Who first Matthew 18:18

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David Ames | Forum Activity | Posted: Sun, Aug 22 2010 7:34 AM

Who first  Matthew 18:18

 

KJV Matt 18:18 Verily I say unto you, Whatsoever ye shall bind on earth shall be bound in heaven: and whatsoever ye shall loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.

 

Have checked 20 or so of the commentaries I have in LOGOS (300 more to go) and they all (so far) take the stand that WE tell HEAVEN what to do.

       

Are there any that take the other stand – that Heaven tells us what to do as in:

‘’Whatever is bound in heaven you will bind on earth’’

 

And how do I search for that? [because Heaven and earth are both listed twice both searches (bind NEAR earth BEFORE heaven) and (bind NEAR heaven BEFORE earth) get the same hits]

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Robert Pavich | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Aug 22 2010 7:52 AM

David,

I'd do two things:

I'd search my entire library for Matt 18:18

Then I might narrow the field down to Systematic Theologies with a collection.

There does seem to be some discussion on this; I got TONS of hits in my systematic theology collection...so i think that 's a good place to start....

I'm not sure that I've seen a commentary that says "we tell heaven what to do"...maybe that's just a shorthand way of saying a certain thing that I'm not getting.

 

Try the two searches, then see what you come up with....I'm sure that more forumites will have better suggestions.

 

Robert Pavich

For help go to the Wiki: http://wiki.logos.com/Table_of_Contents__

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Pierre-David Pfister | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Aug 22 2010 7:58 AM

Hi David,

You could check Carson's comments in the EBC on Matthew, although the comments are under Matt 16:19.

-Pierre

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DominicM | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Aug 22 2010 8:17 AM

The important thing is to keep the verse in context so  it doenst become a pretext, cant remember who said it but I like it..

The WBC says it the best for me while keeping the context,  I have take a screen shot incase you dont have it in your library

Never Deprive Anyone of Hope.. It Might Be ALL They Have

Posts 19
Locksmythe | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Aug 22 2010 9:59 AM

Excellent,

Dr. Fruchtenbaum's manuscript on prayer agrees with the importance of keeping verse 18 in context of Church discipline.

Yes

George

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Jack Hairston | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Aug 22 2010 1:48 PM

First, I note that the context is church discipline. Opinions have taken these verses out of context ("two or three, gathered") too many times.

Jesus says that heaven will endorse the decision. He did not say, "It will be bound in Heaven if you are correct."

Here is an example: When I arrived at my current congregation, I was invited to teach on a subject. During the discussion, I presented my opinion about a certain aspect. The congregation and its leaders decided that I was wrong, and so I became the Designated Heretic. The only thing I was allowed to help with was to manage the loudness of the sound system. It was the general opinion that I would leave, because I was continually in trouble. They were faithful, though, and never failed to cash my contribution check.

Three years later, I received a phone call from one of the elders to attend their next meeting. They asked me to serve as one of the elders. I have served in that capacity for twelve years. They say that I changed my opinion, but the truth is that they had changed theirs, and learned to trust me.

So if you are ever caught on the pointy end of that stick, accept the judgment, and live a faithful life before God. If they never change their opinion, continue to live faithfully anyway, supporting the goals of the kingdom.

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David Ames | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Aug 26 2010 1:34 PM

Do I understand correctly?

An Interlinear has the English but in the order of the original text.

[Such that the English words may not make sense as English sentences]  

[example Kurt Aland, Matthew Black, Carlo M. Martini et al., The Greek New Testament, Fourth Revised Edition (Interlinear With Morphology)]

 

And a Reverse Interlinear has the Greek or Hebrew in the order of the translation

[Example the KJV or the ESV] [And here the Greek or Hebrew words may not make sense as Greek or Hebrew sentences]

 

Which should I use? [and Why?]

Kurt Aland, Matthew Black, Carlo M. Martini et al., The Greek New Testament, [USB?]

Barbara Aland, Kurt Aland, Matthew Black et al., The Greek New Testament,  [Nestle 27?]

The Lexham Greek-English Interlinear New Testament,

 

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Robert Pavich | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Aug 26 2010 3:49 PM

David Ames:

Do I understand correctly?

An Interlinear has the English but in the order of the original text.

[Such that the English words may not make sense as English sentences]  

[example Kurt Aland, Matthew Black, Carlo M. Martini et al., The Greek New Testament, Fourth Revised Edition (Interlinear With Morphology)]

True

 

David Ames:

And a Reverse Interlinear has the Greek or Hebrew in the order of the translation

[Example the KJV or the ESV] [And here the Greek or Hebrew words may not make sense as Greek or Hebrew sentences]

Also true.

 

 

As to which you should use, I guess that would be a preference. In the Reverse Interlinear, the words are numbered to correspond to their original word order, and if you don't mind that...then that's a good way to go...

You could also use an interlinear and just know that it will read "weird" in English... :)

Robert Pavich

For help go to the Wiki: http://wiki.logos.com/Table_of_Contents__

Posts 323
Doug | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Aug 26 2010 5:19 PM

Robert Pavich:
You could also use an interlinear and just know that it will read "weird" in English... :)

Yes and learning much you will do.

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Jack Caviness | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Aug 27 2010 3:00 AM

David Ames:
Which should I use? [and Why?]

If you want to learn the Original Language, don't use any interlinear. They only make you think you are reading the original. You cannot avoid the translation, no matter how hard you try.

If you just want to read English with an occasional glimpse at the original, the the Reverse Interlinear will be more convenient.

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Robert M. Warren | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Aug 27 2010 5:23 PM

Doug:
Yes and learning much you will do.

You know, I've long suspected that YLT means Yoda's Literal Translation.

Windows 10 (L9 Beta) | Android 9 (phone - L9 Beta) | Fire OS 7 (tablet - L9 Stable)

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DIsciple II | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Aug 27 2010 5:51 PM

Robert M. Warren:

Doug:
Yes and learning much you will do.

You know, I've long suspected that YLT means Yoda's Literal Translation.

Big Smile

 

Posts 2846
David Ames | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Sep 19 2010 7:42 AM

RE: Who first  Matthew 18:18  (and 16:19)

 

Humans being human need to have things addressed very clearly and without possibility of misunderstanding.

 

Have spent much time since my last posts to this thread reading and reading on the subject – did not open all of the commentaries but did open many.

[It only took me a month to answer my own question and learn alot about Logos 4 in doing so]

 

William Hendriksen and Simon J. Kistemaker, vol. 9, New Testament Commentary : Exposition of the Gospel According to Matthew, New Testament Commentary, 651 (Grand Rapids: Baker Book House, 1953-2001).    States:

The assurance is given that whatever Peter, representing The Twelve (Matt. 16:19), or The Twelve (John 20:23), ultimately whatever the church (Matt. 18:18), binds on earth shall be and shall definitely remain bound in heaven; and similarly whatever Peter (etc.) looses on earth shall be and definitely remain loosed in heaven.611

 

But note the footnote Number 611:

611 Notice the use of perfect passive participles δεδεμένον and λελυμένον, after the copula ἔσται in each clause. To read these forms as periphrastics and then to interpret them as meaning that such beliefs and actions (and the persons who either keep clinging to them or abandon them) shall have been previously “bound” or “loosed” in heaven yields a very difficult and unnatural sense.

 

They note that the binding in Heaven first is a possible reading and dismiss it! As do many other commentaries.

 

But others back the stand that it must be bound or loosed in Heaven first

 

From the reading of:

Kurt Aland, Matthew Black, Carlo M. Martini et al., The Greek New Testament, Fourth Revised Edition (Interlinear With Morphology), Mt 16:19   And keeping just the English:

Matt 16:19 I will give to you the keys of the kingdom of the heavens and what if you might bind on the land will be+ +having been bound in the heavens and what if you might loose on the land will be+ +having been loosed in the heavens

 

From the readings of: [and others]

AMP | Mt 16:19 I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven; and whatever you bind (declare to be improper and unlawful) on earth must be what is already bound in heaven; and whatever you loose (declare lawful) on earth must be what is already loosed in heaven.

HCSB | Mt 16:19 I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven, and whatever you bind on earth is already bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth is already loosed in heaven.”

 

So IF [I did say if] I ever publish a translation of the Bible [and I will NOT do so]

[In today’s English as understood on the Street rather than only in the Universities]

[Just so there would be no misunderstanding of what came first]

I would word this as:

 

‘’ I will give you the keys to the kingdom of heaven.  Whatever is bound in heaven you will bind on earth.  Whatever is loosed in heaven you will loose on earth ‘’

 

[I did read all the comments in the Thread – Thank you – Some of the books listed are out of my price range but thanks]

 

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DIsciple II | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Sep 19 2010 3:10 PM

DominicM:
The important thing is to keep the verse in context so  it doenst become a pretext, cant remember who said it but I like it..

Ran the following google search on: Keep it in context so it doesn't become a pretext     as I have heard this before but can't remember the source.  The first hit i came up with was an article dealing with the very verses the OP asked about.   So I'd recommend the OP run the same search for some further thought.

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Jack Caviness | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Sep 20 2010 2:51 AM

Andrew McKenzie:
Ran the following google search on: Keep it in context so it doesn't become a pretext     as I have heard this before but can't remember the source. 

The first place I remember seeing that quote was in The Interpretation of Prophecy by Paul Lee Tan (long a), but I don't know that it was original with him.

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TCBlack | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Sep 20 2010 10:06 AM

DominicM:
The important thing is to keep the verse in context so  it doenst become a pretext, cant remember who said it but I like it..

I remember a speaker years ago (Howard Hendricks?) chastising hundreds of pastor's at a conference with, "Any text without a context is a pretext for a prooftext!"  And then he added, "Don't do it!"  Or something very akin to that.

Hmm Sarcasm is my love language. Obviously I love you. 

Posts 2846
David Ames | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Sep 20 2010 10:15 AM

Some one wrote: "Jesus says that heaven will endorse the decision. He did not say, "It will be bound in Heaven if you are correct.""

Or did He?  Yes, Many Many Many [most?] of the resources in Logos so state.  BUT others imply that if you are not correct it will not be bound. [I listed three.]

My month long study leads me to the minority view - that we need to check with heaven first.   [I read all comments in all resources on Mat 16:19 and 18:18]

For example: In 1521 the leader of the only legal Christian Church at that time, Pope Leo X, excommunicated a Heretic - Martin Luther. - Today half the Christians think Mr Luther a hero.

Is Mr Luther a Heretic because that is what the leader of the only legal Christian Church at that time bound?  [In a A Church Discipline Case ]

Or should that leader have checked with heaven first?  {We need a section where we [the LOGOS community] can get into these subjects}

LOGOS Question: What are the time relationships in Mat 16:19 and 18:18 in the Greek between heaven and earth?

The Greek New Testament, Fourth Revised Edition implies Heaven "+having been loosed in the heavens" first. [Interlinear]

[Please lead me to a resource that discusses this - something in Platinum or lower please (or under $35)]

 

 

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MJ. Smith | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Sep 20 2010 11:59 AM

David Ames:

Is Mr Luther a Heretic because that is what the leader of the only legal Christian Church at that time bound?  [In a A Church Discipline Case ]

Or should that leader have checked with heaven first?  {We need a section where we [the LOGOS community] can get into these subjects}

Logos very specifically does does not have such a section. History has shown very strongly that some people become abusive when such threads were allowed. Please don't try to push against the limits - they are, unfortunately, necessary. (And, yes, I was one frequently involved in such threads).

Orthodox Bishop Hilarion Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."

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David Ames | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Sep 20 2010 4:00 PM

MJ. Smith:

Logos very specifically does does not have such a section. History has shown very strongly that some people become abusive when such threads were allowed. Please don't try to push against the limits - they are, unfortunately, necessary. (And, yes, I was one frequently involved in such threads).

I will drop this subject.  It has taken all of my study time for a month.

I have had my say and will sit out but will read any other replies

[If I stepped on any one's toes I am sorry and I ask for Mat 18:22]

Thank you for your comments

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MJ. Smith | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Sep 20 2010 4:44 PM

David Ames:
[If I stepped on any one's toes I am sorry and I ask for Mat 18:22]

I don't believe that anyone's toes are squashed. It is a matter of perception - that the no theological discussion rule is "enforced" fairly.

Orthodox Bishop Hilarion Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."

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