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This post has 149 Replies | 3 Followers

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Patrick S. | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Dec 16 2010 12:42 PM

Jack Caviness:

I have accordance (not to mention many other Mac programs i.e. Word, Excel, Powerpoint, Pages, Numbers, Keynote, Final Cut Pro, Motion, Soundtrack Pro, which are all fairly big programs)

Not one of these applications—including Accordance—is anywhere near as complex as L4. 

Hmmm — think you're on shaky ground there with that statement Jack. I think some of those apps will definitely be (much) more complex — programming wise — than L4. What L4M is doing with reading data and indexing multiple resources is difficult, but we can't make blanket statements that it's more sophisticated than something like Final Cut Pro.

I do agree with you though that Rich does appear to be speaking out of frustration.

"I want to know all God's thoughts; the rest are just details." - Albert Einstein

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Keep Smiling 4 Jesus :) | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Dec 16 2010 2:30 PM

Patrick S.:
It would be good for people to have a quantitative basis for comparison of their Macs — the Geekbench utility is not bad (only doesn't  do HDD performance) and there is a free version

Personally Thankful for usable, unfinished software with impressive improvements over past year Big Smile

Also cognizant faster hardware improves Logos 4 performance - reading rumors about iMac and MacBook Pro updates in 1st half of 2011 (along with iPad 2).

OWC benchmark shows SSD transfer speed improvements => http://eshop.macsales.com/shop/turnkey/iMac_2010_27/benchmarks/

Likewise Thankful for many usage tips from Wiki, forum posts and blogs - e.g. closing some sections in Passage Guide (or creating custom guide without some sections).

Keep Smiling Smile

Posts 103
Simon | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Dec 16 2010 9:19 PM

My two cents worth...

This is getting ridiculous. I loaded up L4M and twice in 2 minutes had to "force quit" the app because it went into no-user land. CPU usage out the roof.

Right now I feel ANY sort of performance would be good. Best of luck to the rest of you but I need to get real work done and L4M is NOT cutting it. Waste of time, waste of money...

Are my emotions running high, you bet. In hind sight I should have stuck with my hard copy library. Actually cheaper, more reliable, no software bugs in the user interface, no false ongoing promises or apologies, no document conversion errors or entire missing pages etc. etc. and the constant list of people running to defend the actions of LOGOS itself has me puzzled. Why is this? Business is business and those companies that can't cut it in a competitive world die out.

I really do want LOGOS to succeed! The concept is great! But it's not original and Amazon, Sony and a host of other companies are out there right now at the door when in comes to the types of things LOGOS is attempting to do in the very competitive book reading market. If LOGOS can't get these stability issues sorted out real quickly, my guess is in the next 6-18 months, they will be taken out of the game by the competition due to a long list of disgruntled customers and new more stable competing products from said companies appearing in the market place.

Blessings to you all for this festive Christian season. I'm forever grateful Christ was born, suffered, died and rose again for me but the import of it all will take me all of eternity to appreciate.

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Keep Smiling 4 Jesus :) | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Dec 16 2010 11:31 PM

S Mack:
...no-user land. CPU usage out the roof.

Apologies - months ago experienced issues opening last used layout - personally choose to open Home Page then select layout from menu (if click Layouts menu before closing, last layout snapshot updated).

Wonder about usability if launch to blank layout => http://wiki.logos.com/Mac_Troubleshooting#Launch_to_Home_Page_or_Layout_not_working

Likewise wonder if logs have any intriguing messages => http://wiki.logos.com/Mac_Troubleshooting#How_to_Report_Bugs_in_Logos_4_Mac

S Mack:
...Waste of time, waste of money...

Suggest contacting Logos customer support - ask for a refund.

Other possibility is using Logos 4 in Windows - Thankful for licensing that allows a library use on many electronic devices.

S Mack:
... very competitive book reading market.

Pondering Logos 4 capabilities vis book readers - looking forward to expanding digital library with lemma study across languages (especially greek, hebrew, and aramaic), parallel resources, and linked scrolling of commentaries & bibles.  Currently not anticipating greek septuagint with hebrew reverse interlinear from book reader competition (especially with grammatical parsing and pop-up dictionary meanings).  Logos 4 is much more than a book reader.

Keep Smiling Smile

Posts 219
Dennis Miller | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Dec 17 2010 4:10 AM

I'm with you. I looked at Accordance again the other day and to make the jump now would just be to expensive to equal the investment and resources I already have in Logos. This is my second go around trying to use a logos Mac product and after a year of Alpha development patience and then hoping everything would be fixed at the gold release launch date only to find out it's still in development is getting a little frustrating. I have to say I would hope Accordance is a great product for what they charge to own it. It appears to me to be an outrageously expensive program to purchase add-on's for also.

Posts 566
Bob Deacon | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Dec 17 2010 4:39 AM

I actually own both.I purchased Logos years ago as a PC user and used it extensively. I still like Logos but after a year of beta's and half cooked releases I must report that I am very disappointed. I tried Accordance less than a year ago and although it took a while to "warm up" to its interface it is an excellent product. It is fast and stable and you can try it free for a short time to check it out. They also have ways to switch at a reduced rate and minsters discounts. As I said, I have BOTH and I like BOTH but when I begin to study I do not have time to work around numerous issues. I am sure in time Logos will regain its footing but for now it does not compare with the speed and stability of Accordance.

Bob Deacon

Surface Pro 6

MacBook Air (2017) Big Sur

Ipad Air 2 (ios 9.7 (0014)

Samsung A50 (9.7 907000152)

Posts 19
Rich | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Dec 17 2010 7:34 AM


I'm not sure what you are getting all emotional about.  Logos is a business out to make money.  Their product (Mac version) is in pretty bad shape.   Have you read the posts on this thread?  Everyone knows it and has stated so.  It is a fact beyond dispute.  As a customer I'm not interested in excuses.  I want and expect a good product.  If the product is that bad, it shouldn't have been put up for sale.

I'm not sure what being a programmer has to do with it.  If you buy a car, and it runs like a big piece of junk, can you not say it's a piece of junk and whoever designed and produced it did a horrible job without being a mechanical design engineer who designs cars?  Every customer of a product is the judge of a product.  The customer is the only one qualified to judge whether or not a product is good or bad.  But to ease your mind, I'm am a Mechanical Engineer who designs fuel systems (Injectors to be specific) for diesel engines.  The company I work for is multi-billion dollar company, and I can tell you know if I could not do the job then I would be fired and they would hire someone who could.  That is how business works.  Are you telling me if you owned a company and the employee you hired to do a specific job couldn't do it you would just keep paying him for producing bad product costing the company money out of some sense of sympathy?  And to ease your mind a bit further, as an engineer, I do perform my good share of programming.  Not for the Mac, as I'm forced to use Windoze because my main pieces of software that I use daily (Pro/Engineer [now called Creo], Ansys Workbench, and some proprietary software developed by my company only run on Windoze), but mostly just VBA to create macros to analyze data in Excel.

I also hate to inform you but Logos is nowhere near the complexity of programs such as Motion, which is part of an entire suite of pretty hefty programs.  Maybe you should spend some time here http://www.apple.com/finalcutstudio/motion/ and get informed before making such a declaration (excuse for Logos).

It is possible to program programs that run fast on the Mac.  There are hundreds of them out there.  You sound as if to expect a program to run fast is not reasonable.  Do you really want to pay a bunch of money for a product that runs the way Logos does?  Are you really happy with its performance?  

With all that aside, as I stated, I like Logos.  I think it's the best approach to Bible Software on the market.  But, the performance is killing it.  Logos needs to hire some Mac programmers (perhaps they should make some offers to some from Accordance's) who know how to develop for the Mac.  Just about anyone can learn to program, but to program in a manner that produces "clean" code that runs efficiently is a different story (this is half of Microsoft's problem).  I have the feeling, based on using their product, their programmers are not the type who excel at producing/designing efficient code, or designing the proper method of implementation.  Or, maybe they do, and the program just wasn't ready for sale.  As a design engineer, I understand development time.  We (a team of about 50 engineers) spend upwards of 4 years and several millions of dollars tuning a fuel system before we put it on the market (thank's to the EPA and the emission levels they dictate).  We redesign and tweak all the time to fix issues.  but until it is ready, we certainly are not going to put in on engines an sell it. Beside the reputation damage it would do, it would end up costing millions in warranty claims.  To bad software companies don't have to pay warranty claims, it just might force to them to produce a better product.

Anyway, that is my opinion.  It's nothing personal.  Like I said, it's a business (otherwise they would be a non for profit company) who is out to make money, and as such they should be held accountable for their product.


Posts 56
Seth Huckstead | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Dec 17 2010 8:14 AM

I do hope that Bob is reading this. I love Logos for the resources it offers, but it is getting increasingly frustrating to work with the program itself. I know that they have been reticent about giving us a roadmap for the program, but we want to know how the optimization is progressing. 

What bone can you give us as a customer? A full refund? An upgrade to a better library? A guarantee of a fix? 

We wonder if we are being heard as customers of this product. Without feedback and concrete solutions (i.e an optimized program) we feel left behind. I will not switch platforms and I really don't want to go back to Accordance (its interface is frustratingly old and their prices exorbitant). However, if Logos does not fix this soon I am going to have to switch in order to be functional. I don't have the money to upgrade to an SSD, purchase a screaming desktop, or add another 4gb of RAM.  

Posts 45
WAM Project | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Dec 17 2010 9:00 AM

Jumping in myself.


I used the wndows version last week and was in love with the speed.

But the MAC version??? HORRIBLE!!!!! Scrolling like a snail. The major features are in here. Stop adding features and tune for speed. I do a search on windows version INSIDE parallels and it is lickity split. I do it on mac and the program hangs for 1 or 2 minutes then has the audacity to give me so LYIGN time saying it took 10 seconds to do the search. PLEASE!!!!!!


Time to speed up this app.


Like the one user siad. FCP or Motion (which mainly requires a fast video card) are FAST apps. FileMaker DATABASE program which is what Logos is, is uber fast...


FIX THE SPEED then add new features.

No excuse for this snail speed MONTHS after you went Release....

Posts 1
Tommy Tapscott | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Dec 17 2010 9:33 AM


I agree with you on the poor performance, I wish I had never purchased this expensive non-functioning product.  I am going to encourage everyone I can to not buy it.  It is a frustrating mess.  Give me a book any day over this!!!

Posts 219
Dennis Miller | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Dec 17 2010 9:53 AM

Man, I'm starting to feel sorry for all those Logos Mac programmers because I know they're working their tail off to get this up to par with it's windows sister but I hope they understand the frustration of us users who have been very patient and waiting for all the promises to come true.

Posts 8899
fgh | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Dec 17 2010 9:54 AM


I believe you are being very unfair to the wrong people here. I know nothing about programming, but the impression I have gotten is that the Mac developers are more than capable. It's their boss who has chosen to release an unfinished product. He seems to have this idea that as soon as something is even remotely possible to use, it shall be out the door, even if it's full of holes and has the speed of a snail. Mending and optimization can take place later. And most people on this forum seem to agree with him. Like you, I don't, but don't blame the developers for their boss' policy decisions. Imagine yourself in their shoes: being constantly swamped with complaints, and even called incompetent, because you haven't done what you haven't yet had a chance to do (or have been explicitly told to postpone). 

As for hiring, Logos has been advertising for developers a long time (http://www.logos.com/about/careers), but have problems finding people qualified enough. 

"The Christian way of life isn't so much an assignment to be performed, as a gift to be received."  Wilfrid Stinissen

Mac Pro OS 10.9.

Posts 8899
fgh | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Dec 17 2010 9:58 AM

Tommy Tapscott:
I wish I had never purchased this expensive non-functioning product.

Contact Logos, and you will almost certainly get your money back.

"The Christian way of life isn't so much an assignment to be performed, as a gift to be received."  Wilfrid Stinissen

Mac Pro OS 10.9.

Posts 2565
Forum MVP
John Fidel | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Dec 17 2010 10:01 AM

Hi Tommy,

Have you contacted support regarding your problems? I know you have not posted your issues here since this is your first post. If you want help let us know your problems. If you want your money back, then call Logos customer service. If you just want to vent then....

Posts 631
Randall Cue | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Dec 17 2010 10:12 AM

I have L4 on both a pc (HP Pavilion dv7-1130us) laptop with 4 gigs of ram running Windows Vista 64 Home Premium,and an iMac with 4 gigs of ram and an intel i3 core processor. I have not experienced the problems with speed mentioned by others in this thread. In fact, my Mac runs the program significantly faster than my pc. Am I pleased with Logos 4 Mac? Generally, yes. I just with it had all of the functionality of the Windows version. I had never owned a Mac until just about a moth ago. So far, so good. I pray that all of you who are having issues get them resolve to your satisfaction.

Soli Deo Gloria,


Posts 5318
Dan Francis | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Dec 17 2010 11:06 AM

I am at a loss to peoples complaints here. 

1) To use the car analogy  the engineers were told to take this good Gas car and reengineer it to run diesel, yes it is possible but it's going to take work to get it running smoothly, and if you insist the spark plugs have to stay in place (read .net framework). It's going to be more complex and difficult.

2) Performance is barely an issue for me after start up, I just opened a random resource and  scrolled it as fast as i could and it was perfectly smooth. I do have an i7 macbook pro, but it's not that fast a machine.

3) People say Parallels and Logos don't like each other... I usually have 12 applications running at once including Par 6, sheephaver to run a couple older mac apps and sometimes even sims 3. I have never known Logos to perform better, even if it is the only application running.  When I do searches of the entire library they happen as fast in Logos as in accordance and the Library in Logos MIGHT be slightly larger, but they are at least of a similar size.

4) I will agree with anyone who says there are bugs and that it was a premature release, but  as people have said over and over call and get you money back. Logos may have forced it out the door a bit early but for most people I bet it is working well. Logos tries to make it;s costumers happy. I bought some items a few months ago and turned out they really were not what i was looking for. Logos credited them back to me without problem, and these were 3 expensive items combined over $1800 (admittedly a Logos sales person talked me into the one item). Logos is happy to revoke your licences and give you your money back in a reasonable amount of time (I would halfway guess even though it's been approaching 90 days since mac release, you should be able to request a refund).

5) Logos is a business as it has been pointed out many times, yes they are responsible for releasing a product not 100% done but if you look on the issues page you will see items on the Windows side not working too, software is not like a car or a toaster. It rarely comes out  being a perfectly serviceable item in every way. Mac OS has updates to correct errors as does windows and most other applications. Continuing on the fact Logos is a business, I would guess the software was 95% running normally on October 1st. I am sure getting it out there for the fall semester of students (albeit a bit late) and for pastoral appreciation month was something they really wanted to have happen, let alone risking missing the Christmas season. 

We can complain about Logos and we have that right but even if we have similar wrk experiences we do not have Logos mac programers ones. I do not know if there are better mac programers out there (most likely there are, there is almost always someone better out there, none of us are Jesus, and very few people attain close to an imitation of our Master). I have been told that every post in this forum is read by the mac development team, and while it might be a kick in the butt for them to do better it seems to me to be more a crushing blow to their spirits. THEY DO NOT NEED THAT. 

Please request a refund if you are completely unhappy. Do report any and all problems so they can work on them, but basically calling them incompetent and in need of replacing is not only unbefitting a follower of Jesus, but also perhaps the most short sighted suggestion you can have. These people have been working hard for many months, they fix items fairly quickly and obviously know at minimal how everything works and how to fix the bugs. You toss in a dozen knew programers unfamiliar with the code and issues, I would guess you would set the mac development back months for a new team to get all settled in and know whats going on.





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Jack Caviness | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Dec 17 2010 12:06 PM

I'm not sure what you are getting all emotional about.

I was not being emotional. However, I felt that your attack on the programmers was uncalled for. Perhaps I should have noted there that the present state of L4 Mac (and Win) is the direct result of Bob Pritchett's programming philosophy which has been mentioned several times on these forums: "Code first; optimize later." Since he is the CEO, the programmers must follow his guidelines or become unemployed.

I apologize that my response sounded emotional and gave the impression that I was attacking you. I should have noted Bob P's philosophy earlier. I believe Logos has a very competent group of Mac programmers who have devoted their own personal time to this project. Tom Philpot and Cameron Walters have responded to posts late into the evening and on weekends.

You sound as if to expect a program to run fast is not reasonable.

No, that is not unreasonable. 

Are you really happy with its performance?  

No. But then, I was expecting L4 Mac for Christmas 2006. so I have been watching this application for a long time, and I see vast improvement. I guess when I look at where it has been it looks much better to me that just seeing it as it is now.

Posts 56
Seth Huckstead | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Dec 17 2010 12:15 PM


Many of us have been using this program for over a year, waiting expectantly for a usable program, anticipating that once it went through the Alpha an Beta process, we wouldn't be having these performance issues. Thus, how can we expect a full refund (unless I am mistaken). 

I don't think it is un-christian to express our disappointment with the product or to call in question the capabilities of the individuals who write the program. For my part I have found the Mac team wonderful and quick to respond to problems. However, though we have quick response in some cases, it does not answer the question concerning the performance issues that are apparent.

We are customers and we have given money for this product and we can expect those we paid, especially Christians, to give us an ear and answer to the issues this program is exhibiting. There are times (too many to count) that the program is unworkable. If I could get my money back, I just might abandon Logos. After a year of waiting we expected a finish product. I love the resources and the program (in theory), but if I cannot consistently get it to work, it behooves me to find another product so I can best do my job. Right now, it appears to be Accordance. Further, it does not appear that Logos will soon have a product that works with the speed we anticipated, that is, unless, we can get an update on the product roadmap. 

Posts 5318
Dan Francis | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Dec 17 2010 1:47 PM

Having been an alpha and beta tester, I know how frustrating it is to have something bug free.

All i meant is NO SOFTWARE is ever 100% bug free.

I have agreed with all who have said the Mac program was released prematurely but I do understand Logos wanting to get the product out.

I by all means think you have a right to a refund.

I meant to inform people that Logos had chose a path that meant the product would be out sooner than later but also meant there would be some built in performance issues. 

I have what in the end is a very middle of the road computer, fast for a Macbook but the i7 imac is faster and I have not experienced many of these issues. Speed starting up and initial passage guide are slow but compared to the pre release product seem acceptable.

To say someone should be fired because the product is not what you expected seems harsh when you realize that programming it from scratch would have required years (suggested at one point  up to 10 years to duplicate logos 10 years of coding). To convert over the coding requiring them to use an emulation layer is not the fault of the programers. They did what they were instructed too. And as some people have pointed out in a different thread Logos on their mac is working faster than on their windows machine. 

If Logos is not what you expected by all means request, demand a refund. If it isn't working properly and others are having no issue, something maybe wrong on your computer (it may be a bad logos file, it may be a fragmented disk, it may be a bad directory file or permissions file). I fully understand the frustration, but don't people attacked for doing their job, even if it's not up to the standards you expect, they are doing it to the standard Logos expects or they would be gone.


Posts 5318
Dan Francis | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Dec 17 2010 1:56 PM

PS: For those who have been using it for over a year, if you are not happy with the release maybe Logos customer service can help you. But I also do know that Logos has constantly said they want a mac program equal to their PC one as soon as the programers get it done. Now it is officially released you do have the right to complain but you were not promised a time line with Logos 4.

PPS:Libronix 1.2.2 works great which is what you would have actually bought one year ago.

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