Logos Lacks Links, again and again and again

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Sean | Forum Activity | Posted: Wed, Jul 20 2022 12:55 AM

This is something I have long harped on; it is my major complaint against Logos. I can't find the original thread I started on it, but the problem keeps coming up again and again and again.

Logos Research Edition books are supposed to have complete hyperlinks to titles already in Logos' catalogue. Frequently this is not the case. I would describe the quality of links in any given resource as "hit or miss," and you never know what you are getting until you purchase it.

Today I just received the title, Trinitarian Dogmatics, published in 2022, a Logos Research Edition. Very new book! I pleased to see that it references one of my new favorite theologians, K. Sonderegger, and her Systematic Theology, which I have in Logos. I was disappointed but unsurprised that the citation was not linked:

(This is from page 8.)

Over the years, whenever I have voiced this complaint, I have been given many excuses as to why linking everything in Logos isn't possible. I do not see why any of those reasons should apply here. The new resource is new, produced in 2022, not in the wild days of loose standards in, say, the Libronix era. The cited work is in Logos catalogue and predates the new one (2020). Don't say it's because the page number is Roman; I was able to enter that in the resource's go box and go right to the page. This is a Research Edition, not a Readers' ebook.

Checking further, the book makes about 8 references to Sonderegger. NONE OF THEM ARE LINKED. Checking even further, almost nothing is linked--not even Charles Hodges's ST which has been in Logos forever! You got Barth's CD, but not his more recently released Romans.

This is sloppy. Very very sloppy.

Faithlife, what do you have to say for yourself?

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MJ. Smith | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Jul 20 2022 2:07 AM

I get annoyed with this too. Did you check the bibliography to verify that the Logos edition is the same edition as cited in the bibliography?

Orthodox Bishop Hilarion Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."

Posts 1397
Sean | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Jul 20 2022 2:23 AM

MJ. Smith:

I get annoyed with this too. Did you check the bibliography to verify that the Logos edition is the same edition as cited in the bibliography?

Yes, only one edition of the book, and I found the quotation easily enough by typing in the page number. Logos is supposed to save me that. There's really no excuse this time.

Roughly half the citations in this book seem to be unlinked, although I can't verify that all of them are available in Logos. They don't link Charles Hodge! That's big--that was one of the first works they linked up in their woefully-incomplete-at-release Theology Guide. I remember having that book in the first version of Logos I bought in the last century, whatever it was that came before Libronix...

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Mike Binks | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Jul 20 2022 3:38 AM

MJ. Smith:

I get annoyed with this too.

Hear! Hear!

tootle pip

Mike

How to get logs and post them. (now tagging post-apocalyptic fiction as current affairs)

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Doc B | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Jul 20 2022 11:58 AM

Sean:
you never know what you are getting until you purchase it.

I copied the link to this thread to the product page for the book so (hopefully) others don't get the same disappointing surprise.

My thanks to the various MVPs. Without them Logos would have died early. They were the only real help available.

Faithlife Corp. owes the MVPs free resources for life.

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Kyle G. Anderson | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Jul 20 2022 4:36 PM

My apologies. We definitely missed the Sonderegger references. We will get those updated.

As for Hodge, it appears to be a different edition.

We'll do an audit of other references as well.

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JT (alabama24) | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Jul 20 2022 4:42 PM

Yes

macOS, iOS & iPadOS | Logs |  Install

Posts 1397
Sean | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Jul 20 2022 9:23 PM

Kyle G. Anderson:

My apologies. We definitely missed the Sonderegger references. We will get those updated.

As for Hodge, it appears to be a different edition.

We'll do an audit of other references as well.

Thanks for the response, though I'm likely to be done with my read-through before you push out an update.

Also check the refs. to Barth's Romans. It's the same edition as you published earlier this year.

Posts 1397
Sean | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Aug 5 2022 8:14 AM

Yet another example from The Nonviolent Atonement, published in Logos this year. It cites Yoder's Politics of Jesus, published in Logos not-this-year, and no links were created:

If I had to describe Logos's linking, I would use the words "random" and "capricious." I've said it before, and it looks like I will continue to do so: You never know if you're going to get linking until you buy the book and look inside. Sometimes if you squint you can make sense of the policy ("Well, it's an identical reprint with the same page numbers & everything, but not the same original publisher, so we're not linking it") This isn't one of those cases.

Logos 10 will roll out soon, and we'll all pay money for new datasets for obscure searches, but this fundamental problem in quality control will continue to be addressed only half-heartedly.

EDIT: Here's the work: https://www.logos.com/product/195058/the-nonviolent-atonement-2nd-ed 

Scanning through the pages, almost nothing in the footnotes is linked. Many of the titles aren't in FL's catalogue, but it doesn't look like even an attempt was made to link those that are.

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NB.Mick | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Aug 5 2022 8:47 AM

Sean:

EDIT: Here's the work: https://www.logos.com/product/195058/the-nonviolent-atonement-2nd-ed 

Scanning through the pages, almost nothing in the footnotes is linked. Many of the titles aren't in FL's catalogue, but it doesn't look like even an attempt was made to link those that are.

This is a Logos Reader Edition, which means FL won't put in the links to other books as we expect from Logos Research Editions. 

Running Logos 9 latest (beta) version on Win 10

Posts 1682
DMB | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Aug 5 2022 10:09 AM

NB.Mick:
This is a Logos Reader Edition

Good point, no offense to Sean.  But the 'reader edition' idea needs explanation on product pages more than a generic description.  And I doubt FL would identify 'why'. The Catholic Encylopedia (old one) is a reader edition ... I'm guessing to its age? 

A more recent example, Jodi Magness's 2nd ed of DSS archaeology is a 'reader edition'.  The 1st edition product page doesn't say, but clicking thru my own copy, it looks pretty 'research edition' (active links).  Would I buy her new one?  Nope.  Would I know not to? Nope (I don't closely examine; I should I guess). But then maybe FL had a reason ... who knows?

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MJ. Smith | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Aug 5 2022 10:25 AM

DMB:
But then maybe FL had a reason ... who knows?

I don't know the answer to "who knows" but the first thing I woud check is "was the 1st edition produced before the distinction between research/reader editions was made?"

Orthodox Bishop Hilarion Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."

Posts 1682
DMB | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Aug 5 2022 12:39 PM

MJ. Smith:

I don't know the answer to "who knows" but the first thing I woud check is "was the 1st edition produced before the distinction between research/reader editions was made?"

Certainly, but not quite the point. If an older edition is linked, and a new one isn't, I'd forego any update purchase. Absent knowing why.

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SineNomine | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Aug 5 2022 1:00 PM

DMB:
Good point, no offense to Sean.  But the 'reader edition' idea needs explanation on product pages more than a generic description.  And I doubt FL would identify 'why'. The Catholic Encylopedia (old one) is a reader edition ... I'm guessing to its age? 

As best I can determine, Faithlife doesn't say more about what is missing from Logos Reader Editions because the tagging omitted varies from one Reader Edition to another.

If I recall correctly, the Catholic Encyclopedia has no <date> tags.

“The trouble is that everyone talks about reforming others and no one thinks about reforming himself.” St. Peter of Alcántara

Posts 1397
Sean | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Aug 5 2022 4:06 PM

NB.Mick:
This is a Logos Reader Edition, which means FL won't put in the links to other books as we expect from Logos Research Editions. 

Ah I knew there was one last thing I forgot to check before ranting! Although there are some links to resources with standard, non-page number references (e.g., Cur Deus Homo).

We really should make a master list of "reasons why you shouldn't expect to get links." (It won't be a short one.)

Posts 37
Dave Palmer | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Aug 5 2022 7:14 PM

SineNomine:
As best I can determine, Faithlife doesn't say more about what is missing from Logos Reader Editions because the tagging omitted varies from one Reader Edition to another.

I would love for the Logos community to be able to crowd source the linking in Logos Reader Editions. It would be a win/win for everyone.

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MJ. Smith | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Aug 5 2022 10:34 PM

Dave Palmer:
Logos community to be able to crowd source the linking in Logos Reader Editions

Community tags are a step in this direction but I don't think they've been widely adopted.

Orthodox Bishop Hilarion Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."

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SineNomine | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Aug 6 2022 11:52 AM

Sean:
We really should make a master list of "reasons why you shouldn't expect to get links." (It won't be a short one.)

Prove it. Wink

“The trouble is that everyone talks about reforming others and no one thinks about reforming himself.” St. Peter of Alcántara

Posts 1397
Sean | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Aug 6 2022 5:05 PM

SineNomine:

Sean:
We really should make a master list of "reasons why you shouldn't expect to get links." (It won't be a short one.)

Prove it. Wink

Oh I will some day, when I have more time. Stick out tongue

For another example of capricious lack of links, see Rosie's recent thread: https://community.logos.com/forums/t/209140.aspx 

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MJ. Smith | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Aug 6 2022 5:21 PM

Sean:
We really should make a master list of "reasons why you shouldn't expect to get links." (It won't be a short one.)

I have my list of one: I should not expect whole classes of links because I lack sufficient information on which to build an accurate prediction as I do not know when the resource was tagged under what guidelines and which resources referenced were matched by resources currently indexed with appropriate indices together with unavoidable human error.

Orthodox Bishop Hilarion Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."

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