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J.R. Miller | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Jun 30 2009 12:29 PM

Chris Roberts:
Peterson translated into a paraphrase. He worked with the Greek but his method of bringing the language into English was to paraphrase it. He did not try to form a literal or a dynamic equivalent translation, he tried to form a paraphrase translation. The fact that he worked from the Greek does not make the final result any less of a paraphrase.
The problem is that your thesis does not fit the facts.  Peterson did more than simply paraphrase, he added entire passages based on theological assumption, not paraphrastic meaning.  

I think a superior paraphrase available on Logos of course is...

"THE NEW TESTAMENT

An Expanded Translation"

by  KENNETH S. WUEST

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Ted Hans | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Jun 30 2009 12:29 PM

George Somsel:
Then there is Re 13.10 and 14.12 where they render "Here is a call for the endurance ..." when there is not a call for anything.  What it says is ῟Ωδέ ἐστιν ἡ ὑπομονὴ ... "Here is the ὑπομονὴ ..."  The problem is that they don't realize that ὑπομονὴ can mean anything other than "endurance."  In these passages it refers to what has preceded, viz., in Re 13.10 the certainty that God has a decree regarding one's destiny which will be brought to pass and in 14.12 referring back to the previous verse that the doom of those forces which oppose God.  It is virtually equivalent to "confession" or even "creed." No translation is without fault -- not even if I were to make one.

George can you hurry up with your Revelation Commentary? I would love to see/dig into your take on Revelation. How far have you done into your writing?

Sir T 

 

 

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Matthew C Jones | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Jun 30 2009 12:42 PM

George,

How does the Biblia Sacra Utriusque Testamenti  render "God-colors?  (Oh, there I go again Reversing my readings!)

No, seriously, How can you say this is worthy of the classification as a translation when he creates meaning out of thin air and jettisons what was in the originals. This is paraphrase at best or trying to sell to itching ears a "new gospel." And you know what the Apostle Paul has to say about that!

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George Somsel | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Jun 30 2009 12:47 PM

MatthewCJones:

Kinda sounds like a Rainbow Bible in pride week. I believe I will learn a lot more sitting at the feet of Erasmus & Luther than reading this. 

Jesus says our works should bring glory to God. The Message says WE are the center of attention. Quite a diversion from Jesus' message would't you say?

I don't think The Message was written for the likes of either you or me.  If you don't like it, don't use it, but don't knock it. 

Where does The Message say that we are the center of attention?  I haven't read all that much of it so I must have missed it.

george
gfsomsel

יְמֵי־שְׁנוֹתֵינוּ בָהֶם שִׁבְעִים שָׁנָה וְאִם בִּגְבוּרֹת שְׁמוֹנִים שָׁנָה וְרָהְבָּם עָמָל וָאָוֶן

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Bohuslav Wojnar | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Jun 30 2009 1:05 PM

George Somsel:
Even such a translation as the New Revised Standard Version which is actually a pretty good translation has things about it that drive me up the wall.  While they are correct that ἀδελφός doesn't simply refer to males, it really irritates me to have "brothers and sisters" continually shoved in my face.  It's political correctness run amok.

That is why I think, from the pastor's perspective, that it is better to have more literal translation of such word like "brother" and in the footnote having the explanation of the broader meaning than what we have in English/Czech etc. In preaching/teaching I can just mention the footnote to help people to cross the language barrier. NET Bible does it in just the opposite way, using brothers and sisters and in the footnote explaining the matter.

1:13 I do not want you to be unaware,28 brothers and sisters,29 that I often intended to come to you

28 28 sn The expression “I do not want you to be unaware [Grk ignorant]” also occurs in 1 Cor 10:1; 12:1; 1 Thess 4:13. Paul uses the phrase to signal that he is about to say something very important.
29 29 tn Grk “brothers,” but the Greek word may be used for “brothers and sisters” or “fellow Christians” as here (cf. BDAG 18 s.v. ἀδελφός 1, where considerable nonbiblical evidence for the plural ἀδελφοί [adelphoi] meaning “brothers and sisters” is cited).
Biblical Studies Press. (2006; 2006). The NET Bible First Edition; Bible. English. NET Bible.; The NET Bible (Ro 1:13). Biblical Studies Press.

Either or, I am the big fan of the good footnotes. I appreciate George your explanation. Thank you.

Bohuslav

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George Somsel | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Jun 30 2009 1:09 PM

MatthewCJones:

Am I implying that our relationship with God is dependent upon our thinking the right thoughts? Yep. Believing God is correct about us being sinners, hopelessly lost without His grace and trusting Him to be true to His promise. That is "right" thinking. It takes faith and humility to bridge that.

As for the rest of your statement, I thought that was what I said. Sorry if it sounded opposite

When you die and go to heaven and I follow you sometime later, be sure to give me the answers to the entrance exam so I can bone up ahead of time.

george
gfsomsel

יְמֵי־שְׁנוֹתֵינוּ בָהֶם שִׁבְעִים שָׁנָה וְאִם בִּגְבוּרֹת שְׁמוֹנִים שָׁנָה וְרָהְבָּם עָמָל וָאָוֶן

Posts 9947
George Somsel | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Jun 30 2009 1:11 PM

Ted Hans:

George Somsel:
Then there is Re 13.10 and 14.12 where they render "Here is a call for the endurance ..." when there is not a call for anything.  What it says is ῟Ωδέ ἐστιν ἡ ὑπομονὴ ... "Here is the ὑπομονὴ ..."  The problem is that they don't realize that ὑπομονὴ can mean anything other than "endurance."  In these passages it refers to what has preceded, viz., in Re 13.10 the certainty that God has a decree regarding one's destiny which will be brought to pass and in 14.12 referring back to the previous verse that the doom of those forces which oppose God.  It is virtually equivalent to "confession" or even "creed." No translation is without fault -- not even if I were to make one.

George can you hurry up with your Revelation Commentary? I would love to see/dig into your take on on Revelation. How far have you done into your writing?

Sir T 

 

I'm still working on the introduction.  Of course, I have notes on virtually every verse in the book, but I'm continually adding to them.  Also, writing this is like pulling hen's teeth.  I'm afraid I don't write all that well.

george
gfsomsel

יְמֵי־שְׁנוֹתֵינוּ בָהֶם שִׁבְעִים שָׁנָה וְאִם בִּגְבוּרֹת שְׁמוֹנִים שָׁנָה וְרָהְבָּם עָמָל וָאָוֶן

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Matthew C Jones | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Jun 30 2009 1:11 PM

If we are looking for the most inclusive tent to have camp meetig under we could all join the Baha'i faith. Their temple in Chicago has a stained glass window for each of the world's major religions. They welcome Muslim, Christian, Jew, Buddist and so on.

The one true God (of the Bible) is a jealous God and is not willing to share His rightful throne with any other "god." I wonder just what audience The Messege was written for. I go to a medical doctor to get an accurate diagnosis, not a false clean bill of health. A sugar-coated placebo should not be labeled as a RX to heal our ills. And a flowery dramatic paraphrase shouldn't be passed off as an accurate translation.

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George Somsel | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Jun 30 2009 1:14 PM

Joe Miller:
Chris Roberts:
Peterson translated into a paraphrase. He worked with the Greek but his method of bringing the language into English was to paraphrase it. He did not try to form a literal or a dynamic equivalent translation, he tried to form a paraphrase translation. The fact that he worked from the Greek does not make the final result any less of a paraphrase.
The problem is that your thesis does not fit the facts.  Peterson did more than simply paraphrase, he added entire passages based on theological assumption, not paraphrastic meaning.  

All right !  Prove it.  List the passages where he has added entire passages.  Don't refer me to your blog since I don't want to wade through that.  Also, don't compare it to other translations.  It needs to be compared to the original.

george
gfsomsel

יְמֵי־שְׁנוֹתֵינוּ בָהֶם שִׁבְעִים שָׁנָה וְאִם בִּגְבוּרֹת שְׁמוֹנִים שָׁנָה וְרָהְבָּם עָמָל וָאָוֶן

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George Somsel | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Jun 30 2009 1:18 PM

MatthewCJones:

George,

How does the Biblia Sacra Utriusque Testamenti  render "God-colors? 

Rather than simply give you a snippet, here is the verse

οὕτως λαμψάτω τὸ φῶς ὑμῶν ἔμπροσθεν τῶν ἀνθρώπων, ὅπως ἴδωσιν ὑμῶν τὰ καλὰ ἔργα καὶ δοξάσωσιν τὸν πατέρα ὑμῶν τὸν ἐν τοῖς οὐρανοῖς.

george
gfsomsel

יְמֵי־שְׁנוֹתֵינוּ בָהֶם שִׁבְעִים שָׁנָה וְאִם בִּגְבוּרֹת שְׁמוֹנִים שָׁנָה וְרָהְבָּם עָמָל וָאָוֶן

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Matthew C Jones | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Jun 30 2009 1:34 PM

George Somsel:

MatthewCJones:

George,

How does the Biblia Sacra Utriusque Testamenti  render "God-colors? 

 

Rather than simply give you a snippet, here is the verse

οὕτως λαμψάτω τὸ φῶς ὑμῶν ἔμπροσθεν τῶν ἀνθρώπων, ὅπως ἴδωσιν ὑμῶν τὰ καλὰ ἔργα καὶ δοξάσωσιν τὸν πατέρα ὑμῶν τὸν ἐν τοῖς οὐρανοῖς.

Just as I suspected.

No mention of God-COLORS.

As for wasting my time proving the Message is an inferior rendering,  I also know better than to trust the New World Translation (based on Wescott & Hort's work.) I don't mind reading divergent works for the informational value but don't embrace the scholarship or motives quite so quickly

 

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George Somsel | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Jun 30 2009 1:39 PM

MatthewCJones:

If we are looking for the most inclusive tent to have camp meetig under we could all join the Baha'i faith. Their temple in Chicago has a stained glass window for each of the world's major religions. They welcome Muslim, Christian, Jew, Buddist and so on.

The one true God (of the Bible) is a jealous God and is not willing to share His rightful throne with any other "god." I wonder just what audience The Messege was written for. I go to a medical doctor to get an accurate diagnosis, not a false clean bill of health. A sugar-coated placebo should not be labeled as a RX to heal our ills. And a flowery dramatic paraphrase shouldn't be passed off as an accurate translation.

How many verses have you compared to the original to come to that conclusion.  While we're at it, what is your level of ability in Hebrew, Aramaic and Greek?

george
gfsomsel

יְמֵי־שְׁנוֹתֵינוּ בָהֶם שִׁבְעִים שָׁנָה וְאִם בִּגְבוּרֹת שְׁמוֹנִים שָׁנָה וְרָהְבָּם עָמָל וָאָוֶן

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Matthew C Jones | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Jun 30 2009 1:56 PM

Show me ANY manuscript in Hebrew, Aramaic or Greek that says God-COLORS. I will even settle for a Papal bull.  It just isn't there.

As for my abilities in the original languages, I will forever be a lowly student. I began my Greek  studies in Bible college 30+ years ago. My mother has a better handle on Hebrew than I ever will. But I will keep on digging, for there is much gold buried in those precious words.

My trust is in God's Holy Spirit that indwells all believers and His promise to those who diligently seek Him.

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George Somsel | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Jun 30 2009 2:01 PM

MatthewCJones:

George Somsel:

MatthewCJones:

George,

How does the Biblia Sacra Utriusque Testamenti  render "God-colors? 

 

Rather than simply give you a snippet, here is the verse

οὕτως λαμψάτω τὸ φῶς ὑμῶν ἔμπροσθεν τῶν ἀνθρώπων, ὅπως ἴδωσιν ὑμῶν τὰ καλὰ ἔργα καὶ δοξάσωσιν τὸν πατέρα ὑμῶν τὸν ἐν τοῖς οὐρανοῖς.

 Just as I suspected.

No mention of God-COLORS.

As for wasting my time proving the Message is an inferior rendering,  I also know better than to trust the New World Translation (based on Wescott & Hort's work.) I don't mind reading divergent works for the informational value but don't embrace the scholarship or motives quite so quickly

 

I would suppose that the term "God-colors" refers to gang colors by which members of the group recognize who belongs to their group and who does not.  If they are not the identifying mark of those who belong to God, then what are τὰ καλὰ ἔργα?

george
gfsomsel

יְמֵי־שְׁנוֹתֵינוּ בָהֶם שִׁבְעִים שָׁנָה וְאִם בִּגְבוּרֹת שְׁמוֹנִים שָׁנָה וְרָהְבָּם עָמָל וָאָוֶן

Posts 9947
George Somsel | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Jun 30 2009 2:27 PM

MatthewCJones:

Show me ANY manuscript in Hebrew, Aramaic or Greek that says God-COLORS. I will even settle for a Papal bull.  It just isn't there.

As for my abilities in the original languages, I will forever be a lowly student. I began my Greek  studies in Bible college 30+ years ago. My mother has a better handle on Hebrew than I ever will. But I will keep on digging, for there is much gold buried in those precious words.

My trust is in God's Holy Spirit that indwells all believers and His promise to those who diligently seek Him.

I thought as much.  You are criticising the work of a brother without the requisite knowledge to speak with any authority.  It reminds of when the RSV came out with its translation of Is 7.14 referring to the mother as a "young woman" rather than a "virgin."  The publisher received copies of the RSV with bullet holes.  I'll bet they were not shipped by those who actually knew Hebrew.

I can't show you a papal bull.  He only keeps cows and has them artificially inseminated.

george
gfsomsel

יְמֵי־שְׁנוֹתֵינוּ בָהֶם שִׁבְעִים שָׁנָה וְאִם בִּגְבוּרֹת שְׁמוֹנִים שָׁנָה וְרָהְבָּם עָמָל וָאָוֶן

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Bohuslav Wojnar | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Jun 30 2009 2:35 PM

George Somsel:
I can't show you a papal bull.  He only keeps cows and has them artificially inseminated.

Hey, I worked back in the times of the communist regime here as a veterinarian, doing the artificial insemination. Don't you dare to touch that profession...Cool

Bohuslav

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George Somsel | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Jun 30 2009 3:05 PM

Bohuslav Wojnar:

George Somsel:
I can't show you a papal bull.  He only keeps cows and has them artificially inseminated.

Hey, I worked back in the times of the communist regime here as a veterinarian, doing the artificial insemination. Don't you dare to touch that profession...Cool

I assume that what you say is true, but it's still a "howler."

george
gfsomsel

יְמֵי־שְׁנוֹתֵינוּ בָהֶם שִׁבְעִים שָׁנָה וְאִם בִּגְבוּרֹת שְׁמוֹנִים שָׁנָה וְרָהְבָּם עָמָל וָאָוֶן

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Bohuslav Wojnar | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Jun 30 2009 3:18 PM

George Somsel:

Hey, I worked back in the times of the communist regime here as a veterinarian, doing the artificial insemination. Don't you dare to touch that profession...Cool

I assume that what you say is true, but it's still a "howler."

Well, it was just a comment on your "artificial insemination" joke. It is difficult to understand for you on the other side of the ocean, but in our movement all the ministers had to have a secular job, since our denomination had not been recognized by the communists untill the year of 1989. The church I pastor however is going to have the 100 year anniversary next year. Our movement had been persecuted by both, the *** and the communists. All of the theological education in those times had been done in the underground. Paradoxically sometimes we had more freedom than so called recognized denominations, where all the affairs had been decided by the communist commissars. Well, enough, I am glad those times are just gone, hopefully forever. Amen.

P.S. I don't know why, but where I wrote the IIWW regime, it put stars. I suppose it is because it is considered a bad word. I agree it is. Not the word, but the regime. From the pit of Hell.

Bohuslav

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Matthew C Jones | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Jun 30 2009 3:24 PM

George Somsel:

MatthewCJones:

Show me ANY manuscript in Hebrew, Aramaic or Greek that says God-COLORS. I will even settle for a Papal bull.  It just isn't there.

As for my abilities in the original languages, I will forever be a lowly student. I began my Greek  studies in Bible college 30+ years ago. My mother has a better handle on Hebrew than I ever will. But I will keep on digging, for there is much gold buried in those precious words.

My trust is in God's Holy Spirit that indwells all believers and His promise to those who diligently seek Him.

I thought as much.  You are criticising the work of a brother without the requisite knowledge to speak with any authority.  It reminds of when the RSV came out with its translation of Is 7.14 referring to the mother as a "young woman" rather than a "virgin."  The publisher received copies of the RSV with bullet holes.  I'll bet they were not shipped by those who actually knew Hebrew.

I can't show you a papal bull.  He only keeps cows and has them artificially inseminated.

The authority rests not in titles or degrees conferred by men one upon another. The authority rests intrinsically in the Word of God itself.   Incredible how one can embrace any "holy script" some person invents out of thin air.It is the duty of one propagating a new teaching to back it up. Even Jesus did miracles to confirm His authority.  I know guys with multiple (earned) doctorates that believe creation rests on the back of an elephant standing on a ...... you get the drift. 

I'll match your "dollar & a stack of donut holes" and raise you 4 ThDs  that I can get by with just walking with Jesus, indwelt by the Holy Spirit and diligently seeking to glorify the Father.  It's written in the Word.

BTW: I also know enough to reject "23 Minutes in Hell" and "Half Hour in Heaven"  I guess I am about as silly as the Bereans thinking I could check doctrines against the scriptures!

 

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George Somsel | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Jun 30 2009 4:24 PM

MatthewCJones:

George Somsel:

MatthewCJones:

George,

How does the Biblia Sacra Utriusque Testamenti  render "God-colors? 

 

Rather than simply give you a snippet, here is the verse

οὕτως λαμψάτω τὸ φῶς ὑμῶν ἔμπροσθεν τῶν ἀνθρώπων, ὅπως ἴδωσιν ὑμῶν τὰ καλὰ ἔργα καὶ δοξάσωσιν τὸν πατέρα ὑμῶν τὸν ἐν τοῖς οὐρανοῖς.

 

Just as I suspected.

No mention of God-COLORS.

As for wasting my time proving the Message is an inferior rendering,  I also know better than to trust the New World Translation (based on Wescott & Hort's work.) I don't mind reading divergent works for the informational value but don't embrace the scholarship or motives quite so quickly

 

But if you don't know the language, what makes you think you have the right to judge what is a correct translation and what is not?  It's always those who are ignorant of the facts who scream the loudest.

george
gfsomsel

יְמֵי־שְׁנוֹתֵינוּ בָהֶם שִׁבְעִים שָׁנָה וְאִם בִּגְבוּרֹת שְׁמוֹנִים שָׁנָה וְרָהְבָּם עָמָל וָאָוֶן

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