Shame on LOGOS

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Posts 3810
spitzerpl | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Oct 18 2010 12:59 PM | Locked

Fred J. Morgan:

As for Fair priceing compared to Hardbound.   It is not that hard to make E-Publications. Especially if you designed the format. THESE BOOKS are not in copywrite. If you search LOGOS you will find quite a few books in which they actually show you OLD Book. This is because these aer the Books which WERE OCRed to make the E-Book.

I look forward to trying out your products in a couple months at a greatly reduced price. Do you have a mailing list? Big Smile

I believe you are being unfair to Logos here, and as a brother feel somewhat obligated to point it out. You are accusing Logos of selling a product at a much greater price than CBD is, which is just plain not true. CBD's price is $720. Logos sells it for $700. One could just as easily accuse you of having an insincere heart, trying to convict Logos to sell something at a price that gives you the financial advantage by using misleading information.

Logos is upfront that if you want their product you will need to pay $700. There is nothing underhanded about that. What would be underhanded is if they said you can have Karl Barth for $100 and once you bought it said "oh, and by the way, you'll need to spend $200 on our software to be able to read it."

If you don't want to pay $700 then don't buy the product, at least according to my belief your ministry can still succeed without his work and not owning his work will have no bearing on your salvation.

In my experience I have never been cheated by Logos. What they told me I would need to pay for a product I wanted is exactly what it cost me. That is what I call a fair business transaction. If I love doing business with Logos it is not because I have been duped into doing so but because they have always been fair and I find their product well worth the price.

Posts 3917
Forum MVP
Friedrich | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Oct 18 2010 1:00 PM | Locked

for the visual ones:

here are two sets offered by Christianbook.  The cheapest set is the oldest, one that Logos does not offer.  Not only is the english translation 70ish years old, but you have to know Greek and Latin.


Here is the new translation, just recently published.

Notice the price on this same set in Logos (one with tagging, linking, and it fits in your backback, along with thousands of other books:


it is cheaper.  And, at times, a personal contact with sales can even get you a better deal.

I love CBD, I really do.  Before I went digital, i bought from them ALL the time.  They are not always cheaper than Logos, and not cheaper the Amazon--although sometimes they are.  They do what they have to do.  So does Logos.  But now we have a thread that says "SHAME on Logos", bringing disrepute to them over an factually inaccurate post. 

How encouraging it might be to start another thread with the title "BRAVO Logos!" 

EDIT: added content.

I like Apples.  Especially Honeycrisp.

Posts 19693
Rosie Perera | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Oct 18 2010 1:12 PM | Locked

Fred J. Morgan:

As for Fair priceing compared to Hardbound.   It is not that hard to make E-Publications. Especially if you designed the format. THESE BOOKS are not in copywrite. If you search LOGOS you will find quite a few books in which they actually show you OLD Book. This is because these aer the Books which WERE OCRed to make the E-Book.

I am sorry if you disagree, but it does not cme anywhere near the cost of hardbound book publication. Not to mention Storage price, Distibution Prices and Advertising to a wide market. Logos has none of these problems. They have a captive audiance, so to speak.

It's not as easy as you think making E-Publications. Have you seen their feature article on what it takes to make one? It's pretty involved, especially for out-of-print works (for current in-print works, they can usually get the digital text files directly from the publisher which saves them a ton of work):

Bob has explained elsewhere why the cost of E-Publications is comparable to the cost of printed books. First, the cost of continuous developing of the software to access the books has to be factored into it, since they charge only for the resources, not the engine. We get free upgrades of the software forever once we buy a Logos resource. There's nothing in the printed book world that can compare to that. Second, there is the cost of support. You buy a print-based book and you know how to use it right off the shelf. Unless you're this poor fellow. Smile Not so with digital media. Logos provides free customer service and that is a major expense for them in running the business, so they have to charge enough for the resources to cover that.

I think it would be good for Logos to offer a virtual "field trip" to the digital book publishing division in the forum of a video showing us what all goes into making their electronic resources. It might help us all to understand why things are priced the way they are.

I really wish you'd chosen a different title for this thread as I hate seeing it keep popping up in the recent threads again, but I still felt I had to settle a misperception. Unfortunately it has been rehashed dozens of times before in these forums, and I'm sure this won't put the issue to rest forever.

Posts 431
Wilson Hines | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Oct 18 2010 1:23 PM | Locked

Why not ask a moderator to lock the thread, because after all, the question is settled very thoroughly. 

Wilson Hines

Posts 9
Chris Ritter | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Oct 18 2010 1:35 PM | Locked

Fred J. Morgan:

anytime anyone sells at DISCOUNT INTENTIONALLY to Christian who evalgalize, spread God's word, offer apologetics they are a MINISTRY.   I Consider SCROLL Publishing as a ministry also along with a few other publishers, some of which sell at near cost.......................................................

I don't chime in on the forums very often, but here goes.  The argument could easily be made that all Christians are in "the ministry." Everything we do reflects what we believe about the God we serve and is evident to those around us.  It doesn't matter if we sell books, become a doctor, work at a gas station, or pastor a church.  In that sense, Logos is most definitely a ministry to both pastors and laymen.  However, Logos is a business and has never hidden that. It is a business that needs to make a profit in order to sustain itself. The business is bigger than throwing out some eBooks at people and walking away. They continually make the software better, answer our phone calls, develop new products, provide these forums...

It seems as though the idea of making a profit is where you are struggling with this issue, but making a profit is not the same as being greedy.  Logos has historically done an excellent job at reinvesting profit back into the business in order to grow and become even more beneficial to the users of the software.  Reinvested profit is actually how we got to Logos 4 since they don't charge for the engine.   I praise God that we have Christians in this business and that I am able to have a whole library in my pocket wherever I go.

Posts 1723
Bob Pritchett | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Oct 18 2010 7:05 PM | Locked

I'm sorry I don't have time for a longer reply, but just a quick note: public domain vs. copyright is the smallest part of the cost equation in preparing a book. The royalty to the author is generally much lower than the actual cost of preparing even an electronic edition. In fact, public domain books often cost MORE to make as e-books, because they have to by typed. Modern, copyrighted books are often available from the author or publisher in electronic format, and require only processing and tagging.

We rarely OCR; the OCR'ed books in Logos were generally done by third-parties, and you can tell because of the higher error rate. OCR is rarely better than 97% accurate, which leaves many errors per page. (Just count the characters on a page -- maybe 80 chars by 25+ lines = 2000 characters, 3% errors = 60 per page in raw processing.) We generally have things double-keyed, at 99.95% accuracy. (Triple-keying, for 99.995% for Bibles, which costs even more.)

We've had individual titles (multi-volume) with keyboarding costs in excess of $100,000.

-- Bob

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