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Posts 1428
DMB | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Jun 30 2022 7:46 AM

MJ. Smith:

The primary problem with the Timeline is that it is not intended to meet the need we most often turn to it for. There is a reason that wrenches and screwdrivers are usually separate tools. 

I guess (not disagreeing). I'm just not sure what market they perceive? If you notice, they front the company with technical-talk (software labeling, feature announcements, staff-interactions), which immediately sets mental boundaries for customers (vs 'users'). In our company, such was intensionally banned ... we needed sales/profits.

Well ... their presentation. I think much can be learned, watching OliveTree's staff vs a religious customer-base.

Posts 5130
Mattillo | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Jun 30 2022 7:52 AM

I agree with a lot of what I've seen on this thread. I wish the timelines feature was more useful but in FL's defense, the way they built it I don't think would allow for what the OP is asking for. I could be wrong though.

Maybe they'll do another interactive in the future about the OT Kings and Prophets :)

Posts 1428
DMB | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Jun 30 2022 8:33 AM

Mattillo:
Maybe they'll do another interactive in the future about the OT Kings and Prophets :)

I assume you're familar with what's known in the industry as the 'Logos 4-times rule'?

It usually takes FL 4 re-designs to get something right.  Maps are finally pretty good (4 re-designs).  Search is on 3-times.  Maybe this fall, a 4th and pretty good.  Text comparison is on #2.  It'll take 2 more re-designs for them.  Ditto Factbook.

FL clockworks.  Smiling.

Extra: the 4-times rule should not be confused with the 80% rule (any FL design achieves 80% of the customer need, with a 6-year wait for corrections).

Posts 5130
Mattillo | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Jun 30 2022 9:07 AM

DMB:

Mattillo:
Maybe they'll do another interactive in the future about the OT Kings and Prophets :)

I assume you're familar with what's known in the industry as the 'Logos 4-times rule'?

It usually takes FL 4 re-designs to get something right.  Maps are finally pretty good (4 re-designs).  Search is on 3-times.  Maybe this fall, a 4th and pretty good.  Text comparison is on #2.  It'll take 2 more re-designs for them.  Ditto Factbook.

FL clockworks.  Smiling.

Extra: the 4-times rule should not be confused with the 80% rule (any FL design achieves 80% of the customer need, with a 6-year wait for corrections).

Big Smile

This is true. I can't say that I love the maps though. I didn't join Logos until the L6 days and I remember liking the old maps but the new ones aren't very clear to me. I wish they had more topography to them so I could zoom in and see mountains and caves. Finding cities can be a pain at times and of course you NEED an internet connection to view them. I also wish they had one main map that had everything like cities, trade routes, etc. I tend to just go to my atlases when I need a map because they are usually more colorful. I hope they had more graphics and detail in the future to make them better though. I will say I like the PPT slides they added to their atlas though. I hope they keep that up.

PS My MacBook every now and then will tell me I don't have internet when I clearly do when using the atlas. Probably just a me error but that is frustrating too because I have to exit the program and restart.

Posts 3535
Beloved Amodeo | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Jun 30 2022 12:59 PM

Mattillo:
I wish the timelines feature was more useful but in FL's defense, the way they built it I don't think would allow for what the OP is asking for.
They can fix Timelines. If you could filter out the noise e.g. The Death of Candaules and focus in on what you're looking for, they can have a sharper tool. The proliferation of interactives just adds to the clutter making what you're after more difficult to find.

If you build a tool make it useful. Timelines are ridiculously burdened with glut.

Meanwhile, Jesus kept on growing wiser and more mature, and in favor with God and his fellow man.

International Standard Version. (2011). (Lk 2:52). Yorba Linda, CA: ISV Foundation.

MacBook Pro macOS Big Sur 11.6 1TB SSD 

Posts 3535
Beloved Amodeo | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Jun 30 2022 1:25 PM

Ed Dingess:
I am attempting to create a simple timeline
Ed's characterization of his problem with the tools design flaw is summarized nicely by his subject title and his concise statement of his dilemma. Take a lesson you developers. We want simple adaptable tools that present attractive data driven results. Not inflexible cluttered temperamental graphics that fail to deliver products you can teach and draw conclusions from.

These demands from your users should be treated with an immediacy of attention, in other words make this a priority, as your relevance as a company responsive to user needs depends on it.

Meanwhile, Jesus kept on growing wiser and more mature, and in favor with God and his fellow man.

International Standard Version. (2011). (Lk 2:52). Yorba Linda, CA: ISV Foundation.

MacBook Pro macOS Big Sur 11.6 1TB SSD 

Posts 1428
DMB | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Jun 30 2022 1:28 PM

Beloved Amodeo:
Timelines are ridiculously burdened with glut.

Beloved, I'm just trying to understand what your issue could be.  In your mind, just hear the song .... 'what, what, what could the matter be ....'

- The menus have everything selected, so you have to unselect everything first?  One by one?

- It's not entirely clear exactly what you're choosing, relative to what you want?

- The colorful patterns don't immediately suggest a pattern?

- The randomness seems overly random?  Or maybe not?

- Entries might repeat?  The J-document, vs the J-document (Welhausen).  Well, which one?

- A search box that doesn't seem to search?

- Font adjustments that actually are zoom adjustments?

- Styles that make you ask .... Informal-y ... what were they thinking?

- And for goodness sakes, where are those kings you want?!!  Which ones, you say?  Kings! K-I-N-G-S!

Posts 3535
Beloved Amodeo | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Jun 30 2022 1:48 PM

DMB:

Beloved Amodeo:
Timelines are ridiculously burdened with glut.

Beloved, I'm just trying to understand what your issue could be.  In your mind, just hear the song .... 'what, what, what could the matter be ....'

- The menus have everything selected, so you have to unselect everything first?  One by one?

- It's not entirely clear exactly what you're choosing, relative to what you want?

- The colorful patterns don't immediately suggest a pattern?

- The randomness seems overly random?  Or maybe not?

- Entries might repeat?  The J-document, vs the J-document (Welhausen).  Well, which one?

- A search box that doesn't seem to search?

- Font adjustments that actually are zoom adjustments?

- Styles that make you ask .... Informal-y ... what were they thinking?

- And for goodness sakes, where are those kings you want?!!  Which ones, you say?  Kings! K-I-N-G-S!

It simply doesn't make sense. So when I think Timeline, I run.

Meanwhile, Jesus kept on growing wiser and more mature, and in favor with God and his fellow man.

International Standard Version. (2011). (Lk 2:52). Yorba Linda, CA: ISV Foundation.

MacBook Pro macOS Big Sur 11.6 1TB SSD 

Posts 36051
Forum MVP
MJ. Smith | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Jun 30 2022 2:42 PM

Beloved Amodeo:

Ed Dingess:
I am attempting to create a simple timeline
Ed's characterization of his problem with the tools design flaw is summarized nicely by his subject title and his concise statement of his dilemma. Take a lesson you developers. We want simple adaptable tools that present attractive data driven results. Not inflexible cluttered temperamental graphics that fail to deliver products you can teach and draw conclusions from.

These demands from your users should be treated with an immediacy of attention, in other words make this a priority, as your relevance as a company responsive to user needs depends on it.

Okay, let's step back a bit and look at the issue objectively. I believe that the timeline is 3rd party software which is well within the state of the art capabilities. It depends upon preset categories to select what should/shouldn't be shown. The time frame has both preset and user set values. One has a choice of styles. While there are some issues with the organization of the selected categories and the handling of events spanning the begin/end dates selected, the software basically does a very good job of in laying out the timeline.

The issue is that we as users want a very granular control over what shows - prophets and kings being a prime example. The categories available are far too broad - Biblical event -->Individual. For use as handouts, what we want is a compound faceted selection (think of Bible browser) of all the data with just our selected entries. By compound I mean ability to combine multiple values for a facet e.g. king and prophet, Israel and Judah, only earliest dates  ...

We, as users, must first be clear in what we need, then determine if it is better to use graphics already in our library or build custom graphics, then add an actual suggestion (not complaint) to feedbear and show that FL should prioritize the project.

Orthodox Bishop Hilarion Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."

Posts 3535
Beloved Amodeo | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Jun 30 2022 5:28 PM

MJ. Smith:

Beloved Amodeo:

Ed Dingess:
I am attempting to create a simple timeline
Ed's characterization of his problem with the tools design flaw is summarized nicely by his subject title and his concise statement of his dilemma. Take a lesson you developers. We want simple adaptable tools that present attractive data driven results. Not inflexible cluttered temperamental graphics that fail to deliver products you can teach and draw conclusions from.

These demands from your users should be treated with an immediacy of attention, in other words make this a priority, as your relevance as a company responsive to user needs depends on it.

Okay, let's step back a bit and look at the issue objectively. I believe that the timeline is 3rd party software which is well within the state of the art capabilities. It depends upon preset categories to select what should/shouldn't be shown. The time frame has both preset and user set values. One has a choice of styles. While there are some issues with the organization of the selected categories and the handling of events spanning the begin/end dates selected, the software basically does a very good job of in laying out the timeline.

The issue is that we as users want a very granular control over what shows - prophets and kings being a prime example. The categories available are far too broad - Biblical event -->Individual. For use as handouts, what we want is a compound faceted selection (think of Bible browser) of all the data with just our selected entries. By compound I mean ability to combine multiple values for a facet e.g. king and prophet, Israel and Judah, only earliest dates  ...

We, as users, must first be clear in what we need, then determine if it is better to use graphics already in our library or build custom graphics, then add an actual suggestion (not complaint) to feedbear and show that FL should prioritize the project.

MJ, we want the same thing we just have different styles of communicating and different backgrounds which allow us to emphasize different aspects of the tool and its development.

As far as a FeedBear request I found that one already exists on this topic waiting for our votes and input and can be found here:

https://feedback.faithlife.com/boards/logos-desktop-app/posts/improve-timeline 

Meanwhile, Jesus kept on growing wiser and more mature, and in favor with God and his fellow man.

International Standard Version. (2011). (Lk 2:52). Yorba Linda, CA: ISV Foundation.

MacBook Pro macOS Big Sur 11.6 1TB SSD 

Posts 1206
xnman | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Jun 30 2022 6:25 PM

I'd like to ask a question (raises hand into the air).... Big Smile

MJ.... how do I use the Timeline to list the Kings of the Northern Kingdom?  I would think that would be something easy for Timeline... It's biblical.... it's O.T....  and yet without a lot of "weeding" through all the convolution....and taking a lot of time to do that.... it cannot be done.

I think this illustrates just some of  the problem with Timeline.

Edit: and this is the problem I have had with Search... and with Factbook... and some other "functions" in Logos. And I will say it's probably me....since I didn't "grow up with Logos".... 

Edit #2.  I would think all of us "users" are on the same page.... not trying to "knock Logos" but really trying to make constructive suggestions by looking at the problems that are hindrances to good Bible study with a great program. I'm dedicated to Logos.... I try not to use WordSearch at all... but how do we go about trying to make Logos work for us... and us not working for it ... to try to get what we need to do our jobs?

Logos is a great program... but you gotta admit... there are some things that are problem areas. 

xn = Christan  man=man -- Acts 11:26 "....and the disciples were first called Christians in Antioch".

Posts 3535
Beloved Amodeo | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Jun 30 2022 6:33 PM

xnman:
I'd like to ask a question
xnman, did you vote? We need votes and comments.

Meanwhile, Jesus kept on growing wiser and more mature, and in favor with God and his fellow man.

International Standard Version. (2011). (Lk 2:52). Yorba Linda, CA: ISV Foundation.

MacBook Pro macOS Big Sur 11.6 1TB SSD 

Posts 1206
xnman | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Jun 30 2022 6:39 PM

Beloved Amodeo:

xnman:
I'd like to ask a question
xnman, did you vote? We need votes and comments.

(Snaps heels together "click", makes a snappy salute)....Yes Sir.... I want to help all I can!!  

xn = Christan  man=man -- Acts 11:26 "....and the disciples were first called Christians in Antioch".

Posts 3535
Beloved Amodeo | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Jun 30 2022 6:51 PM

xnman:

Beloved Amodeo:

xnman:
I'd like to ask a question
xnman, did you vote? We need votes and comments.

(Snaps heels together "click", makes a snappy salute)....Yes Sir.... I want to help all I can!!  

You're a scream. Thanks for all you contribute to these forums.

Meanwhile, Jesus kept on growing wiser and more mature, and in favor with God and his fellow man.

International Standard Version. (2011). (Lk 2:52). Yorba Linda, CA: ISV Foundation.

MacBook Pro macOS Big Sur 11.6 1TB SSD 

Posts 36051
Forum MVP
MJ. Smith | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Jun 30 2022 7:17 PM

xnman:
MJ.... how do I use the Timeline to list the Kings of the Northern Kingdom?  I would think that would be something easy for Timeline..

You don't. While the underlying software is capable of doing it, the implementation of categories for selection is intended to provide broader information. To get a chart of kings and prophets, you use a media search and select from one of several customized timelines from graphic artists. I honestly thought I had made that clear in my post - where did I go wrong?

xnman:
how do we go about trying to make Logos work for us... and us not working for it ...

While there are a number of features that don't have an optimal implementation and there are very different degrees of meeting "all the needs" depending upon your role and denomination, most of learning to use Logos is learning to use the right tool for your needs. The easiest way to learn is to ask in the forums when a tool isn't meeting your need. As you have discovered, the search is not the appropriate tool for identifying Moses' wife. Yes, you can make it do so, but the Factbook provides the data in a simple, nonrepetitive manner. (I think that was the example you used.)

The other aspect of learning to use Logos is to be realistic about what it can do. I want to find all the incidents in the Bible in which a male violates one or more of the 613 mitzvahs -- I obviously cannot do it. In fact, I can only find the mitzvahs because of FL coding - I can't write a search using nothing but the Biblical text that can find them. So to use Logos, I need to have a realistic understanding of when I have to use FL coding and a realistic understanding of what limitations dependence on FL imposes.

But my primary point was that feedback that simply says "too complicated" "too confusing", "too ... is not going to help FL to identify the problems and provide solutions -- we need to say "not suitable as a slide/handout because I can't select only prophets who are also author " ... just as I'd failed to understand that you and Josh were using a search to find a specific fact (what I think of as a lookup) until you mentioned Moses' wife.

FYI - the three weakest functions in Logos from my perspective is (a) the lack of support for multi-word phrases in the Concordance tool, (b) the poor implementation of liturgical calendar dates, and (c) the prayer list function with its petitionary focus and assumption response means stop praying about it.

Orthodox Bishop Hilarion Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."

Posts 3535
Beloved Amodeo | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Jun 30 2022 8:07 PM

MJ. Smith:

xnman:
MJ.... how do I use the Timeline to list the Kings of the Northern Kingdom?  I would think that would be something easy for Timeline..

You don't. While the underlying software is capable of doing it, the implementation of categories for selection is intended to provide broader information. To get a chart of kings and prophets, you use a media search and select from one of several customized timelines from graphic artists. I honestly thought I had made that clear in my post - where did I go wrong?

xnman:
how do we go about trying to make Logos work for us... and us not working for it ...

While there are a number of features that don't have an optimal implementation and there are very different degrees of meeting "all the needs" depending upon your role and denomination, most of learning to use Logos is learning to use the right tool for your needs. The easiest way to learn is to ask in the forums when a tool isn't meeting your need. As you have discovered, the search is not the appropriate tool for identifying Moses' wife. Yes, you can make it do so, but the Factbook provides the data in a simple, nonrepetitive manner. (I think that was the example you used.)

The other aspect of learning to use Logos is to be realistic about what it can do. I want to find all the incidents in the Bible in which a male violates one or more of the 613 mitzvahs -- I obviously cannot do it. In fact, I can only find the mitzvahs because of FL coding - I can't write a search using nothing but the Biblical text that can find them. So to use Logos, I need to have a realistic understanding of when I have to use FL coding and a realistic understanding of what limitations dependence on FL imposes.

But my primary point was that feedback that simply says "too complicated" "too confusing", "too ... is not going to help FL to identify the problems and provide solutions -- we need to say "not suitable as a slide/handout because I can't select only prophets who are also author " ... just as I'd failed to understand that you and Josh were using a search to find a specific fact (what I think of as a lookup) until you mentioned Moses' wife.

FYI - the three weakest functions in Logos from my perspective is (a) the lack of support for multi-word phrases in the Concordance tool, (b) the poor implementation of liturgical calendar dates, and (c) the prayer list function with its petitionary focus and assumption response means stop praying about it.

MJ, I think you're being too hard on xnman. He comes from a different culture, as he said, and I think I quote, "I didn't grow up with Logos." I think his perspective has some merit. There are instances where FL can improve by scaling down its complexity and most importantly reducing its tendency to overwhelm with information. My question to you is; what do you use the Timeline Tool for and importantly are you satisfied with its performance?

Meanwhile, Jesus kept on growing wiser and more mature, and in favor with God and his fellow man.

International Standard Version. (2011). (Lk 2:52). Yorba Linda, CA: ISV Foundation.

MacBook Pro macOS Big Sur 11.6 1TB SSD 

Posts 1206
xnman | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Jun 30 2022 8:09 PM

Thanks MJ....  So I go over to Google ... type in Kings of Northern Kingdom...  and walla...  there they are... easy peazy .... 

30-06-2022-11-07-43
I know how to get information.... just wish I could do it in Logos. Geeked

xn = Christan  man=man -- Acts 11:26 "....and the disciples were first called Christians in Antioch".

Posts 3535
Beloved Amodeo | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Jun 30 2022 8:27 PM

xnman:

Thanks MJ....  So I go over to Google ... type in Kings of Northern Kingdom...  and walla...  there they are... easy peazy .... 

30-06-2022-11-07-43
I know how to get information.... just wish I could do it in Logos. Geeked

Nice image! You had to hunt for that though. Similarly in Logos you enter the same string in a media search of charts and timelines in all resources. You'll get images. It is possible in Logos.

Meanwhile, Jesus kept on growing wiser and more mature, and in favor with God and his fellow man.

International Standard Version. (2011). (Lk 2:52). Yorba Linda, CA: ISV Foundation.

MacBook Pro macOS Big Sur 11.6 1TB SSD 

Posts 1206
xnman | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Jun 30 2022 8:58 PM

Beloved Amodeo:

Nice image! You had to hunt for that though. Similarly in Logos you enter the same string in a media search of charts and timelines in all resources. You'll get images. It is possible in Logos.

Didn't hunt at all.... I use Chrome browser.... just type "kings of northern kingdom" in address bar... and there she be!

And I must not have the right  resources or features in Logos... because I don't get anything like that chart in Logos when I search Media -- Charts; Timeline in all resources for kings of northern kingdom. What chart do you get?

xn = Christan  man=man -- Acts 11:26 "....and the disciples were first called Christians in Antioch".

Posts 3535
Beloved Amodeo | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Jun 30 2022 9:24 PM

xnman:

Beloved Amodeo:

Nice image! You had to hunt for that though. Similarly in Logos you enter the same string in a media search of charts and timelines in all resources. You'll get images. It is possible in Logos.

Didn't hunt at all.... I use Chrome browser.... just type "kings of northern kingdom" in address bar... and there she be!

And I must not have the right  resources or features in Logos... because I don't get anything like that chart in Logos when I search Media -- Charts; Timeline in all resources for kings of northern kingdom. What chart do you get?

Meanwhile, Jesus kept on growing wiser and more mature, and in favor with God and his fellow man.

International Standard Version. (2011). (Lk 2:52). Yorba Linda, CA: ISV Foundation.

MacBook Pro macOS Big Sur 11.6 1TB SSD 

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