A new type of pre-pub - it isn't in print yet!

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Alain Maashe | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Sep 5 2010 10:04 PM

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This is intended to be constructive. If I am to invest $700 on an untested product, there are some hard questions that I would like to see answered.

 

While my heart longs after a commentary like the ECC, my head is asking whether the series can reach its very very ambitious goal and do something that no series has been able to achieve (I am not referring to the print versus digital idea).

 

The series intends to be scholar and technical (“regularly cited in academic works, discussed at conferences, and subject to rigorous scholarly review… ready to engage in rigorous critical scholarship”) but also non-technical at the same time (“accessible enough that it would enrich the Bible study of anyone who wanted to use it to understand God’s Word more deeply”).

 

The reason why a commentary series with similar goals has never been published is pretty simple, it is very difficult if not impossible to make a commentary that will be cutting-edge, advance the scholarly discussion, be useful to specialists in the various fields and at the same time not intimidate the “uninitiated”. It is hard to have not one but dozens and dozens of scholars turn complex discussions of ancient Hebrew, Aramaic, Greek and cognate languages, textual criticism, the finer points of archeology, comparative literature and other extra biblical material  into something accessible to “anyone who wanted to use it to understand God’s Word more deeply”.

 

Some of us, after years of seminary education still need help to understand contributions from the various fields of biblical studies reported in technical commentaries. I really doubt that not only one writer but a large group of scholars will be able to do something that no one has done before and successfully  make very technical issues accessible to the masses (without diluting it).

 

My fear is that the various audiences targeted by the EEC will make it “Jack of all trades and master of none”. To satisfy the scholar, a commentary on Luke will probably have to be as detailed (and massive) as the standard of today (Bock two volumes in BECNT is considered by many to be the standard). Should I mention others books with the volumes in the NICOT, ICC, AYBC, HCOT and so on? I am aware of the fact that size is not all, but size will be involved if a commentary wants to satisfactorily deal with the current issues in “critical scholarship” and advance the discussion in order to be “regularly cited in academic works, discussed at conferences, and subject to rigorous scholarly review”.

 

This is already a problem without even including the added length necessitated by the exposition of the text, theological discussions, and various helps for “sermon preparation”.

 

A solution (if you can call if a solution) might be to have a huge volumes or multi-volumes with sections serving scholars, pastors, and your “average” Christian respectively.

The problem with this solution is that the buyer might have to justify buying a commentary that only has 1/3 to 1/2 of useful content (I doubt that many “regular” Christians will be interested in a detailed discussion of Q or a comparison of Hittites and Assyrian suzerain-vassal treaties and their impact on the structure of Deuteronomy).

 

By the grace of God, I have numerous commentaries on each book of the Bible. However, the commentaries most useful for academic research are seldom also useful for preparing a message or devotional time. I also found that I turn to various specialized commentaries depending on what I seek to accomplish and that I avoid the “jack of all trades” most of the time.

I am not confident that a single commentary will replace Hamilton (NICOT), Wenham (WBC) on the technical side, supplants Ross’ Creation and Blessings for exposition, and overtake Hughes (PTWC) for preaching.

 

Another factor that will make it difficult is that few scholars are equally competent in technical issues, exegesis, exposition/theology, and preaching (something that each of the authors will need to be).

 

While I greatly respect the proposed authors, some of them have not necessarily distinguished themselves as leading experts or authorities in the specific book they intend to write on. While it does not necessarily means that they cannot write a good commentary, it makes me question whether or not it is realistic to expect their work (for some the first publication of commentary) to become I quote “ a scholarly caliber [commentary] that … would be regularly cited in academic works, discussed at conferences, and subject to rigorous scholarly review”

 

I believe that Logos will have to sell many of us on the feasibility of such a project (with something more than a clever marketing pitch) and provide concrete evidence that its very ambitious goals can be reached (something that would satisfy me greatly).

There is a reason why no series has every accomplished what Logos proposes to do (especially with single author commentaries), I would like to see more details on how exactly Logos intends to do the almost impossible. I would then gladly put $700 towards the acquisition of such a groundbreaking resource. Yes I am skeptical, but I want to believe my heart.

Alain

Posts 8660
TCBlack | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Sep 6 2010 5:52 AM

 

Alain Mashe:
I believe that Logos will have to sell many of us on the feasibility of such a project (with something more than a clever marketing pitch) and provide concrete evidence that its very ambitious goals can be reached (something that would satisfy me greatly).
 
There is a reason why no series has every accomplished what Logos proposes to do (especially with single author commentaries), I would like to see more details on how exactly Logos intends to do the almost impossible. I would then gladly put $700 towards the acquisition of such a groundbreaking resource. Yes I am skeptical, but I want to believe my heart.

Good post Alain, excellent questions and analysis of the situation.  All I can say at the moment is that we should be able to see some of this in the previews and review sections that are, according to Dan, forthcoming.    It is those preview sections that are going to make or break the deal for many people including myself.

Hmm Sarcasm is my love language. Obviously I love you. 

Posts 8660
TCBlack | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Sep 6 2010 6:06 AM

 

William Varner:
I am a contributor to the EEC. I think that it is more than just another commentary -
Indeed, welcome!  I'm glad you took the time to post.  We are all excited about this opportunity.  Frankly I really want the series because it promises to be unrestrained in breadth and depth (due to page counts).   
William Varner:
I already have Platinum, and I don't know where I would put all the smaller resources in Portfolio anyway.
Hmm.  I was hoping you'd get Logos unobtanium (all 10000+ resources)  But  if you're already struggling to use more than Platinum.  I'm not sure it'd be worth it.   (Quite a marketing slogan for  Platinum though, "The foundation for the EEC" or "EEC: built with Scholars Platinum".  
William Varner:
Questions will remain, of course. No process is ideal and perfect. But the professionalism that marks Logos has been obvious to us.

I'm glad to see that this is visible on the author's side as well.  As a customer I've often seen the professionalism and just plain Christ likeness of the folks at Logos.  I'm quite pleased to hear that it extends into the back room bargaining sessions.

Hmm Sarcasm is my love language. Obviously I love you. 

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Matthew C Jones | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Sep 6 2010 8:38 AM

Alain Maashe:
My fear is that the various audiences targeted by the EEC will make it “Jack of all trades and master of none”. To satisfy the scholar, a commentary on Luke will probably have to be as detailed (and massive) as the standard of today (Bock two volumes in BECNT is considered by many to be the standard). Should I mention others books with the volumes in the NICOT, ICC, AYBC, HCOT and so on?

Maybe I am naive in my understanding of scholars and academics since I am neither. But from a pragmatic perspective we did not know the quality of scholarship of the tomes that became "the standards" until they were penned. The wisdom and understanding was already present and just needed to be committed to the page and finessed. It is always sorrowful to lose a learned Christian when you know their accumulated knowledge was not passed on to subsequent generations.

The authors slated for the EEC have already displayed critical thinking skills. The application of those skills to a new work should not be questioned so long as they have knowledge of the topic.

Alain Maashe:

By the grace of God, I have numerous commentaries on each book of the Bible. However, the commentaries most useful for academic research are seldom also useful for preparing a message or devotional time. I also found that I turn to various specialized commentaries depending on what I seek to accomplish and that I avoid the “jack of all trades” most of the time.

I am not confident that a single commentary will replace

As ambitious as the EEC project is, I do not think it is intended to replace other quality works, but to  enhance your library with more depth & quality.

One of the reasons Logos is so useful is the reality of having "Hebrew, Aramaic, Greek and cognate languages, textual criticism, the finer points of archeology, comparative literature and other extra biblical material" all together in one library, tagged, indexed and instantly searchable.

I have:
NICOT/NICNT http://www.logos.com/products/details/5184
WBC http://www.logos.com/products/details/3671
AYB http://www.logos.com/products/details/4469
Hermeneia http://www.logos.com/products/details/5072
and every commentary that comes with Portfolio edition. http://www.logos.com/contents/portfolio#001

I hope to someday get:
International Critical Commentary Series CD-ROM - T&T Clark Int'l (53 Vols.)http://www.logos.com/products/details/1906
Interpretation: A Bible Commentary for Teaching and Preaching (43 Vols.)  http://www.logos.com/products/prepub/details/6751
Anchor Yale Bible Reference Library (29 Vols.)http://www.logos.com/products/prepub/details/5732
Evangelical Exegetical Commentary (44 Vols.) http://www.logos.com/products/prepub/details/7565

You have to concede there are unique examples of fine scholarship in each of these sets. Why deny the inclusion because of weak spots? We will certainly benefit from having EEC regardless of it's shortcomings. (And it will have some.)

I need not be overwhelmed with variegated search results. I can use several tools to fine tune my hits.

Proverbs 11:14 "Where no counsel is, the people fall: but in the multitude of counselors there is safety."

Lastly, Do I need all these commentaries?    I doubt it. I certainly won't exhaust my library before I leave this body. However, when I go to the beach I am grateful God over-did creation. I don't need the beauty, expanse  and wonder of the ocean just to go swimming. Likewise, EEC will be a worthwhile addition to whatever resources we already enjoy.

OFF-TOPIC addendum:  How about Morris Proctor get together with Pastor Lynden Williams and host a Camp Logos in Nassau, Bahamas so we can all swim in the excessively over-done beauty............

Logos 7 Collectors Edition

Posts 286
Mathew Voth | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Sep 6 2010 9:06 AM

I am personally very excited about this commentary series, especially since I am a Logos user. However as I was thinking about it I began to consider users of other software (i.e. Accordance), and thought how painful it would be to know that you could never access this particular series. While there have been many valid concerns voiced here, I am pretty sure the only thing you would hear if the tables were turned would be verging on envy! So if another company, such as the aforementioned, ever does likewise and produces a series exclusive to their platform, what will we do?

It is my hope that should that day come, that the respecitve companies can come to an agreement whereby users can purchase these sets across platforms.

Thoughts?

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Matthew C Jones | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Sep 6 2010 9:24 AM

Mathew Voth:
how painful it would be to know that you could never access this particular series. While there have been many valid concerns voiced here, I am pretty sure the only thing you would hear if the tables were turned would be verging on envy! So if another company, such as the aforementioned, ever does likewise and produces a series exclusive to their platform, what will we do?

I don't encourage the bragging contest. It get's ugly real quick.

We (Logos users) have already experienced that a few times.  I happen to really like The Complete Biblical Library that is apparently under exclusive contract with "the other guys" for a few years.

My response could be to: 1) do without it, 2) run dual multiple programs to access across the divide 3) wait & hope Logos picks it up when the exclusivity rights have expired.

Logos response could be 1) develop their own similar reference works 2) try to negotiate a industry "sharing" by eliminating exclusivity 3) make Logos 5.0 capable of running WordSearch, PDF, eSword, BibleSoft resources (not possible?)

In a perfect world all the software would work on all the machines, and be FREE Big Smile !

 

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Posts 620
Jonathan | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Sep 6 2010 9:34 AM

I am excited about this commentary set. I only wish that Logos would move away from the philosophy of only selling an entire set. It would be nice if we could order commentaries on an individual basis.

I love a number of the NICOT/NICNT commentaries, but will not buy them on Logos. Why do we have to buy a set of commentaries (ranging from $700-2000) to get the four-five commentaries that we are interested in? I would ask Logos to take a serious look at changing this part of their marketing philosophy. I think you would sell a lot more commentaries and probably pick up a number of new users.

I understand that Logos is at the hands of the publisher in some instances, but with EEC Logos is the publisher! I wonder if Logos is actually the  one who does not want to sell commentaries on an individual basis.

Syntax Searching Group | Michigan Logos Users | L5 FAQ | OSX 10.10 | 2.4 GHz i5 | 8 GB Ram

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Matthew C Jones | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Sep 6 2010 9:58 AM

Jonathan:
I understand that Logos is at the hands of the publisher in some instances, but with EEC Logos is the publisher! I wonder if Logos is actually the  one who does not want to sell commentaries on an individual basis.

Jonathan:
I am excited about this commentary set. I only wish that Logos would move away from the philosophy of only selling an entire set. It would be nice if we could order commentaries on an individual basis.

You are right about Logos & the EEC project. It might be a "All for one & One for all" 3 musketeer type of philosophy.

I do believe some of the publishers don't want their sets sold by individual volumes. I predict that will change. But be prepared to pay $40~50 per volume when they offer them.

If everybody bought every Logos title the prices could be set ridiculously low. The real world economy does not work out that way. When a store goes out of business and marks down everything, the "good stuff" sells quickly. Some stuff won't sell for 99% off. I'd buy Crum's Coptic Dictionary http://www.logos.com/products/prepub/details/5970 for 99% off.   Stick out tongue    I DID get the Russian Bible for 100% off Русский Синодальный Перевод  http://www.logos.com/ebooks/details/rst . I wonder who underwrote that development. It must have cost Logos something to make it available.

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Posts 99
JJ Miller | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Sep 6 2010 10:13 AM

Dan Pritchett:

Yes, it really is a bold plan.

It is so bold, that no one in the traditional print publishing industry thought it could be done. I know what some of you are thinking... "The people reading this thread right now think it can't be done too!"  

Stick out tongue

For all intents and purposes, a project of this scope was thought to be a thing of the past, but we were not content to sit by and watch it die. Major new commentary series should be written. Scholars shouldn't have their full knowledge of a subject limited to 500 words. Big projects should not be abandoned because they are too hard to do, or aren't guaranteed to make tons of money.

We are risk-takers.

Thank you, Dan, for the well written and detailed overview.  I agree, it is a bold plan and it is EXCITING!  I am aboard. 

I read some people who have a great deal of hesitancy.  You know, I am married to a lovely woman who would NEVER purchase ANY prepub, and certainly not something with a timeline that we are looking at.  Her temperment thinks such things are foolish.  I don't think that anyone who likes all their "i's" dotted and "t's" crossed is going to be completely comfortable with a project of this type... not until things get further along.  And that is AOK.  

I know that Logos is going to take care of its customer base.. I am absolutely assured of it based on my past experience with this company. And while I never want to be foolish with what little money we have, I am certain that the EEC set will be as described and getting it for about $15 a volume is a steal.  

However, I couldn't help but consider something.  This set may very well go on the Portfolio Edition of Logos.  If that is being consdered, perhaps something can be done to BRING MONEY INTO THE PROJECT NOW, and gather more Portfolio users at the same time: PUT EEC Prepub on the Portfolio Upgrade. Sweeten the deal with the KNOWN so that people's comfort level is increased. Adjust pricing as needed, but the benefit to Logos is clear: You will have money in the coffers NOW for further development on this project (as people ordering an upgrade to the Portfolio edition would be paying for that now (knowing they also qualify for the EEC when available). Win. Win. 

EEC on Portfolio makes great sense too.  That set needs one OUTSTANDING Commentary Set to make it truly irresistible.  And those who want a Payment Plan would then have one.. that is, if they upgrade to Portfolio and chose the payment plan option.  Win. Win. 

Since Logos specializes in making the impossible a reality, it sounds like a great way to accomplish it! 

Thanks for all your incredible work on this project thus far!  We are very excited to say the least.  And thanks so much for announcing this now, instead of much later! 

God Richly Blesses, 

JJ

 

Posts 2507
Ronald Quick | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Sep 6 2010 10:23 AM

I went ahead and placed my order to lock in the lowest price.  I'm looking forward to it, I just hope my wallet (and wife) give the go ahead for the purchase when it comes available.

Posts 128
Levi D. | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Sep 6 2010 10:36 AM

Initially, I was skeptical about this pre-pub deal, but after reading this thread over the past few days, I grew warmer to the idea.

I talked to my wife, and to my surprise, she had little resistance to the idea -- in fact, she was kind of excited that this would be the first major commentary series to be digital before it goes into print. 

So this morning, I locked into the pre-pub price. Now I need to start saving for April!

I was working on Psalm 23 this morning for a funeral, and found that my selection of commentaries was somewhat limited for Psalms. So I am even more excited that the first volume of the EEC will be Psalms.

I spent most of my time in thinking of divine things, year after year; often walking alone in the woods and solitary places for meditation, soliloquy and prayer - Jonathan Edwards

Posts 19262
Rosie Perera | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Sep 6 2010 1:52 PM

Matthew C Jones:
OFF-TOPIC addendum:  How about Morris Proctor get together with Pastor Lynden Williams and host a Camp Logos in Nassau, Bahamas so we can all swim in the excessively over-done beauty............

Now there's an idea! Smile Hallelujah for the "festal muchness" of our Creator, as my arts-pastor/author friend David Taylor puts it.

Matthew C Jones:
My response could be to: 1) do without it, 2) run dual multiple programs to access across the divide 3) wait & hope Logos picks it up when the exclusivity rights have expired.

A fourth option would be get the print version if/when available; not ideal but better than doing without completely.

JJ Miller:
  

However, I couldn't help but consider something.  This set may very well go on the Portfolio Edition of Logos.  If that is being consdered, perhaps something can be done to BRING MONEY INTO THE PROJECT NOW, and gather more Portfolio users at the same time: PUT EEC Prepub on the Portfolio Upgrade. Sweeten the deal with the KNOWN so that people's comfort level is increased. Adjust pricing as needed, but the benefit to Logos is clear: You will have money in the coffers NOW for further development on this project (as people ordering an upgrade to the Portfolio edition would be paying for that now (knowing they also qualify for the EEC when available). Win. Win. 

EEC on Portfolio makes great sense too.  That set needs one OUTSTANDING Commentary Set to make it truly irresistible.  And those who want a Payment Plan would then have one.. that is, if they upgrade to Portfolio and chose the payment plan option.  Win. Win. 

Since Logos specializes in making the impossible a reality, it sounds like a great way to accomplish it! 

That is a fantastic idea, JJ! You should seriously pitch it directly to Logos marketing. Email Dan Pritchett, dan (at) logos (dot) com.

Posts 5801
DIsciple II | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Sep 6 2010 2:39 PM

Matthew C Jones:
In a perfect world all the software would work on all the machines, and be FREE Big Smile !

This is Logos approach too... .they just haven't gotten around to a Linux port yet.... and the software is free... we just have to pay for the content Crying

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Matthew C Jones | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Sep 6 2010 3:13 PM

Rosie Perera:
Now there's an idea! Smile Hallelujah for the "festal muchness" of our Creator, as my arts-pastor/author friend David Taylor puts it.

I really like Pastor Taylor's take on this. (I'd add, my Creator is not really a show-off, He just likes to express Himself.)

Rosie Perera:
A fourth option would be get the print version if/when available; not ideal but better than doing without completely.

Alas, I did own the hardback NT set TWICE, and sold it TWICE.  I never could find the OT set in hardback. Logos is quickly filling the gaps with new language materials that ease the pain of envy. Embarrassed

Rosie Perera:
That is a fantastic idea, JJ! You should seriously pitch it directly to Logos marketing. Email Dan Pritchett,

Especially if the current Portfolio holders get a free EEC Big Smile !

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DIsciple II | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Sep 6 2010 3:25 PM

Matthew C Jones:
Especially if the current Portfolio holders get a free EEC Big Smile !

I'm hanging out for the Logos Lectern, not so much for the Lectern itself , but the iPad come with it.... you are including the iPad aren't you Logos Stick out tongue If not Portfolio then, EEC should be a no brainier in the Lectern collection, along with Hermeneia, ICC, and Anchor Yale Bible and Reference Series. Lectern Gold comes with a lifetime subscription to all included commentary sets so that you get any additional volumes added to , or revised volumes released for free as they are released.

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Matthew C Jones | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Sep 6 2010 3:36 PM

Andrew McKenzie:

Matthew C Jones:
Especially if the current Portfolio holders get a free EEC Big Smile !

I'm hanging out for the Logos Lectern, not so much for the Lectern itself , but the iPad come with it.... you are including the iPad aren't you Logos Stick out tongue If not Portfolio then, EEC should be a no brainier in the Lectern collection, along with Hermeneia, ICC, and Anchor Yale Bible and Reference Series. Lectern Gold comes with a lifetime subscription to all included commentary sets so that you get any additional volumes added to , or revised volumes released for free as they are released.

My response fits better under the thread "Logos pricing" but here goes anyway;

Have you considered the fact you only have one first-born child to trade for a "Lectern Gold" license and the necessary funding would cost almost TWO first-borns to satisfy all the publishers' licensing fees?

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Rosie Perera | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Sep 6 2010 3:43 PM

Matthew C Jones:
Have you considered the fact you only have one first-born child to trade for a "Lectern Gold" license and the necessary funding would cost almost TWO first-borns to satisfy all the publishers' licensing fees?

Yeah, but part of the licensing fee comes from the free marketing Logos gets every time he preaches from that lectern. It will of course have a Logos logo on the front of it. And he'll be required to toss out little references like "I looked this up in Logos..." every so often. Smile

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DIsciple II | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Sep 6 2010 3:49 PM

Matthew C Jones:

Andrew McKenzie:

Matthew C Jones:
Especially if the current Portfolio holders get a free EEC Big Smile !

I'm hanging out for the Logos Lectern, not so much for the Lectern itself , but the iPad come with it.... you are including the iPad aren't you Logos Stick out tongue If not Portfolio then, EEC should be a no brainier in the Lectern collection, along with Hermeneia, ICC, and Anchor Yale Bible and Reference Series. Lectern Gold comes with a lifetime subscription to all included commentary sets so that you get any additional volumes added to , or revised volumes released for free as they are released.

My response fits better under the thread "Logos pricing" but here goes anyway;

Have you considered the fact you only have one first-born child to trade for a "Lectern Gold" license and the necessary funding would cost almost TWO first-borns to satisfy all the publishers' licensing fees?

I haven't even got the first 'first-born' yet... . now if I did have TWO first-borns (twins maybe,) I still wouldn't trade them for Logos unobtanium ... but to get this thread back on track ( Thomas hijacking techniques seem to be rubbing off)   I'm happy to settle for the current EEC offer.

 

Posts 8660
TCBlack | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Sep 6 2010 4:08 PM

 

Jonathan:
I love a number of the NICOT/NICNT commentaries, but will not buy them on Logos. Why do we have to buy a set of commentaries (ranging from $700-2000) to get the four-five commentaries that we are interested in? I would ask Logos to take a serious look at changing this part of their marketing philosophy. I think you would sell a lot more commentaries and probably pick up a number of new users.
Many times, it's not in Logos' hands.  Oftimes one of the compromises that have to be made in order to get the rights to publish is an all or nothing deal.  Logos would rather go with the all than the nothing.  Sometimes it works out that the sets are later broken up.  Although we don't always see it.  I for one am hungry for Milgrom's triple set on Leviticus to be available separate from the rest of the Anchor yale Bible.
Andrew McKenzie:
( Thomas hijacking techniques seem to be rubbing off)

Man!  I can't even blame Philip for this one.

Hmm Sarcasm is my love language. Obviously I love you. 

Posts 19262
Rosie Perera | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Sep 6 2010 4:48 PM

Thomas Black:
 
Jonathan:
I love a number of the NICOT/NICNT commentaries, but will not buy them on Logos. Why do we have to buy a set of commentaries (ranging from $700-2000) to get the four-five commentaries that we are interested in? I would ask Logos to take a serious look at changing this part of their marketing philosophy. I think you would sell a lot more commentaries and probably pick up a number of new users.
Many times, it's not in Logos' hands.  Oftimes one of the compromises that have to be made in order to get the rights to publish is an all or nothing deal. 

I believe Logos explained somewhere that the reason publishers put these restrictions on their bundles is to be able to move the less popular volumes in the series. If they allowed the set to be split up, people would buy only the 4-5 most popular ones and the least popular would languish in warehouses somewhere. The authors of these latter, who put forth as much time and effort as the authors of the best-selling volumes would not be compensated as much in royalties. This made a bit more sense in the print era, but perhaps publishers need to rethink things now in the digital era. There's still a lot of jostling going on in digital publishing as this stuff gets worked out, and probably still will be for several years before the dust settles.

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