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Ted Hans | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Aug 31 2009 5:31 AM

Robert Pavich:

George,

for the record; I'm a little different, I'd still check out Ray's stuff, but would steer clear of his dispensationalist views.

You might like this:

http://www.againstdispensationalism.com/95theses.shtml

bob

Hi Robert, although i am not George, thanks for the link. It makes for an interesting reading.

Ted

 

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Daniel R. Smith | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Aug 31 2009 6:00 AM

Okay, I have a question. First, I have been "raised" in the church as a dispensationalist. I have begun to change that view as my view of a pre-tribulational rapture has been changed. I believe in a premallianal post tribulation rapture.  I am now struggling to discover which "camp" I most fit: progressive dispenstional, covenantal, or what?

Or there any other "camps" out there? I would just as soon be in the Biblical camp. Smile 

May the Lord bless you and keep you.

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Ted Hans | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Aug 31 2009 6:42 AM

Daniel R. Smith:
I would just as soon be in the Biblical camp.

The Biblical camp is the Historic Premillennial, post tribulation rapture with a Covenant theology Hermeneutic.Big Smile

Ted

 

 

 


 

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George Somsel | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Aug 31 2009 6:59 AM

Daniel R. Smith:

Okay, I have a question. First, I have been "raised" in the church as a dispensationalist. I have begun to change that view as my view of a pre-tribulational rapture has been changed. I believe in a premallianal post tribulation rapture.  I am now struggling to discover which "camp" I most fit: progressive dispenstional, covenantal, or what?

Or there any other "camps" out there? I would just as soon be in the Biblical camp. Smile 

Of course there are other views.  Get 4 theologians together and you will have 5-6 different views.  There is also the Post-millenial position which was at one time fairly popular but which has fallen into disfavor (I think 2 world wars had something to do with that).  Then there is the correct view which is the Amillenial position which I hold.  Wink (Sorry, couldn't resist).  You won't find any mention of a "rapture" in the Apocalypse which is where you would expect to find it.  Some have been rather creative in finding ways to insert it into the book, but it is about like putting a VW Beetle front on a Rolls Royce -- it just doesn't fit.  While it does speak of a thousand year period in Revelation, I don't think you can take that literally since it seems to be a standard apocalyptic trope for the blessedness of the kingdom (which is NOW).  Then in addition if you read the very last chapter, you will note that it speaks of the leaves of the Tree of Life as being for the healing of the nations.  If this is after the Millenium, why is there yet need for the nations to be healed?  In cap 22 why does it speak of kings bringing "thier glory" into the city and of nothing unclean or any who practice abominations entering into it?  Indeed, it says that OUTSIDE are the dogs, sorcerers, fornicators, murderers and idolators.  They New Jerusalem, the Millenium and the Church are one.

george
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Ted Hans | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Aug 31 2009 7:47 AM

George Somsel:
Then there is the correct view which is the Amillenial position which I hold.  Wink (Sorry, couldn't resist).

Hello George,

                        I am not surprise you hold to the Amil view but i have never been happy with their handling of Rev 20:1-8. Satan is now bound for a 1000 years Hmmm, in the bottomless pit, and shut up, and a seal is set upon him, that he should not deceive the nations no more. Seems to me that many nations are still deceived & being deceived by him today. G.k. Beale monumental commentary fails to convince on this. I look forward to your exegetical defense/views on Rev 20 when your commentary is published.

Take care & Regards,

Sir T.

P.S. If the Amil view is the correct position, then the Historic Premillennial view is the correct biblical view to hold.Wink

 


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J.R. Miller | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Aug 31 2009 7:55 AM

George Somsel:
Some have been rather creative in finding ways to insert it into the book, but it is about like putting a VW Beetle front on a Rolls Royce -- it just doesn't fit. 

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Ted Hans | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Aug 31 2009 8:03 AM

Joe Miller:

George Somsel:
Some have been rather creative in finding ways to insert it into the book, but it is about like putting a VW Beetle front on a Rolls Royce -- it just doesn't fit. 

Great Joe, absolutely great - that made me laugh.

Ted.

 

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George Somsel | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Aug 31 2009 8:06 AM

Ted Hans:

George Somsel:
Then there is the correct view which is the Amillenial position which I hold.  Wink (Sorry, couldn't resist).

Hello George,

                        I am not surprise you hold to the Amil view but i have never been happy with their handling of Rev 20:1-8. Satan is now bound for a 1000 years Hmmm, in the bottomless pit, and shut up, and a seal is set upon him, that he should not deceive the nations no more. Seems to me that many nations are still deceived & being deceived by him today. G.k. Beale monumental commentary fails to convince on this. I look forward to your exegetical defense/views on Rev 20 when your commentary is published.

Take care & Regards,

Sir T.

P.S. If the Amil view is the correct position, then the Historic Premillennial view is the correct biblical view to hold.Wink

 

It is the nations which are deceived, not the church.  Those who deceive are outside. 

How can you say that if the Amil vie is correct then the historic Premil view is the biblical view?  That doesn't fit.

george
gfsomsel

יְמֵי־שְׁנוֹתֵינוּ בָהֶם שִׁבְעִים שָׁנָה וְאִם בִּגְבוּרֹת שְׁמוֹנִים שָׁנָה וְרָהְבָּם עָמָל וָאָוֶן

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Ted Hans | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Aug 31 2009 8:19 AM

George Somsel:
How can you say that if the Amil vie is correct then the historic Premil view is the biblical view?  That doesn't fit.

I was trying to be polite. if the Amil view is the correct position according to George then the historic Premil view is the biblical view. How about that, you forced my handSmile

Agree, it is the nations that are deceived and not the true church but Rev 20 refers to the "nations" not being deceived & not the church(no mention of the church there). As for the "Church" i see many deception, defection from sound biblical teaching. Look at the Church of England - the Bishops are not sure about so much!

Sir T.

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George Somsel | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Aug 31 2009 9:08 AM

Ted Hans:

George Somsel:
How can you say that if the Amil vie is correct then the historic Premil view is the biblical view?  That doesn't fit.

I was trying to be polite. if the Amil view is the correct position according to George then the historic Premil view is the biblical view. How about that, you forced my handSmile

Agree, it is the nations that are deceived and not the true church but Rev 20 refers to the "nations" not being deceived & not the church(no mention of the church there). As for the "Church" i see many deception, defection from sound biblical teaching. Look at the Church of England - the Bishops are not sure about so much!

Sir T.

I don't think you can establish that the Premil view is the biblical view.  I think that palm goes to the Amil position. 

Don't get perkonal with a chicken !  I'm in the Anglican Communion.  You could as well have said that the Baptists aren't sure about so much.  It comes down to what is the Church and what is not.  This raises the classic Reformed position that the marks of the True Church are the proper preaching of the word and the administration of the sacraments.  Some would add to this discipline.

george
gfsomsel

יְמֵי־שְׁנוֹתֵינוּ בָהֶם שִׁבְעִים שָׁנָה וְאִם בִּגְבוּרֹת שְׁמוֹנִים שָׁנָה וְרָהְבָּם עָמָל וָאָוֶן

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Ted Hans | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Aug 31 2009 9:39 AM

George Somsel:
This raises the classic Reformed position that the marks of the True Church are the proper preaching of the word and the administration of the sacraments.  Some would add to this discipline.

To this i would say, Amen.

George Somsel:
You could as well have said that the Baptists aren't sure about so much.

Yes,yes,yes

George Somsel:
I don't think you can establish that the Premil view is the biblical view.  I think that palm goes to the Amil position. 

Of course i am distancing myself from the Dispensationalism Premil position. Historic Premil & Amil are very close in what they affirm but if (which is a big if) the Historic Premil position is wrong, which i don't think it is. Then i will have to go for the traditional Reform view - Amil. My first choice is H/Premil and then Amil.

Good to hear from you again, you have been quiet of late, perhaps busy.

Every Blessing,

Sir T.

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Daniel R. Smith | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Aug 31 2009 9:55 AM

<quote>

The Biblical camp is the Historic Premillennial, post tribulation rapture with a Covenant theology Hermeneutic.Big Smile

Ted </quote>

 

Thanks Ted. Now I just need to "bone up" on Covenant Theology.  Any suggestions for authors?

 

And I appreciate your imput also, George. I am really enjoying the exchange between you two, and wouldn't mind joining. However, I sure that this is may really go to far OT.

May the Lord bless you and keep you.

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Steve Robinson | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Aug 31 2009 10:56 AM

www.raystedman.org has Ray Stedman's entire library online for free, including his books, expository studies and individual messages (the latter in both pdf and audio). I've suggested / requested his works in Libronix format from Logos a couple of times over the last couple of years, but never heard anything. Glad to see others are interested as well.

Steve R.

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George Somsel | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Aug 31 2009 10:59 AM

Daniel R. Smith:
Thanks Ted. Now I just need to "bone up" on Covenant Theology.  Any suggestions for authors?

You might consider the new Community Pricing offering by Hugh Martin The Atonement:  Its Relationship to the Covenant, the Priesthood,, the Intercession of our Lord.  Of course, there are also some of the classic systematics texts such as Hodge and Shedd (both in Logos).

george
gfsomsel

יְמֵי־שְׁנוֹתֵינוּ בָהֶם שִׁבְעִים שָׁנָה וְאִם בִּגְבוּרֹת שְׁמוֹנִים שָׁנָה וְרָהְבָּם עָמָל וָאָוֶן

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Ted Hans | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Aug 31 2009 11:16 AM

Daniel R. Smith:

Thanks Ted. Now I just need to "bone up" on Covenant Theology.  Any suggestions for authors?

Hi Daniel,

                    Try, O. Palmer Robertson books,  Wayne Grudem Systematics Theology(Available in Logos) & MacArthur's Millennial Manifesto( A friendly Response) by Samuel E. Waldron. Waldron responds to my favourite Preacher from an Amil position while mentioning the Historic Premill position.

I am sure you are aware of the various commentaries on the book of Revelation from a Historic Premill position like George Lad, Grant R. Osborne(Available in Logos),Robert H. Mounce (Available in Logos),Craig S. Keener, John p. Newport, Ben Witherington III etc. Hope this helps.

Ted

Blessed Hope ~ George Ladd

The Israel of God: Yesterday, Today, and Tomorrow by O. Palmer Robertson

Understanding the Land of the Bible: A Biblical-Theological Guide by O. Palmer Robertson

The Christ of the Covenants by O. Palmer Robertson

Understanding Dispensationalists Vern S. Poythress

The Shadow of Christ in the Law of Moses by Vern S. Poythress

Introducing Covenant Theology Michael Horton

Dispensationalism: Rightly Dividing the People of God?  by Keith A. Mathison

Continuity and Discontinuity: Perspectives on the Relationship Between the Old and New Testaments by John S. Feinberg (Available in Logos)

House Divided: The Break Up of Dispensational Theology  by Greg L. Bahnsen

Wrongly Dividing the Word of Truth: A Critique of Dispensationalism (Second Edition)  by John H. Gerstner

R. C. Sproul books (Available in Logos) - What is Reformed Theology?: Understanding the Basics

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Daniel R. Smith | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Aug 31 2009 11:39 AM

Thank you very much, Ted and George, for your time with the book lists!

 

Also, to stay on topic, I have long enjoyed Ray Stedman. In particular, his sermons on the book of Acts. So, I too would love to see his works in Logos. It is by God's grace that I am learning to listen to various teachers with whom I don't agree with on one topic or another, and yet still be blessed  by their expositions.

May the Lord bless you and keep you.

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Ted Hans | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Aug 31 2009 11:53 AM

Daniel R. Smith:
Also, to stay on topic, I have long enjoyed Ray Stedman. In particular, his sermons on the book of Acts. So, I too would love to see his works in Logos. It is by God's grace that I am learning to listen to various teachers with whom I don't agree with on one topic or another, and yet still be blessed  by their expositions.

You are welcome - Well said on teachers one does not agree with.

Stay blessed,

Ted.

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Matthew C Jones | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Aug 31 2009 5:09 PM

Ted Hans:
Of course i am distancing myself from the Dispensationalism Premil position. Historic Premil & Amil are very close in what they affirm but if (which is a big if) the Historic Premil position is wrong, which i don't think it is. Then i will have to go for the traditional Reform view - Amil. My first choice is H/Premil and then Amil.

Big Smile  I love it, Sir T!  Theology cafeteria style. 

It seems I get criticized frequently for my continuing quest for deeper understanding. I make navigational corrections along the way as I learn my understanding has been flawed somewhere. I remember George's admonition to "keep your friends close and your enemies closer." George has also recommended reading those with whom you do NOT agree. So if Ray Stedman is off base it would e a good reminder as to why. Still there is a lot of practical applications we can glean from him. I think he was a gifted pastor whatever your eschatology.

Logos 7 Collectors Edition

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Chris Ease | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Aug 31 2009 6:08 PM

What's wrong with Shedd's "Dogmatic Theology"?  Do we need anything else?Wink

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George Somsel | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Aug 31 2009 8:33 PM

Chris:

What's wrong with Shedd's "Dogmatic Theology"?  Do we need anything else?Wink

Did someone say there was something wrong with it?  I did list it as one that might be consulted regarding the covenant.  It is a bit dated.  It is not as though God changes, but we certainly do and need something which speaks more to our current manner of thought.  I would also recommend Barth, Tillich and Berkouwer.  Also, Berhoff is on prepub.  Every theology is written from one person's viewpoint.  It is good to look at things from other viewpoints as well.  Some of them will most certainly be wrong, but that doesn't mean that you won't gain some understanding simply by having read them.

george
gfsomsel

יְמֵי־שְׁנוֹתֵינוּ בָהֶם שִׁבְעִים שָׁנָה וְאִם בִּגְבוּרֹת שְׁמוֹנִים שָׁנָה וְרָהְבָּם עָמָל וָאָוֶן

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