What is going on?

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Posts 45
Jason York | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Aug 12 2010 2:02 PM

Allen:

Guys... 

I think we are missing the forrest for the trees.  Let's try this....  I have listed my questions numerically.

(1) Was Logos 3 ever completed?  Did Logos stop development of Logos 3 for Mac?

If I remember correctly... If in fact Logos did halt development of L3... I seem to remember the reason was to put all energy into L4 development...???

(2) With no completed L3... Do we after a year of "soon",  have a stable workable L4?  

You may need to read some of the other forums (not my post) about Beta 5 crashes before you answer this one.

Allen,

Logos 3 was completed as far as I understand, it was out for years before logos 4 ever came out. The mac version may not have become feature complete in comparison to logos 3 for pc, but it is fully stable and functional. Would you rather have had the dev team make that feature complete and have the mac version be still on version 3 and the pc be on version 4? No one likes mac versions of software to be less capable than the pc counterpart, which means that the dev team had to first make version 1.2 stable and functional, which they did, and then transition to making the best mac bible software out there, version 4. 

The development of logos mac version 1 was halted because they wanted to have the product be completely comparable to logos 4, which I and most everyone else appreciates, that was coming out for the pc. Logos 1.2 is still fully functional if you want to use it until the mac version of logos 4 is perfect. 

I remember when logos announced that they were going to make a mac product and I was quite excited. Although it took a long time, they followed through with a functional but somewhat basic product, version 1.2.

But, what you may not remember is that the reason why it took so long to come out with their first mac product was because back in 2006 apple switched from using motorola processors (the G4/G5) to intel, which meant that all software that was going to be compatible with apple in the future had to be rewritten for the new intel system.(essentially requiring software development to start over.) (that wasn't logos fault and neither was it apple's, its simply a time consuming transition into much better technology) If you want innovation there will always be rough transitions, wether that be analogue to digital television (making elderly people buy and set up a digital converter box) or any other technological advance. 

it hasn't been a year yet on logos 4 mac development and my guess is we are very close from having all the bugs ironed out. Using software is a choice, if you don't want to use beta software, then wait a month until things are more complete, if you would rather use other company bible software then do it. I came from quick-verse, which literally never fixed bugs or typos and didn't have a forum to get quick answers directly from the developers. I would rather use version 1.2 than quick-verse or any other bible software out there for mac because logos is a way better company with way better customer service and a real method for getting things fixed even if it isn't instant. I have never known a company who so thoroughly and quickly releases bug fixes and even fixes for typos. 

I realize, its our nature to want things right away and to want them to work perfectly, but quality products take time, and logos is doing a fine job of making the highest quality bible software out there. I have now graduated from bible school and was really only able to use logos minimally, because it was in early alpha,on my final projects for school, and I would have loved a fully functional product, but thats life, and now that I am out of school I will be able to use logos for all of my studies and sermon prep, which is awesome.

what other company lets you talk directly to the developers about issues and problems? We are greatly blessed to have such access to helping the progress of logos 4.

Posts 21
Allen | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Aug 12 2010 3:21 PM

I didn't think anyone would actually give an answer to the 2 questions I posted... You only wish to as BJ put it "defend" Logos and pretend my points are not valid.  I can't believe that you guys in good conscience can ignore the obviousness of my questions and have the attitude of "What is my problem" when I point them out.  

Thank you BJ for at least acknowledging some things in your post.  I will give you today's specifics...

My first crash was when I was opening NLT after I had opened ESV and NASB in the same window.

My second crash was when I was opening various dictionary resources 4 of them.

And my third crash was when I was trying to display the interlinear in ESV.

All these happened today.  Each time loosing all work and windows I had opened at the time.

 

 

 

 

 

 

Posts 21
Allen | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Aug 12 2010 3:31 PM

Michael Aubrey,

[Please forgive my over statement, I did not mean to confuse my point.  It has been 10 months not 12.]

The point was L3 was not completed and L4 "after 10 months" is still buggy and crashes (not just for me but for many others, check out the forums...)   Those are facts whether we chose to acknowledge them or not.

Posts 5622
Todd Phillips | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Aug 12 2010 3:35 PM

Allen:
The point was L3 was not completed and L4 "after 10 months" is still buggy and crashes (not just for me but for many others, check out the forums...)   Those are facts whether we chose to acknowledge them or not.

Allen, it's still beta.  But if you want to work with the beta program, then post your logs when you get a crash.  What more do you want? A refund?

Wiki Links: Enabling Logging / Detailed Search Help - MacBook Pro (2014), ThinkPad E570

Posts 698
LogosEmployee

Allen:
I didn't think anyone would actually give an answer to the 2 questions I posted...

I'm confused about which questions weren't answered.

Libronix 1.2.2 (there was no such product as "Logos 3" for the Mac) development was stopped. At the time it was stopped, it lacked many features that were present in Libronix DLS 3 on Windows. Efforts were instead focused on Logos 4 Mac. This was covered in explicit detail in the original status update regarding Logos on the Mac in November written by the CEO. Moreover, Logos 4 Windows still lacks some features that were available in Libronix DLS 3, including PBB, Sentence Diagramer (coming in 4.1 on Windows), etc. I think that should cover question #1 (which was actually 2 separate questions).

At the present moment Logos 4 Mac is at Beta 6 (released within the last couple of hours). Is it 100% stable? No. Is it bug free? No. Is it workable? I suspect that's an individual criteria, the definition of which differs. A number of people in this thread indicate that it is workable for them. However, this line of discussion suggests other questions: Will Logos 4 Mac ever be 100% bug free? No. Is Logos 4 Windows bug free? No. At some point, we'll declare it "bug free enough" and release that as a stable version.

Allen:

My first crash was when I was opening NLT after I had opened ESV and NASB in the same window.

My second crash was when I was opening various dictionary resources 4 of them.

And my third crash was when I was trying to display the interlinear in ESV.

All these happened today.  Each time loosing all work and windows I had opened at the time.

This is progress. Unfortunately, nobody else has reported these specific issues and you've neglected to upload your logs which means that, unless they happen for me (which they don't), it's impossible for me to determine the underlying cause of the issue and incredibly difficult to fix it. If you upload your logs (see the instructions in the FAQ, which is linked in my signature) I'll happily do what I can to track down the issue(s).

Director of Engineering for Enterprise and Operations

Posts 116
B. J. Clarke | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Aug 12 2010 3:47 PM

Allen,

If you go back and read the other posts, I think you will discover that your two questions were answered. They may not have been answered with the answers you were looking for, but I do believe that other members of the forum took the time to at least try to answer your questions.

Anyway, I don't want to rankle you. I suppose we could debate all night whether your questions were or were not answered. But such a debate wouldn't really get us any closer to solving your current problem with the software.

So, let's try to move forward to actually finding a solution. I am not a programmer so I do not have any expertise to offer on why the problems you mentioned are happening to you. 

However, I do know how you can move toward a positive solution. Pardon the doctor analogy again, but it just makes sense here. If you verbally describe to the doctor what your symptoms are he may not be able to know what is causing the problem without an X-Ray or an MRI. These tools enable him to get a look at what's going on inside so that he can pinpoint the problem.

Likewise, when you post your logs it is like giving the developers an X-Ray or MRI of what is going on inside the program so that they can pinpoint the source of the problem.

If you look at the main page of the L4 Mac Forum, you will notice the second item down lists a post that has to do with how to report bugs and send logs to the developers. Joe Miller did an excellent tutorial video to explain how to do this. 

It would only take you about 5-7 minutes max to post your logs and send them. If this 5 minutes or so puts you on the road to finding a fix, I'm sure you would agree that it is time well spent. It couldn't hurt to try. Why not send the devs "an MRI" of your problems in L4M?

Posts 21
Allen | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Aug 12 2010 3:48 PM

Jason York,

I realize that using software is a choice.  And that Logos 4 is in development.  However don't forget Logos 3 was not sold as a software in development.  I have spent hundreds and hundreds of dollars on Logos software ( over $1000 but less than $2000) so your insinuation to using Logos is a choice is not helpful...

Also, I'm not sure but I think L3 for Mac came after Intel chips for Apple...............

Also, I did not realize that my raising the issue of L3 not being finished and L4 after 10 months still having major problems is "wanting things right away"... If your time line of 2006 is correct for the mac software until now August 2010 then I think 4 years is not being impatient for a final mac product... which to my knowledge, we do not have as of this date.

Posts 757
Fr. Charles R. Matheny | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Aug 12 2010 3:56 PM

Well done Mr. Clark, very well done.

Rusty+

Posts 208
Paul Gisbourne | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Aug 12 2010 4:04 PM

Allen:
 

I will give you today's specifics...

My first crash was when I was opening NLT after I had opened ESV and NASB in the same window.

My second crash was when I was opening various dictionary resources 4 of them.

And my third crash was when I was trying to display the interlinear in ESV.

All these happened today.  Each time loosing all work and windows I had opened at the time.

 

Hi Allen,

I'm sorry to hear that you are finding L4Mac difficult to use, if not unusable at times. I too have seen the posts regarding the crashes that people have been experiencing during their use of L4Mac.

However personally I haven't experienced the crashes that you have outlined or others that have posted on here. For me I find L4Mac to very useable, like others I do sermon prep with the product, as well as research work for essays and daily personal study. Furthermore, I don't run a windows parallel, exclusively using L4Mac. 

I joined the ride some way down the Alpha process and have been amazed at the rate of development of the program.

I feel your being a little over critical if you expect a fully functional stable program within 10-12months, it just doesn't happen. It is also worth bearing in mind that L4Mac has been a complete rewrite from the ground up, and the Mac side of things though sharing the same base code has to have its UI written from scratch. These aren't quick easy things to achieve.

 

Yeah frustrations come in and like others have said, including Cameron and David, post your logs. Let the development team help you and everyone else to get L4Mac more stable. It is far better to be a part of the process than to be moaning about it.

In fact I think it was an incredibly brave decision by Logos to halt production of the previous Mac product and go grounds up on a rewrite, not only that, but to do all this in the public domain. Each day we find and report the issues we face we are all helping to speed along the process and create a better product.

Every Blessing

Paul

Posts 40
Richard Teschendorf | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Aug 12 2010 4:13 PM

I feel your frustration, but suggest you document your crashes per the instructions provided as they be unique to your system.  Personally, I use L4 for Mac several times a day and rarely (and I mean RARELY) experience a crash.  I haven't had to report a bug in many months.  So...the product is already pretty stable for some users.  Note: I am perhaps more patient because my Logos experience just started last November with an early alpha.  I don't have your history with their earlier product(s).

Posts 456
Roger Feenstra | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Aug 12 2010 4:25 PM

Some things in life we simply have to get over.  It's Logos 4 now, Allen.  Post your logs please and move on.

Elder/Pastor, Hope Now Bible Church, Fresno CA

Posts 15805
Forum MVP
Keep Smiling 4 Jesus :) | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Aug 12 2010 5:50 PM

Allen:

My first crash was when I was opening NLT after I had opened ESV and NASB in the same window.

My second crash was when I was opening various dictionary resources 4 of them.

And my third crash was when I was trying to display the interlinear in ESV.

Appreciate crash descriptions, wish zip file(s) were posted with log files, especially console messages.  Forum http://community.logos.com/forums/t/6731.aspx has excellent log posting tutorial.  Console Messages includes Logos logging messages and Mac OS X diagnostic information, needed to determine if crashes have different causes.

One possible cause for all 3 crashes is too many programs open => forum http://community.logos.com/forums/p/21204/159177.aspx => Kudos to Logos Development "Doctors", learned to monitor Active Memory usage.  Already configured Activity Monitor to show memory usage on dock - now pay attention to green and yellow sizes - if Green too small, spinning beach balls happen.  If Yellow too large (many open programs), can easily crash Logos 4 Mac.

By the way, many years ago learned "Never let anything mechanical know you are in a hurry."

Allen:
Does anyone else feel frustration and disappointment with Logos for Mac?  I am not criticizing Logos' intentions, but intentions do not equal product satisfaction.

Personally No.  Do remember disappointment from initial Logos for Mac announcement and shipping 1.* version.  Initially delayed purchasing Logos 4 Upgrade since not sure if wanted to participate in Alpha testing.  Hindsight 20/20 - should have upgraded to Logos 4 sooner; glad Logos extended Logos 4 Upgrade pricing promotion.  Like some other active Logos 4 Mac forum posters, have enjoyed Alpha and Beta releases - amazed by Logos 4 Mac feature exposure and overall usability.  Wiki has Logos 4 Mac History page => http://wiki.logos.com/Mac_Beta_Release_Notes_and_History  Also quite Thankful for licensing change so a library user can use Logos 4 on a variety of devices: iMac, iPad, iPhone, & Windows.

 

Keep Smiling Smile

Posts 8
Mike Zimmer | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Aug 12 2010 5:52 PM

Allen, If you could post your logs, I am convinced that the developer team will get on it. I have not experienced crashes you have encountered. I would be upset as well, if I were to lose the work that I had done. This week alone we have had two beta releases. I have beta tested other software and find Logos to be very responsive when the logs are posted. It could be something unique to your installation that they can help you sort out. 

Posts 21
Allen | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Aug 12 2010 7:14 PM

Roger,

If my post irritates you, I'm sorry.  Please ignore them.  You don't have to read them or reply to them.

Posts 14
Neal Price | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Aug 12 2010 9:00 PM

........  and after several people practically begging you to post logs, we still wait .......

 

I had issues as well this week, but the developers jumped on my issues very quickly after I posted my logs.  It takes a minute, but it's the ONLY way they can effectively help us.

 

We help them help us...

 

I'm VERY new to Logos, so I can't relate to what everyone is talking about with L3 and Libronix and all of that stuff.  All I can say is I am VERY pleased.

Posts 43
R. Pared | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Aug 12 2010 9:20 PM

Since it was mentioned that often people don't post their good news, but simply their problems, I'll go on the record and state that I have been using Logos 4 Mac exclusively for the last several months and have found it to be very useable for my needs.  Sure a few crashes from time to time, which is to be expected.  I posted my logs and am very appreciative to the development team who responded to many of them personally.  I echo the amazement that we have such direct contact with them via this forum.  I hope that continues for the foreseeable future.  Thank you again Mac Developers.

Posts 66
Thomas Wooded | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Aug 12 2010 10:31 PM

OK, my two cents...

I had a stable, working version of another company's bible software that was made only for the Mac.  When I got a newer laptop that did not run the older Mac OS 9, I had to decide... do I buy a new version of what I had, or look at something new?

Thank God I found some info somewhere about Logos and checked it out!  As a currently enrolled theology student, I decided to take some of the financial aid I had left after tuition and invest it in the Scholar's Library.  (More expensive than upgrading my old software, but it was the right way to go!)

I went into this with eyes open.  I saw that I could use the old Libronix 1 for Mac, or I could try the Alpha of L4 for Mac.  Since my new Mac laptop runs Windows as well as Mac OS, I installed both the Mac Alpha and the L4 for Windows version.  At first, the Mac Alpha was just kind of an unusable novelty.  But, as the Alphas continued to arrive every week or two, it got better and better.  By the time the Mac version went into Beta, I found that I just didn't need to use the Windows version any more.  My Mac Beta copy does what I want it to, and doesn't crash very often.  (I have commercial release software of other kinds and browsers that are the latest version that crash more than L4 for Mac does.)

Are there things that the Mac Beta doesn't do that I wish it did?  Sure.  Am I disappointed that some features like handouts will have to wait for the Mac?  Yes.

But, the Mac Beta I'm using now blows away the software I used to use and anything else that I looked into.

To the Mac Development Team:  Thanks for all the hard work.  L4 is awesome!  I can't wait to see what will be in the next Beta when it arrives in a week or two.*

*Updates every week or two!  How cool is that?

</rant> 

MacBook Pro 13" 2.53GHz Intel Core 2 Duo & 4GB RAM
MacOS 10.6.6 and Windows 7 Pro

Posts 128
Nathan | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Aug 12 2010 11:27 PM

Allen:
If my post irritates you, I'm sorry.  Please ignore them.  You don't have to read them or reply to them.

Ha!  Allen you got snookered into thinking that L4 Mac was a release version....because you don't take the time and effort to post your "logs" your bugs do not exist!  You have NO problems it is a figment of your imagination.  "Parity" is around the corner....  Hey just run the "learning to use Biblical Greek and Hebrew" videos...they work on the MAC version just exactly like they do on the PC version....

Try the  Changing LORD to Yahweh visual filter on the MAC version it works exactly as the PC version...  Notes are great...every two weeks you get to be a guinea pig.  Great let the Flames begin....  LogosMacHeads take your best shots....

How about the SIMPLEST of  additions to L4 MAC.

 

  1. VERY nit-picky suggestion: Hourglass/Wheel
  2. Bug A27: Footnotes are not clickable
  3. Bug A22.1 - citation picker field
  4. Bug A20 - Typing Reference In Bible Pane

Ok <grin> I'm being abrasive.  I DO understand his frustration.  So don't just FLAME him for goodness sake!  Yes I like the MAC version in some ways way better (can you say contrasty).  But if you want to use ALL of the power of L4 you gotta run a VM on your mac.... Parity someday..oh wait L4 PC is still in development.  I'm glad I'm not on the L4 Mac programming team, so much pressure!

 

Posts 1956
Donovan R. Palmer | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Aug 12 2010 11:46 PM

Allen:
Logos 3 for Mac was never finished (broken promise) and after a year of Logos 4 for Mac it now continually crashes (Beta 5).

Allen - I think if you search these forums, your sentiments were particularly echoed at the turn of the year by many Mac users. There was great disappointment that version 1.2 was not going to be finished after years of waiting, then to add further to the dynamic L4 for Windows was being released with a promise that L4 Mac would eventually achieve feature parity. Given the history of L4 Mac, this news was greeted with some level of dismay and in old internet terms 'flames'. (though we Christians don't do that do we?) Wink

This year though has seen HUGE progress, more so than anything in the history of development of Logos for Mac of any version. With that many, including myself, can see this product becoming more mature.  What is obvious is that behind the scenes Logos has been able to assemble a development team to genuinely be a player in the market. Before with L4 Mac, they were using a sub-contractor to do their development.

I'm pretty fussy any more about buggy software and hence my move to the Mac platform. I just want my computer to work, even if that means I pay a bit more.  If the 'gold release' of L4 for Mac is buggy, I will be one of the first to express my disappointment.  However, given we are now in the beta stage, I accept that there are bugs and am lending a hand in a limited way to help squash them.

While this may be 'hope deferred' given your valid feelings of frustration, I genuinely think by the end of the year we will be turning a significant corner in Logos on the Mac platform. I only think it is going to get better as the Mac market continues to experience growth.  My suggestion is hang in there as I believe a full, stable release of the software is not that far away.

Posts 128
Nathan | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Aug 13 2010 12:00 AM

Donovan R. Palmer:

I'm pretty fussy any more about buggy software and hence my move to the Mac platform. I just want my computer to work, even if that means I pay a bit more.  If the 'gold release' of L4 for Mac is buggy, I will be one of the first to express my disappointment.  However, given we are now in the beta stage, I accept that there are bugs and am lending a hand in a limited way to help squash them.

While this may be 'hope deferred' given your valid feelings of frustration, I genuinely think by the end of the year we will be turning a significant corner in Logos on the Mac platform. I only think it is going to get better as the Mac market continues to experience growth.  My suggestion is hang in there as I believe a full, stable release of the software is not that far away.

SERIOUSLY...thank you for a concise realistic response.  Kudos  

 

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