Editing Scripture

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Posts 1875
Alan Macgregor | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Nov 9 2010 1:41 PM

Sam McCloud:
maybe John intended the ideas presented  by both translations to be assumed when he wrote that passage initially.

I think you have the rights of it here, Sam. It's not a matter of either or but both and. I think that bivalence and nuance is something that John uses, not because he is being obtuse but because he is being perspicuous. He wants us to understand clearly what he is saying.

Another example of John's bivalent use of language is to be found in John 1:5 καὶ τὸ φῶς ἐν τῇ σκοτίᾳ φαίνει, καὶ ἡ σκοτία αὐτὸ οὐ κατέλαβεν. What does κατέλαβεν mean here? Is it about understanding or overcoming? The English versions come down on either side and the context would allow either, but I think that the context allows both. So how about rendering it this way? - And the light shines in the darkness and the darkness has not mastered it. Using this word you get the nuances of both meanings in the one English word. (Mind you, it's not often that a bivalent English word is available for a bivalent Greek word.)

BTW thanks for raising this topic, David. Having the resources and  tools of Logos means that more people are encouraged to delve into scripture themselves, rather than just accepting what a particular English version says. It allows people to do what the Reformers wanted - to handle the Word of God in its original languages for themselves. (It's why the first Scottish grammar schools from 1560 until the early 17th century taught not only Latin and Greek but Hebrew too. John Knox and others wanted people to be able to read the scriptures in the original tongues.)

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Posts 47
Sam McCloud | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Nov 9 2010 8:24 PM

Alan Macgregor:
Another example of John's bivalent use of language is to be found in John 1:5 καὶ τὸ φῶς ἐν τῇ σκοτίᾳ φαίνει, καὶ ἡ σκοτία αὐτὸ οὐ κατέλαβεν. What does κατέλαβεν mean here? Is it about understanding or overcoming? The English versions come down on either side and the context would allow either, but I think that the context allows both.

I listened to a great sermon preached by Don Carson on this very fact and he agrees with you 100% and so do I. I had noticed this about the word κατέλαβεν before I heard him preach on it and had thought that any English translation should include both possibilities for this word, since after all we English speakers don't have the liberty of figuring out the intention of the original language unless we can read Greek or have Logos... but I have wondered for a while now why every translation seems to just pick one or the other.

I also think that there should be a theology discussion category in these forums and these types of topics should be discussed more frequently. We have great tools in Logos and we can sharpen each other by encouraging individual study and group discussion. Proverbs 27:17

My Library | Romans 8:1 - There is therefore now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus.

Posts 10832
Forum MVP
Jack Caviness | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Nov 10 2010 4:31 AM

Sam McCloud:
also think that there should be a theology discussion category in these forums and these types of topics should be discussed more frequently. We have great tools in Logos and we can sharpen each other by encouraging individual study and group discussion. Proverbs 27:17

I would also like to see that. Unfortunately, we seem to have a few "Hobby-Horse Theologians" in these forums who must think their mission in life is to "correct" the theology of anyone who does no walk in lock-step with them. In accomplishing this mission, they tend to rapidly become abusive and insulting. This tendency takes away any benefit of such a forum.

Posts 47
Sam McCloud | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Nov 10 2010 12:07 PM

Jack Caviness:
I would also like to see that. Unfortunately, we seem to have a few "Hobby-Horse Theologians" in these forums who must think their mission in life is to "correct" the theology of anyone who does no walk in lock-step with them. In accomplishing this mission, they tend to rapidly become abusive and insulting. This tendency takes away any benefit of such a forum.

     I understand completely what you mean but I for one would be willing to overlook some abusive posts if I had the opportunity to discuss theology with at least some sane, rational, godly people. Everyone is entitled to their opinion (whether or not it is entirely accurate) and the real world includes hateful individuals along with people who are more reasonable but that does not excuse us from going out into the world and doing God's work. If all the discussion resulted in anyone coming to a better understanding of the truth then it would be worth enduring the angry, argumentative, insulting posts to some degree. I don't see why forum MVPs couldn't be given the opportunity to do some moderation possibly, not to moderate according to their beliefs but they could report abusive individuals or report abusive posts. Eventually you could weed out to some degree the habitually belligerent people.  Discussion is such a helpful, necessary thing to provide encouragement  and stimulation of the mind and to promote a more zealous pursuit of the truth. I just think that when being confronted with a difficult situation and giving up because of the problem is allowing evil to triumph and we are supposed to be firmly against that.  Also, the more thinly skinned people might decide to not participate if nothing else.      

On top of all this theological discussions are already occurring I don't see why there couldn't be a designated category for them.

My Library | Romans 8:1 - There is therefore now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus.

Posts 1674
Paul N | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Nov 10 2010 12:53 PM

A few too many theologians would be excellent chess players; they've got all their moves memorized.

Posts 611
Graham Owen | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Nov 10 2010 1:32 PM

Sam McCloud:
Discussion is such a helpful, necessary thing to provide encouragement  and stimulation of the mind and to promote a more zealous pursuit of the truth.

I agree and and if we can combine that with developing skills and techniques that help us to use Logos to pursue truth then there would be some real benefits. The thread about how to use the SBL to identify textual variants has made me even more aware of how powerful Logos is and how little I know about using it!

God Bless

Graham

Pastor - NTCOG Basingstoke

Posts 47
Sam McCloud | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Nov 10 2010 2:29 PM

Paul Newsome:

A few too many theologians would be excellent chess players; they've got all their moves memorized.

     That's exactly why I don't want to just "memorize moves" without pursuing a more complete understanding of God. It is too easy sometimes to approach Biblical study from a completely scholarly perspective and that perspective is of course absolutely necessary and important but it can't be done apart from guidance from the Holy Spirit and it should be done solely for the purpose of drawing closer to God and for drawing his people closer together under Him, not for the sake of arguing and proving who knows more about such and such doctrine and the correct interpretation of this verse or that verse and so forth and so on. There are no denominations ultimately (as far as God is concerned) and there isn't a different God for every theological perspective. It's just Him and His people, and those who end up in outer darkness. We shouldn't feel alienated from each other, we are all Christians. I love other Christians and I seek to fellowship with them as Christ intended. Theological discussion should always be for the purpose of drawing people together not dividing them.

     This is why I enjoy discussion, because someone sometime will make a point that I hadn't considered before, or point out a fact that I had never been exposed to. That point or fact will usually make me want to do research and discover all that I can about it. Then I will inadvertently stumble on one or more other truths along the way. We all need inspiration at times and we are supposed to at least try to encourage one another. I refuse to believe that there aren't more people on these forums who feel the same way about this. I personally have a strong desire for fellowship and I desire that  fellowship to be centered in God's Word. What better place to find such fellowship than on a forum that exists to support users of a program which has the primary function of Bible study? Some may say, "well Logos is software and the forum is for the software not the Bible study".... I would say to that, the life of the software is the Bible study and the life of the Bible study is God in the people who are using the software to do the Bible study. I think there is huge opportunity here to push more life into this forum through encouragement of Bible study approached with an attitude of brotherly love and with an ultimate focus on Christ.

We aren't just customers of a software company, we are Christian brothers and sisters.

My Library | Romans 8:1 - There is therefore now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus.

Posts 10832
Forum MVP
Jack Caviness | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Nov 11 2010 2:30 AM

Sam McCloud:
I don't see why forum MVPs couldn't be given the opportunity to do some moderation possibly, not to moderate according to their beliefs but they could report abusive individuals or report abusive posts.

Unfortunately, the star under a person's avatar seems to incite anger in some posters, and some attempts at moderation by MVPs have actually escalated abusive remarks. I personally would not want to become a forum moderator.

Posts 611
Graham Owen | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Nov 11 2010 3:19 AM

Sam McCloud:
It is too easy sometimes to approach Biblical study from a completely scholarly perspective and that perspective is of course absolutely necessary and important but it can't be done apart from guidance from the Holy Spirit

This is a great observation I believe one of the challenges of our age is that scholarly equates to scientific,  science dismisses the supernatural and the Holy Spirit is supernatural. This has caused a divide in Christian Scholarship and it seems that some of today's Bible Scholars are focused on having a 'scientific approach' in order to be accepted by Scholars in other Disciplines. We do need to remember that prayer and the guidance of the Holy Spirit are as much a part of studying the Bible as a knowledge of Hebrew or Greek Grammar.

Sam McCloud:
Some may say, "well Logos is software and the forum is for the software not the Bible study"

I think this is sometimes seen as the easy way to stop a discussion that has lost its way. This is a difficult area though as I think that it is often the less Logos focused threads that inspire me to use Logos to answer the question or explore an issue. It also seems to be a fact of forums that a rivalry will develop between specific individuals and that this will cloud and destroy certain discussions.

As a question for consideration, I wonder how often we fail to come back to the forum with an interesting search or reference to a resource or a visual filter i.e. do we come back with the fish or do we come back and teach others to fish. Just a thought but maybe in the heat of the debate an effort could be made not only to educate each other in the finer points of Theology but also to teach each other how to use Logos.

God Bless

Graham

Pastor - NTCOG Basingstoke

Posts 10832
Forum MVP
Jack Caviness | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Nov 11 2010 4:49 AM

Graham Owen:

Sam McCloud:
It is too easy sometimes to approach Biblical study from a completely scholarly perspective and that perspective is of course absolutely necessary and important but it can't be done apart from guidance from the Holy Spirit

We do need to remember that prayer and the guidance of the Holy Spirit are as much a part of studying the Bible as a knowledge of Hebrew or Greek Grammar.

A superb observation

Graham Owen:
Just a thought but maybe in the heat of the debate an effort could be made not only to educate each other in the finer points of Theology but also to teach each other how to use Logos.

That could even keep an errant thread within forum guidelines.

Posts 10832
Forum MVP
Jack Caviness | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Nov 11 2010 4:52 AM

Sam McCloud:
We aren't just customers of a software company, we are Christian brothers and sisters.

Sam, I just wanted to tell you I appreciate your comments in this thread. You have made it both enjoyable and enlightening.

Posts 19273
Rosie Perera | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Nov 11 2010 11:36 AM

Sam McCloud:
I don't see why forum MVPs couldn't be given the opportunity to do some moderation possibly, not to moderate according to their beliefs but they could report abusive individuals or report abusive posts. Eventually you could weed out to some degree the habitually belligerent people.

MVPs can and do report threads and posters who have become abusive to Logos. Some threads have been locked in the past when they really got out of hand, and some posts have been deleted. But in general Logos prefers not to censor anyone (except obvious spammers and actual libel -- which by the way I've never seen here). They've publicized the guidelines and they trust us to stay within them generally, and at least not to be ugly to each other when we meander into theological discussions occasionally. I have been edified by some of the discussions and I wish we could have a specific place on the forum for them.

It is awkward being an MVP when a thread moves into the area of personal attacks, because if we speak up and remind people of the forum guidelines, we often get accused of shutting things down only because the theology expressed differs from our own, or of being able to get away with things ourselves that other forum participants can't. I personally have decided not to invoke the "guidelines" anymore because it never seems to be helpful. If something isn't abusive, I let it go, and if it's abusive, I let Logos deal with it.

By the way, we have not been given the explicit role by Logos as forum moderators. We are only supposed to keep posting as we normally would have before receiving the MVP designation. It simply means Logos has recognized that we tend to enjoy answering people's questions about the software, and our advice tends to be helpful. If we slip up and say or do things that are not in keeping with Christian behavior on a public forum, please be gentle with us. Remind us of the guidelines if you must, but do so with love and forgiveness. We are only human too. It is a great privilege and blessing being able to participate in these forums with all of you brothers and sisters, such an amazing community.

Posts 8660
TCBlack | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Nov 11 2010 12:03 PM

Rosie Perera:
By the way, we have not been given the explicit role by Logos as forum moderators. We are only supposed to keep posting as we normally would have before receiving the MVP designation. It simply means Logos has recognized that we tend to enjoy answering people's questions about the software, and our advice tends to be helpful. If we slip up and say or do things that are not in keeping with Christian behavior on a public forum, please be gentle with us. Remind us of the guidelines if you must, but do so with love and forgiveness. We are only human too. It is a great privilege and blessing being able to participate in these forums with all of you brothers and sisters, such an amazing community.

I know it doesn't be know it doesn't belong there; but I'm awefully tempted to put this paragraph on Logos Speaks under the heading: What's an MVP?  

Well said Rosie!

 

Hmm Sarcasm is my love language. Obviously I love you. 

Posts 1680
Jerry M | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Nov 11 2010 1:43 PM

Rosie Perera:
if we speak up and remind people of the forum guidelines, we often get accused of shutting things down

Yes, and it reminds me of 1 Cor 4:12-13   When we are reviled, we bless".  I for one appreciate you and all the help I have gotten from MVP's.  I view it as a legitimate ministry to the body of Christ. 

"For the kingdom of God does not consist in words but in power"      Wiki Table of Contents

Posts 4625
RIP
Milford Charles Murray | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Nov 12 2010 2:02 PM

Sam McCloud:

Paul Newsome:

A few too many theologians would be excellent chess players; they've got all their moves memorized.

     That's exactly why I don't want to just "memorize moves" without pursuing a more complete understanding of God. It is too easy sometimes to approach Biblical study from a completely scholarly perspective and that perspective is of course absolutely necessary and important but it can't be done apart from guidance from the Holy Spirit and it should be done solely for the purpose of drawing closer to God and for drawing his people closer together under Him, not for the sake of arguing and proving who knows more about such and such doctrine and the correct interpretation of this verse or that verse and so forth and so on. There are no denominations ultimately (as far as God is concerned) and there isn't a different God for every theological perspective. It's just Him and His people, and those who end up in outer darkness. We shouldn't feel alienated from each other, we are all Christians. I love other Christians and I seek to fellowship with them as Christ intended. Theological discussion should always be for the purpose of drawing people together not dividing them.

     This is why I enjoy discussion, because someone sometime will make a point that I hadn't considered before, or point out a fact that I had never been exposed to. That point or fact will usually make me want to do research and discover all that I can about it. Then I will inadvertently stumble on one or more other truths along the way. We all need inspiration at times and we are supposed to at least try to encourage one another. I refuse to believe that there aren't more people on these forums who feel the same way about this. I personally have a strong desire for fellowship and I desire that  fellowship to be centered in God's Word. What better place to find such fellowship than on a forum that exists to support users of a program which has the primary function of Bible study? Some may say, "well Logos is software and the forum is for the software not the Bible study".... I would say to that, the life of the software is the Bible study and the life of the Bible study is God in the people who are using the software to do the Bible study. I think there is huge opportunity here to push more life into this forum through encouragement of Bible study approached with an attitude of brotherly love and with an ultimate focus on Christ.

We aren't just customers of a software company, we are Christian brothers and sisters.

Samuel!

Peace to you!                And !    Always Joy!

I am truly grateful for such a well-written post.  You echo my sentiments exactly.  We should be able - with great respect for one another - be able, indeed,  to discuss various matters !!!

Hoping to see a Forum one of these days on General Forum Discussion!

*smile*

Blessings!

Philippians 4:  4 Rejoice in the Lord always; again I will say, Rejoice. 5 Let your reasonableness be known to everyone. The Lord is at hand..........

Posts 171
Abi Gail | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Nov 12 2010 3:32 PM

Milford Charles Murray:
Hoping to see a Forum one of these days on General Forum Discussion!

                                                                                                      "I Second That Emotion" Big Smile

~

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