How do you find out estimate travel distances and travel times?

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Posts 44
Simon | Forum Activity | Posted: Fri, Jun 24 2022 7:31 AM

Hi, i love the atlas tool! It is such a great visualisation from the Biblical trips.

In the screenshot below you see the map to Genesis 13, how can i find out how long they traveled to reach the for example the Town Ai?

I am aware of the option to measure with "command+ click" distances in the atlas, but thats not really precise. Is there a other option or commentary that shows the a preciser distance?

edit: I made a feature request, if anyone is interested please vote for it under the following link. Thanks!

https://feedback.faithlife.com/boards/logos-desktop-app/posts/include-distance-and-time-estimates-in-atlas-tool

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David Paul | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Jun 24 2022 7:43 AM

Unless a travel time is specified in the text, anything like preciseness is pure conjecture. Distance is difficult to measure due to topography, specifically, how zig-zaggy is the journey due to mountainous terrain. Time measurements are also iffy, since an army may be able to cover a certain distance in a week, whereas people driving animals or with children may take 2-3 times longer.

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Posts 44
Simon | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Jun 24 2022 7:55 AM

Tthanks! Yeah, thats definitely true, but it would be great if you get an estimate time and distance (which is preciser than beeline) so you can visualise the text and the great effort that the trips took. Especially when you preach. 

Posts 1635
DMB | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Jun 24 2022 8:28 AM

You're question started out 'exact' and moved to 'estimate'.  But even that is iffy.  

- In Wikipedia, there's a good article on Roman roads. What's impressive is how extensive they were (a map).  I haven't checked closely but the spread of churches/bishoprics look very much like a road-problem.  Paul's travels appear to be road-based.

- The often quoted 'clear the way' (John the Baptist) had much to do with wheeled vehicles and roads that weren't.  So, someone had to go in front of the small caravan, by necessity.  The Ethiopian eunuch is interesting, vs available roads.

- Availability of water and grass was a big issue (route choice). And cultural prohibitions meant deviations (Samaritans an easy example, but city-states another).

- Who was in your group was a major factor.  Guys could move fast; families not.  The Luke quote of Saul arresting men and women for transport must have really slowed things down.  Also Jesus' family after Jerusalem must have been a major problem.

- Going up, or down was another serious problem.  The route from Jerusalem to Jericho is very similar to the altitude change in hiking the Grand Canyon.  Not easy, absent a mount.

So, in your sermon, throwing out a number would have to be pretty specific, presuming you indeed wanted a sort of accuracy.

Posts 44
Simon | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Jun 24 2022 8:40 AM

DMB:

You're question started out 'exact' and moved to 'estimate'.  But even that is iffy.  

I changed the title. Sorry for the confusion..

DMB:

So, in your sermon, throwing out a number would have to be pretty specific, presuming you indeed wanted a sort of accuracy.

I don't think so, for me it is not a problem when the number is not precise. Because the purpose is not academically analysing the route but making it more visual for the people so they understand what Abram did in Faith. So it can be 20 days off or even more, but i like to know what the estimate time is that i have a clue what i can say. Can you recommend resources or other tools?

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DMB | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Jun 24 2022 9:02 AM

Simon:
but i like to know what the estimate time is that i have a clue what i can say. Can you recommend resources or other tools?

I recognize your problem.  But I wouldn't characterize it as academic .... if you go hiking to any degree, it's anything but academic.  Ancient travel is similar to the desire to say 'the jews believed ...', or 'the average lifespan was ...' or even 'people spoke ...'.  One is essentially just making up stuff for other people (no offense intended).

I don't know a good source (due to the above factors).  But for the practical, I use the iOS app Footpath. It gets a lot of the variables taken care of ... I'm familiar with the roads/paths in Biblical times.

Posts 44
Simon | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Jun 24 2022 9:15 AM

I made a feature request, if someone is also interested please vote for it here:

https://feedback.faithlife.com/boards/logos-desktop-app/posts/include-distance-and-time-estimates-in-atlas-tool

Thanks for you help!

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MJ. Smith | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Jun 24 2022 9:52 AM

Simon:
I am aware of the option to measure with "command+ click" distances in the atlas, but thats not really precise. Is there a other option or commentary that shows the a preciser distance?

The time taken would be dependent on whether they are traveling on foot, by donkey, by camel ... whether they travel alone or with children & the elderly, what the weather is - sunny, snowy, icy ... In short, anything that could be offered is such a "ball park" figure, I would rather make my own guessimate.

Orthodox Bishop Hilarion Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."

Posts 44
Simon | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Jun 24 2022 12:27 PM

MJ. Smith:

I would rather make my own guessimate.

Now i am curious. May I ask you what your guessimate is for the 3 routes in my picture above about Genesis 13?

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MJ. Smith | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Jun 24 2022 1:38 PM
  1. What is the time of year in the sheep's life cycle? Freshly birthed lambs are not fit for travel. Very young lambs slow the herd.
  2. What were the grazing conditions in Abraham's time? Assuming excellent grazing conditions, I would estimate a minimum of two-four hours a day for grazing - longer for poorer conditions.
  3. Am I correct in assuming that the sheep were the slowest of the livestock and therefore, the limiting factor?
  4. You will want to cut a path that is as level as possible and stays within 2 to 4 kilometers of a water source.
  5. The text indicates that the route was covered in stages. Therefore, I would assume that the herd was moving perhaps 6-8 miles a day only during the most optimal times of the year.

My guesstimates assuming optimum weather, grazing, and watering conditions:

  • Hebron-Ai: a bit over a week unless they were in a hurry - perhaps a month to keep everyone happy
  • Sodom-Ai: may be a bit easier to herd along the lake ... a couple of weeks might do it if you push - or perhaps take an entire season for a reasonable pavce.
  • Memphis-Ai: if I was really in a hurry I might try to make it in a couple of years ... or I might go ahead and leave my herdsmen to follow me arriving three to five years after me.

Orthodox Bishop Hilarion Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."

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David Paul | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Jun 24 2022 2:03 PM

Well, first of all, as the first few verses of 13 indicate, 'Abh:raam was travelling with scads of livestock, plus his entire entourage, which probably numbered in the hundreds. While he didn't yet have children, it's likely that some of the women servants he had did. And although he isn't mentioned in the Egypt narrative, Lohtt was with him all along the way with his own scads. So all travel time estimates one arrives at should probably be on the "longer than one might think" end of the scale. After separating from Lohtt, things might have improved marginally, but not much. As mentioned before, when crossing hilly and mountainous terrain, one might have to zig-zag 3-4 miles just to get half-a-mile closer to the destination. Have much of that was necessary? Your guess is as good as mine.

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MJ. Smith | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Jun 24 2022 2:32 PM

David Paul:
with scads of livestock

Apparently Verbum is defective ... or at least my installation. The weights and measures tool fails to convert "scads". Wink

Orthodox Bishop Hilarion Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."

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DMB | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Jun 24 2022 2:38 PM

I think we're missing a dating issue here. Was Abraham in the mid-Bronze (climate favorable, though negotiated watering), or the late-Bronze (worsening climate; limited foraging)?

Posts 44
Simon | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Jun 25 2022 12:12 AM

MJ. Smith:

  • Hebron-Ai: a bit over a week unless they were in a hurry - perhaps a month to keep everyone happy
  • Sodom-Ai: may be a bit easier to herd along the lake ... a couple of weeks might do it if you push - or perhaps take an entire season for a reasonable pavce.
  • Memphis-Ai: if I was really in a hurry I might try to make it in a couple of years ... or I might go ahead and leave my herdsmen to follow me arriving three to five years after me.

Thanks!Geeked

Posts 44
Simon | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Jun 25 2022 12:13 AM

MJ. Smith:

David Paul:
with scads of livestock

Apparently Verbum is defective ... or at least my installation. The weights and measures tool fails to convert "scads". Wink

Big Smile

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xnman | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Jun 25 2022 6:54 AM

Wouldn't "Scads" be relatively simple?

Abraham + Lot = Scads = More than Abraham and more than Lot. Geeked

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