Forum MVP
Graham Criddle | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Jun 14 2022 10:43 PM

xnman:
But I see from the screen shot you posted... that my screen is different..  like ... I don't have all the templates that you do.

Your screenshot is from a Basic Search  whereas Mark's is from a Bible Search

Posts 1208
xnman | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Jun 15 2022 4:51 AM

Thanks Graham.   Yep.... one of these days I will learn this search things..... I will... I really will! 

And Sean --- Good point!  I do want a search that will search through every resource I have to find the information I am looking for. 

The following are just examples.....

Maybe something like....  [Author: Thomas B. Warren  ....  Search: Holy Spirit]  ----- then it would search all the resources I have by Thomas B Warren to find anything about the Holy Spirit. 

Or ....  [ Resource: 1 Chronicles .... Search: two wives ] ----- then it would search every resource that is or has 1 Chronicles references to "two wives" , Dictionaries, monograph, articles, etc. Anything in my library. (I actually did a search about this recently... but I went to WordSearch.... ). 

And probably... these can be done now... and I just don't know the hieroglyphics of how to do it.  

After me starting to use them and learning how to fully use them....I think Templates inb Search will work great for me. I am seeing hope for me... Geeked

xn = Christan  man=man -- Acts 11:26 "....and the disciples were first called Christians in Antioch".

Posts 44
LogosEmployee
Mark Barnes (Faithlife) | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Jun 15 2022 4:52 AM

Sean:
But as a theologian, I’m more often trying to search the 5,000+ non-Bible books in my library. I don’t know how to do much with them besides AND and OR operations. I don’t understand the different categories of headings or milestones or whatever I can use to limit searches. Can I limit a search so that it shows results that come only in the same paragraph or chapter? Can I limit a search to a specific author--not just searching in books by a specific author, but journal articles or dictionary entries or essays in multi-author works? Can I limit a search to just dictionaries and encyclopedias without creating a collection? I’m clueless as to what all I can do with these books in search and fear I’m missing out on a lot. I’d like to see templates that show every field that I can use in different kinds of books with examples.

Thank you. That's a very helpful articulation of what you're looking for in search, that will help us improve search for the future. I'm going to share it with the team.

A couple of things that may help you immediately:

You can use NEAR or WITHIN X WORDS in place of AND. That may help you approximate for searching within the same paragraph.

You can search just dictionaries and encyopedias through Quick Collections, although it would obviously be more helpful if we could simply add 'Dictionaries' or 'Encylopedias' to the dropdown for you.

Posts 25973
Forum MVP
Graham Criddle | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Jun 15 2022 6:12 AM

I know you were just giving a couple of examples but thought it might be useful to think about how you can search for these in Logos

xnman:
Maybe something like....  [Author: Thomas B. Warren  ....  Search: Holy Spirit]  ----- then it would search all the resources I have by Thomas B Warren to find anything about the Holy Spirit. 

In the post just below yours, Mark provided a link to Quick Collections

We can use these in a Basic Search to limit the scope of books included in the search - in this case you could use something like author:warren, thomas" to select just resources written by him and then do a search for "Holy Spirit".

I don't have resource by him so can't check the exact string required or show a screenshot

Or ....  [ Resource: 1 Chronicles .... Search: two wives ] ----- then it would search every resource that is or has 1 Chronicles references to "two wives" , Dictionaries, monograph, articles, etc. Anything in my library. (I actually did a search about this recently... but I went to WordSearch.... ). 

Presumably in this case, you would like the mention of 1 Chronicles to be "near" the mention of "two wives"

For this you could use the search string "two wives" NEAR <1 Chron> (with the angle brackets allowing the reference to be given in a variety of ways and for it still to match

Out of interest, what would your Wordsearch-based search look like? 

Posts 1656
PL | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Jun 15 2022 8:48 AM

Mark Barnes:

I have two questions for you all:

  1. How often, if ever, do you use Search Helps and Search Templates
  2. Are there new templates you wish were included?

Thank you! Your responses will help us improve Logos for everyone.

Hi Mark,

I rarely use Logos' Search feature. Prefer to use Google for Bible searches. I've already elaborated on my views and wishes for Logos search to be more natural-language based like Google. I will not repeat that here. You can search my previous posts on the topic of Search on this forum.

Regarding Search Templates, I do find them useful but restrictive, in the sense that I can only select from the dropdown list. For example, if I choose "Person in the Bible", and start typing "Jos"... I am forced to choose one of the items in the dropdown. If I just press Enter, it will default to the first item. I cannot search for Jos*; I can't type in a list of names; I can't select both Josiahs listed in the dropdown. I find it unnecessarily restrictive.

I recently rediscovered the Bible Browser and see the potential of this tool. I doubt that it's very discoverable and have the following suggestions for you to consider:

1. Incorporate the Bible Browser as part of the Bible Search. (At the minimum, provide a link to Bible Browser from the Bible Search page. Or better yet, make Bible Browser as one of the tabs in the Search tool. Or some other way for a deeper integration between the two.)

2. Make the Bible Browser display results in the same view format choices (Grid, Aligned, Analysis) as the Bible Search results. Currently the results pane of the Bible Browser is hard to read compared to the Bible Search's Grid View and Aligned View.

3. Organize the side bar filters of the Bible Browser into a two-level hierarchical structure. Right now those categories seem randomly dumped; they are not alphabetical and not seem to be ordered in any logical groupings. I believe if they can be grouped as categories related to the Bible books, or to the text, or the sentence/speech types, or the people involved, or themes/topics, etc., then that filter list will make more sense and look more organized and discoverable/usable.

4. Allow multi-select on the side filter panel for the Bible Browser (please consider allowing multi-select on all facet side bars, just like most shopping website filter side bars).

Posts 326
scooter | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Jun 15 2022 11:09 AM

Graham Criddle:
Your screenshot is from a Basic Search  whereas Mark's is from a Bible Search

In the vocab in my head, a basic search INCLUDES a Bible search. because of my definition of basic = [includes] everything, all.

Posts 25973
Forum MVP
Graham Criddle | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Jun 15 2022 11:28 AM

scooter:
In the vocab in my head, a basic search INCLUDES a Bible search. because of my definition of basic = [includes] everything, all.

I can easily see that!

My speculation is that it was originally intended to differntiate from the more bible-specific BIble Search (which often good take advantage of additional tagging etc)

But that's not to say that it is the best name!

Posts 36083
Forum MVP
MJ. Smith | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Jun 15 2022 12:09 PM

scooter:
because of my definition of basic = [includes] everything, all.

Fascinating, I think of basic = stripped down to essentials, minimal. A great example of the difficulties Logos has in labeling the interface.

Orthodox Bishop Hilarion Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."

Posts 3536
Beloved Amodeo | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Jun 15 2022 12:23 PM
  • Search is fundamental to Logos; it should be fun and educational to interact with.
  • As of now Bible Browser is the best example in Logos of the above principle.
  • The steps necessary to arrive at the desired result should be easy to recall.
  • I think others have pointed this out, but the need for bracketing and such should be hidden.
  • Boolean operators should be suggested or supplied by search.
  • Of course the helps should be optional.

Meanwhile, Jesus kept on growing wiser and more mature, and in favor with God and his fellow man.

International Standard Version. (2011). (Lk 2:52). Yorba Linda, CA: ISV Foundation.

MacBook Pro macOS Big Sur 11.6 1TB SSD 

Posts 1656
PL | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Jun 15 2022 12:37 PM

scooter:
In the vocab in my head, a basic search INCLUDES a Bible search. because of my definition of basic = [includes] everything, all.

I have long felt that "Basic" Search should have been called "General" Search instead.

Posts 1656
PL | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Jun 15 2022 12:38 PM

Beloved Amodeo:

  • The steps necessary to arrive at the desired result should be easy to recall.
  • I think others have pointed this out, but the need for bracketing and such should be hidden.

You've hit the nail on the head on these two points!

Posts 1208
xnman | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Jun 15 2022 12:44 PM

MJ. Smith:

scooter:
because of my definition of basic = [includes] everything, all.

Fascinating, I think of basic = stripped down to essentials, minimal. A great example of the difficulties Logos has in labeling the interface.

I wonder if MJ would feel the same if had come from WordSearch???  hmmmm.... Geeked

xn = Christan  man=man -- Acts 11:26 "....and the disciples were first called Christians in Antioch".

Posts 326
scooter | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Jun 15 2022 1:01 PM

Graham Criddle:

scooter:
In the vocab in my head, a basic search INCLUDES a Bible search. because of my definition of basic = [includes] everything, all.

I can easily see that!

My speculation is that it was originally intended to differntiate from the more bible-specific BIble Search (which often good take advantage of additional tagging etc)

What you say makes very good sense!!

Posts 36083
Forum MVP
MJ. Smith | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Jun 15 2022 1:03 PM

xnman:
I wonder if MJ would feel the same if had come from WordSearch???  hmmmm.... Geeked

Hmmm ... I use the same definition of basic across all software and school subjects. And I can see Dr. Barrell yelling at you "in this class you THINK not FEEL" -- Dr. Barrell was head of my department, head of the Rocky Mountain Botanical Institute, and a fine organist.

PS. I did get WordSearch for my Father.

Orthodox Bishop Hilarion Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."

Page 1 of 3 (44 items) 1 2 3 Next > | RSS