How would you improve our search helps?

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Posts 326
scooter | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Jun 15 2022 1:08 PM

MJ. Smith:

scooter:
because of my definition of basic = [includes] everything, all.

Fascinating, I think of basic = stripped down to essentials, minimal. A great example of the difficulties Logos has in labeling the interface.

Oh, yeah; I hear you on this, MJ.

My granddaughter at age 3 did not want to be called 'baby.'

I explained words can have multiple meanings using 'big' and its 3 meanings of tall, fat and muscular.  I put her dad, her dad's friend and me in the view-finder to show the different meanings.  So, as in he is tall and muscular, but not fat.  

Posts 1444
DMB | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Jun 15 2022 1:09 PM

I'd assume Basic vs Bible is from earlier software versions. 'Users' like continuity.

In Libronix, 'Basic' was basic barebones, and  'Bible' was Bibles.

Then you had your Bible Speed Search, which is most akin to 'Find' in Logos.

Finally, you had your 'Advanced Search'  (plus BDAG search).

They largely held onto the morph search and visual syntax search, but dumped the graphical query.

Posts 326
scooter | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Jun 15 2022 1:10 PM

PL:

Beloved Amodeo:

  • The steps necessary to arrive at the desired result should be easy to recall.
  • I think others have pointed this out, but the need for bracketing and such should be hidden.

You've hit the nail on the head on these two points!

For 110 % sure.

Posts 36083
Forum MVP
MJ. Smith | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Jun 15 2022 3:06 PM

Beloved Amodeo:

  • I think others have pointed this out, but the need for bracketing and such should be hidden.

I agree with you - a simpler design without the various brackets is what will work best. However, I personally would hate it because the different types of brackets allow me to quickly see the element of the search argument I am trying to pick out. Unfortunately, personal preference has very low priority in good UI design.

Orthodox Bishop Hilarion Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."

Posts 3536
Beloved Amodeo | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Jun 15 2022 3:52 PM

MJ. Smith:
However, I personally would hate it because the different types of brackets allow me to quickly see the element of the search argument I am trying to pick out.
Perhaps you overlooked this...

Beloved Amodeo:

  • Of course the helps should be optional.

I was thinking of you and people like you who have mastered "the way" when I wrote it.

Meanwhile, Jesus kept on growing wiser and more mature, and in favor with God and his fellow man.

International Standard Version. (2011). (Lk 2:52). Yorba Linda, CA: ISV Foundation.

MacBook Pro macOS Big Sur 11.6 1TB SSD 

Posts 36083
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MJ. Smith | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Jun 15 2022 4:59 PM

I assumed a narrow definition of helps - one that excluded the syntax of the search argument including only the information/tools assisting in building that syntax.  Seems to be a familiar theme today - my use of a word not being that of the poster.

Orthodox Bishop Hilarion Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."

Posts 3536
Beloved Amodeo | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Jun 15 2022 6:31 PM

MJ. Smith:

I assumed a narrow definition of helps - one that excluded the syntax of the search argument including only the information/tools assisting in building that syntax.  Seems to be a familiar theme today - my use of a word not being that of the poster.

I was purposely vague, but suggestive. My hoped for interpretation was that the interested parties would conclude that the solution was to build another Bible Browser-like GUI to address Basic Search and its peculiar difficulties, leaving the present search options relatively untouched so that those who are comfortable with the present state of search would not experience any loss.

Meanwhile, Jesus kept on growing wiser and more mature, and in favor with God and his fellow man.

International Standard Version. (2011). (Lk 2:52). Yorba Linda, CA: ISV Foundation.

MacBook Pro macOS Big Sur 11.6 1TB SSD 

Posts 27981
Forum MVP
Dave Hooton | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Jun 15 2022 6:43 PM

Beloved Amodeo:

  • Search is fundamental to Logos; it should be fun and educational to interact with.
  • As of now Bible Browser is the best example in Logos of the above principle.
  • The steps necessary to arrive at the desired result should be easy to recall.
  • I think others have pointed this out, but the need for bracketing and such should be hidden.
  • Boolean operators should be suggested or supplied by search.

I wonder how we can apply these criteria to Graham's response to the query put forward by xnman.

Graham Criddle:


I know you were just giving a couple of examples but thought it might be useful to think about how you can search for these in Logos

xnman:

     Or ....  [ Resource: 1 Chronicles .... Search: two wives ] ----- then it would search every resource that is or has 1 Chronicles references to "two wives" , Dictionaries, monograph, articles, etc. Anything in my library. ...


Presumably in this case, you would like the mention of 1 Chronicles to be "near" the mention of "two wives"
For this you could use the search string "two wives" NEAR <1 Chron> (with the angle brackets allowing the reference to be given in a variety of ways and for it still to match

  • Graham assumed that the references to 1 Chronicles  would have to be close to the mention of  "two wives"
    •  so he understands that proximity is relevant to that solution and he had a search operator in mind (he used the word "near"). Would you have understood that from the original request? Would you have framed the request differently?
  • xnman understood that he was searching for a phrase, so he used the expression "two wives".
  • the next part is how to express 1 Chronicles. Should your query be:
    • "two wives" near 1 Chronicles  and let Search figure out the rest without additional bracketing?
    • Search may then ask: Did you mean "two wives" NEAR <1 Chronicles> ?
    • You then hit Enter and are pleasantly surprised with the results! You learn that near has to be uppercase and that the bible reference has to be bracketed because "1 Chronicles" would look for that exact phrase and you would end up with a couple of results instead of a  hundred or so. And current Search would look for 1 AND Chronicles!
    • Search could also have suggested "two wives" NEAR <Bible ~1 Chronicles>  --> How would you react to that?
      • it gives the same results but is more precise in recognizing that 1 Chronicles is a Bible reference.
      • the ~ signifies bible references like 1 Chron 4:5 with chapter and/or verse, but it can be omitted.
    • Are you satisfied with a hundred results, or is that too much?  You might try "two wives" NEAR <1 Chronicles 4:5> as that is the exact reference in the bible and it does narrow the results.
    • If your original query had been "two wives" 1 Chronicles would you have been satisfied with "two wives" AND <1 Chronicles> because "Boolean operators should be suggested or supplied..."?
  • There is another dimension to this query because you could have searched for "two wives" as follows:
  • Image
  • i.e. search that passage in a collection of your Commentaries.

Dave
===

Windows 11 & Android 8

Posts 1656
PL | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Jun 15 2022 6:50 PM

The brackets are truly the biggest barrier.

E.g. I just used the search template "One person asks another person a question." I typed in Jesus and Peter. It generates this search query with the different types of brackets:

{Speaker <Person Jesus>} INTERSECTS {Label Question} INTERSECTS {Addressee <Person Peter>}

Honestly, if the search syntax for this were like the following, it would have been bearable and very learnable and understandable (similar to the filtering syntax used in the Library pane):

speaker:jesus type:question addressee:peter

Why can't it be like this? Why do we have all these different shapes and levels of brackets, all nested in different ways, and why do we have to use INTERSECTS all the time (instead of the more common AND)?

These are some of the reasons why the search engine /syntax is so hard to learn. This syntax is psychologically very intimidating to regular users.

Posts 1208
xnman | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Jun 15 2022 6:54 PM

PL:

The brackets are truly the biggest barrier.

E.g. I just used the search template "One person asks another person a question." I typed in Jesus and Peter. It generates this search query with the different types of brackets:

{Speaker <Person Jesus>} INTERSECTS {Label Question} INTERSECTS {Addressee <Person Peter>}

Honestly, if the search syntax for this were like the following, it would have been bearable and very learnable and understandable (similar to the filtering syntax used in the Library pane):

speaker:jesus type:question addressee:peter

Why can't it be like this? Why do we have all these different shapes and levels of brackets, all nested in different ways, and why do we have to use INTERSECTS all the time (instead of the more common AND)?

These are some of the reasons why the search engine /syntax is so hard to learn. This syntax is psychologically very intimidating to regular users.

Amen and AMEN!

And Dave... thank you for clearing my post up!

xn = Christan  man=man -- Acts 11:26 "....and the disciples were first called Christians in Antioch".

Posts 36083
Forum MVP
MJ. Smith | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Jun 15 2022 7:24 PM

PL:
The brackets are truly the biggest barrier.

They are a major barrier but after watching requests for help building searches, I personally think there is a bigger issue ... that is that user expectations are impossible to meet. In the example used above, when people want to search on "two wives" as a phrase the search is simple. But often, the user wants to find all the women who are in a multi-wife situation (or men in polygamous relationships). This can be done logically by finding all the husband-wife pairs in Chronicles, sorting by husband, then selecting each case where there is more than one wife name associated with an individual husband, then verifying that the wife names neither (a) are alternative name for the same person nor (b) sequential wives i.e. remarriage after the death of the previous wife. If you stop and consider what is actually required for a search to find two simultaneous wives, it is obvious that no simple single search will provide the answer. However, Logos does provide almost all the required information by the list of relatives on the Factbook page. The "search" consists of reading the Factbook page for the individual; if multiple wives are listed, there is a manual check for consecutive vs. simultaneous. No amount of simplification will mitigate the need to seriously think the search request through.

PL:
speaker:jesus type:question addressee:peter

This is almost possible -- but speaker, type, and addressee all occur in more than one context ... you still need to indicate the context to tie them together or make the independent.

PL:
why do we have to use INTERSECTS all the time (instead of the more common AND)?

AND and INTERSECTS are quite different -- the first is a logical relationship, the two elements simply both need to be present in the text being search (often an article). I got a memorable lesson in this when I complained to Bradley that a search failed. He pointed out that the entire short book was a single article ... the two words were a mere 93 pages apart. The second is a proximity relationship, requesting that the two elements both appear in the same tagged semantic unit. Note that before the INTERSECTS operator was added, we wrote a lot of search arguments including WITHIN 0 WORDS in order to put two restrictions on a single word.

Orthodox Bishop Hilarion Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."

Posts 3536
Beloved Amodeo | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Jun 15 2022 8:00 PM

Dave Hooton:

Beloved Amodeo:

  • Search is fundamental to Logos; it should be fun and educational to interact with.
  • As of now Bible Browser is the best example in Logos of the above principle.
  • The steps necessary to arrive at the desired result should be easy to recall.
  • I think others have pointed this out, but the need for bracketing and such should be hidden.
  • Boolean operators should be suggested or supplied by search.

I wonder how we can apply these criteria to Graham's response to the query put forward by xnman.

Graham Criddle:


I know you were just giving a couple of examples but thought it might be useful to think about how you can search for these in Logos

xnman:

     Or ....  [ Resource: 1 Chronicles .... Search: two wives ] ----- then it would search every resource that is or has 1 Chronicles references to "two wives" , Dictionaries, monograph, articles, etc. Anything in my library. ...


Presumably in this case, you would like the mention of 1 Chronicles to be "near" the mention of "two wives"
For this you could use the search string "two wives" NEAR <1 Chron> (with the angle brackets allowing the reference to be given in a variety of ways and for it still to match

  • Graham assumed that the references to 1 Chronicles  would have to be close to the mention of  "two wives"
    •  so he understands that proximity is relevant to that solution and he had a search operator in mind (he used the word "near"). Would you have understood that from the original request? Would you have framed the request differently?
  • xnman understood that he was searching for a phrase, so he used the expression "two wives".
  • the next part is how to express 1 Chronicles. Should your query be:
    • "two wives" near 1 Chronicles  and let Search figure out the rest without additional bracketing?
    • Search may then ask: Did you mean "two wives" NEAR <1 Chronicles> ?
    • You then hit Enter and are pleasantly surprised with the results! You learn that near has to be uppercase and that the bible reference has to be bracketed because "1 Chronicles" would look for that exact phrase and you would end up with a couple of results instead of a  hundred or so. And current Search would look for 1 AND Chronicles!
    • Search could also have suggested "two wives" NEAR <Bible ~1 Chronicles>  --> How would you react to that?
      • it gives the same results but is more precise in recognizing that 1 Chronicles is a Bible reference.
      • the ~ signifies bible references like 1 Chron 4:5 with chapter and/or verse, but it can be omitted.
    • Are you satisfied with a hundred results, or is that too much?  You might try "two wives" NEAR <1 Chronicles 4:5> as that is the exact reference in the bible and it does narrow the results.
    • If your original query had been "two wives" 1 Chronicles would you have been satisfied with "two wives" AND <1 Chronicles> because "Boolean operators should be suggested or supplied..."?
  • There is another dimension to this query because you could have searched for "two wives" as follows:
  • Image
  • i.e. search that passage in a collection of your Commentaries.

  • One of the primary goals of the GUI is to return relevant data using a method that is intuitive and requires limited steps.
    • Towards that end the student should learn the concept of a proximity search as you have mentioned, but...
    • In addition the effects of other Boolean operators should be explored, e.g., WITHIN, etc. 
    • It would be desirable for the GUI to supply results for the range of choices for the various operator options. Then the student would select the most applicable result. For instance NEAR 79,000 results in 1,000 resources vs. WITHIN 28 results in 5 resources and so on.
  • I know I've not been exhaustive with my comments, but I expect the experts will see these observations and interpret them meaningfully and logically

Meanwhile, Jesus kept on growing wiser and more mature, and in favor with God and his fellow man.

International Standard Version. (2011). (Lk 2:52). Yorba Linda, CA: ISV Foundation.

MacBook Pro macOS Big Sur 11.6 1TB SSD 

Posts 36083
Forum MVP
MJ. Smith | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Jun 15 2022 10:43 PM

Beloved Amodeo:
I think others have pointed this out, but the need for bracketing and such should be hidden.

As long as there are elements that can have 1 or more sub-elements, and as long as there are sub-elements that can appear under more than one main element [think as long as there are labels], bracketing of some sort must be present and visible. At least until we can have a mind-meld with the Logos application Wink

Bracketing is also required when one needs to define groups such as "A and at least one of B,C,D"  -- although here the "bracket" could be a keyword such as list, group, ...

Beloved Amodeo:
Boolean operators should be suggested or supplied by search.

The Boolean operators are limited to AND, OR, and ANDNOT. I can see them offered as a choice but I struggle to see how the computer would know which I intended for it to suggest or supply the value.

The only reason I went back to respond to this post is to point out that users must have reasonable expectations. The computer does not yet read our minds. The fundamental work to know what we need to search for is the users' responsibility. Simplifying the search argument needs to be done -- but it will not resolve all the complaints. The Guides, Factbook, and Bible Browser are Logos' effort to minimize the heavy lifting that the user has to accomplish.

Orthodox Bishop Hilarion Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."

Posts 103
Wolfgang Schneider | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Jun 16 2022 1:30 AM

PL:
I have long felt that "Basic" Search should have been called "General" Search instead.

The German interface has "Library" ("Bibliothek") search ... and I struggled at first to find the "Basic" search button  in the row of search settings.Wink

I suppose the terminology "Basic" is used to indicate a search for "basic plain words/expressions", i.e. without special formats, reference, language, etc. involved ?

Wolfgang Schneider

(BibelCenter)

Posts 44
LogosEmployee
Mark Barnes (Faithlife) | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Jun 16 2022 2:38 AM

PL:

speaker:jesus type:question addressee:peter

Why can't it be like this?

I hear you, PL. 

PL:
why do we have to use INTERSECTS all the time (instead of the more common AND)?

{Speaker <Person Jesus>} AND {Addressee <Person Peter>}
{Speaker <Person Jesus>} INTERSECTS {Addressee <Person Peter>}

You can use the former if you wish - but you'd get results if there were two speeches in a verse where one is spoken by Jesus and the other is addressed to Peter. INTERSECTS ensures that both the speaker and addressee parts of the query refer to the same speech. It's not required, but it's a more precise option. I'm not sure there's any way around that distinction, because for some searches you'll want the former, and other times you'll want the latter.

Posts 326
scooter | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Jun 16 2022 3:10 AM

MJ. Smith:
The only reason I went back to respond to this post is to point out that users must have reasonable expectations

Thank you, MJ, for revisiting this string.  

Knowledge level of computers + searches:

Some know a lot......Some know medium-ish...... Some know little.

I know little.  I do not like computer-choice complexity.

But, I never know re Searches if Logos could invent a better set-up [due to my lack of knowledge].

Dave, above, showed the complexity of possibility.

I have always wondered if FL could make searches better.  Did they max their effort, or move on to other projects?

After Mark's efforts, I will know FL did their very best in this area.  Then it will be up to me to learn  {  (  [  INTERSECTS  ]  )  }.

Posts 1208
xnman | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Jun 16 2022 6:26 AM

Again Thanks to Mark for starting this thread!!  I am greatly encouraged that you would take time to actually do this as I know you must be very busy with other things. 

Thank you.  

Now... 

{Speaker <Person Jesus>} INTERSECTS {Addressee <Person Peter>} .....

How much study time do I have to commit to learn how to do that? and then to remember it if I don't use it every day? I use to program ("C++" "ASP" "Prolog" "Fortran").... and believe me, I could not count the hours I spent fixing a program all because I forgot a curly brace {} or a comma. And now we are expected to know all that to do a search? 

How about simplifying...  with a template...  we have a template "Two People Mentioned Together"   maybe add an option to that template or add another template for it? 

And why not have templates for Basic, Media, Clause and Morph?

And then maybe have the template comes up automatically when I type in certain keywords and not have to chose "Bible, Basic, Media, Clause, Morph" at all? I don't know how many times I make the wrong choice and then have to start all over... 

Edit: ----  I believe because of the way I search.... that I would soon learn and remember the keyword to get the template to use in my search ---- end edit.

And as an afterthought...  I know users have responsibility to learn... and to have reasonable expectations...  But somewhere there is this concept that programs are written for users.... and out of that concept grew the concept of "user friendly programs". When a program is "user friendly" ...then users will use it more (at least in theory). Myself included. I see a lot of people going elsewhere to do their searches... 

Search in Logos...  just is not user friendly.  IMHO .... Geeked

Thanks for trying to make it better.... and I have every confidence and expectation that it will be better!

xn = Christan  man=man -- Acts 11:26 "....and the disciples were first called Christians in Antioch".

Posts 1656
PL | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Jun 16 2022 7:51 AM

Thank you for all of your responses and thank you Mark for starting this thread and listening to users' feedback.

Wolfgang, I think "Library Search" is a much better name than "Basic Search" or "General Search"!

Mark and MJ, thanks explaining the difference between AND and INTERSECTS. Now I understand (I think). Maybe it's just the very technical/mathematical-sounding name of INTERSECTS that put me off from trying it since it was introduced. Maybe something like ALSO might be a more user-friendly term? But obviously it's too late to change that after so many years in use.

MJ, thanks for your detailed comments. Unfortunately most of them flew above my head. I guess the challenge for Mark and for FL is to balance the needs for expert users like MJ and others on the one hand, and average/novice users like xnman and myself on the other hand.

I sincerely hope that FL can hear and respond to the voices of those of us who are average/novice users. I have a feeling that this group constitutes the vast majority of Logos/Verbum users.

Posts 36083
Forum MVP
MJ. Smith | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Jun 16 2022 8:52 AM

PL:
I sincerely hope that FL can hear and respond to the voices of those of us who are average/novice users. I have a feeling that this group constitutes the vast majority of Logos/Verbum users.

The last major release had several changes directed towards the average/novice users - Bible Browser, search templates and enhanced Factbook come to mind. I would expect FaithLife to continue to press in this direction. 

Orthodox Bishop Hilarion Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."

Posts 6063
SineNomine | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Jun 16 2022 10:02 AM

I support replacing the confusing term "Basic Search" with the term "General Search".

I also support DOCUMENTING SEARCH PROPERLY within the program. Please forgive my yelling. And then vote for documenting Search properly, here.

"God commands you to pray, but He forbids you to worry." - The Curé d'Ars.

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