Theological Question

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Jesse Blevins | Forum Activity | Posted: Thu, Dec 16 2010 10:00 PM

I recently purchased the words of light and life dogmatic theology collection. The author is teaching something about christ existing as a man before his incarnation as the son of man. Can anyone please clarify this for me?

Posts 1547
Blair Laird | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Dec 16 2010 10:03 PM

Pastor Jesse Blevins :

I recently purchased the words of light and life dogmatic theology collection. The author is teaching something about christ existing as a man before his incarnation as the son of man. Can anyone please clarify this for me?

Could you please reference the section that you read that in?

Posts 611
Jesse Blevins | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Dec 16 2010 10:19 PM

it is in volume two, chapter two.

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Matthew C Jones | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Dec 16 2010 10:21 PM

Pastor Jesse Blevins :
Can anyone please clarify this for me?

It all depends which occurrence they may be referring to. Was it in the Garden of Eden, walking in the cool of the evening? Or perhaps they were saying Melchizedek was Jesus?  Genesis 14:18-20 , Wiki also has an article on the Melchisedechians.

Logos 7 Collectors Edition

Posts 611
Jesse Blevins | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Dec 16 2010 10:31 PM

he is teaching that it was from his eternal generation that he was a glorified man.

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Silent Sam | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Dec 16 2010 11:43 PM

                                                                           Hmm HHHMMMmmm~~~ Hmm

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Abi Gail | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Dec 16 2010 11:58 PM

Does the resource offer any Scriptural evidence for such a theory? 

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Jerry M | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Dec 17 2010 5:36 AM

Wouldn't the question be, was Jesus the Son of God before the incarnation?   He is not denying His eternal deity, but saying that by nature He was and is and is evermore the revelation of God to us (i.e. in a form we can relate to).  (I hope I am not putting words in the author's mouth)

"For the kingdom of God does not consist in words but in power"      Wiki Table of Contents

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David Ames | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Dec 17 2010 6:35 AM

Pastor Jesse Blevins asked

""The author is teaching something about Christ existing as a man before his incarnation as the son of man. Can anyone please clarify this for me? ""

""it is in volume two, chapter two. ""

2 CHRIST AS GOD-MAN

This duality mentioned regarding Christ, is elaborated upon in statements like the following: He is the Son of David, but He is also the Lord of David (Matt 22:41–45). He is the Son of God (Matt 16:16), but also the Son of man (Matt 8:20; 9:6; 25:13). He is the only-begotten Son of God (John 3:16), but also the Son of Joseph and Mary (Matt. 1:16. John 1:45).   vol. 2, The Wonderful Christ and the Meaning of Humanness (Christology and Anthropology), Words of light and life

Is that the section you are asking about??

Posts 611
Jesse Blevins | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Dec 17 2010 6:50 AM

Christ has always been the only way, truth and life through which we can go to God (John 14:6). There was never a time when He was not. And if He had always been the way, the truth, and the life, it follows that He always also had to be the God-man, and not only during the last days of human history.

 

Moller, F. P. (1998). Vol. 2: The wonderful Christ and the meaning of humanness (Christology and anthropology). Words of light and life. Pretoria: Van Schaik Religious Books.

Posts 611
Jesse Blevins | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Dec 17 2010 6:54 AM

The Bible not only says that everything came into existence through the Word (Son of God), but that everything was created unto Him and that He maintains it all (Joh 1:3; Col 1:16, 17). This relationship between God and creation through Christ being also man, exists from the beginning of creation. Therefore, Christ becoming man could not have taken place only long after creation and in these last days of human time.

In Colossians 2:9 we read that in Him, i.e. in Christ, dwells all the fulness of the God-head bodily (sômatikôs). If this pronouncement is valid only for these last days when Christ appeared in the flesh, and according to the Council of Chalcedon only then received a body, we must accept that the fulness of the God-head did not previously dwell in Christ, but that there must have existed a different relationship between Him and the Father. No, we must rather believe that the fulness of the God-head dwelled bodily in Christ since all eternity in Christ. It is only through Christ that we as believers will become complete, sharing in that which is divine. In Colossians 2:10 it is stated: “… and you are complete in Him, who is the head of all principality and power”.

 

 

Moller, F. P. (1998). Vol. 2: The wonderful Christ and the meaning of humanness (Christology and anthropology). Words of light and life. Pretoria: Van Schaik Religious Books.

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Wes Saad | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Dec 17 2010 6:56 AM

Pastor Jesse Blevins :

Christ has always been the only way, truth and life through which we can go to God (John 14:6). There was never a time when He was not. And if He had always been the way, the truth, and the life, it follows that He always also had to be the God-man, and not only during the last days of human history.

Moller, F. P. (1998). Vol. 2: The wonderful Christ and the meaning of humanness (Christology and anthropology). Words of light and life. Pretoria: Van Schaik Religious Books.

That would be problematic.

Posts 611
Jesse Blevins | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Dec 17 2010 6:58 AM

The fact that he was since all eternity also Man, i.e. having creature form, should be seen as basis for his incarnation and why He could completely identify with man as creature. After all, man was created in the image of the Son of God, which constitutes a direct link between humanity and Christ.

 

Moller, F. P. (1998). Vol. 2: The wonderful Christ and the meaning of humanness (Christology and anthropology). Words of light and life. Pretoria: Van Schaik Religious Books.

Posts 611
Jesse Blevins | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Dec 17 2010 7:04 AM

If Christ only became man with his birth of Mary, and was not God-Man since all eternity, what was He before this event? If He were then just God, in what respect did He differ from God the Father, and if He was only spirit, in what respect did He then differ from the Holy Spirit? If He was only Word (Logos) and not the Son of God, what was He, besides just the word or speech of God? In John 1:14 it is after all plainly said that the Word is the same as the Firstborn, coming from God the Father, i.e. the Son of God. If “Son of God” only came into being during our human time, how then must we contemplate the eternal Trinity?

 

Moller, F. P. (1998). Vol. 2: The wonderful Christ and the meaning of humanness (Christology and anthropology). Words of light and life. Pretoria: Van Schaik Religious Books.

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Rich DeRuiter | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Dec 17 2010 7:06 AM

Pastor Jesse Blevins :

it is in volume two, chapter two.

Are you sure you don't mean Chapter 1 part 2 (Christ as God-Man), and following (especially Chapter 1 parts 3 & 4)? Check with the Locator bar and/or the Contents panel ("Show table of Contents) to confirm.

This quote (from Chapter 1 part 4.14) seems to summarize his point:

Therefore, we repeatedly say that the fact that Christ identify Himself with the fallen and transient humanity through being born of a woman and after which He suffered and died in the flesh, is not a denial of the fact that He is the God-Man since all eternity. The fact that he was since all eternity also Man, i.e. having creature form, should be seen as basis for his incarnation and why He could completely identify with man as creature.

F. P. Moller, vol. 2, The Wonderful Christ and the Meaning of Humanness (Christology and Anthropology), Words of light and life (Pretoria: Van Schaik Religious Books, 1998).

He is making a very unique claim her. By 'very unique claim' I mean this view is not held by others whose views are considered orthodox. At least, I've never heard this claim before.

 Help links: WIKI;  Logos 6 FAQ. (Phil. 2:14, NIV)

Posts 611
Jesse Blevins | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Dec 17 2010 7:07 AM

Hopefully these excerpts give you some insight into my question. I have been a lifetime student of the bible and theology. Perhaps his teaching comes the closest to what the Mormons believe about God. 

Any other thoughts? Explanations? 

Posts 171
Abi Gail | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Dec 17 2010 7:19 AM

Richard DeRuiter:
He is making a very unique claim her. By 'very unique claim' I mean this view is not held by others whose views are considered orthodox. At least, I've never heard this claim before.

And to answer my own question...No he doesn't have Scriptural evidence for such a theory. 

One might be wise to consider the criticism of Dr. Moller, written by members of his own denomination. This should eliminate the argument that it is a witch hunt.

http://www.pctii.org/cyberj/cyberj16/clark.html

http://www.contenderministries.org/mormonism/godchrist.php

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Posts 611
Jesse Blevins | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Dec 17 2010 7:57 AM

Does anyone out there believe that Logos should be responsible for at least not making any books available with such clear heretical teaching such as this one?

I thought that I was purchasing a sound, biblical, study of dogmatic theology from a pentecostal perspective. I was very happy when I purchased this set during the 12 days of Christmas special - now I feel like a kid with a broken toy just a view days after receiving it.

Hopefully this post will keep others from purchasing this set in the future. I personally would like to see it pulled in my humble opinion. 

Posts 171
Abi Gail | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Dec 17 2010 8:07 AM

Pastor Jesse Blevins :
Does anyone out there believe that Logos should be responsible for at least not making any books available with such clear heretical teaching such as this one?

Heresy is in the eye of the beholder. For the record, my eye sees it as you do. However, I doubt Logos will take on the responsibility of policing the content of resources. I do believe that if you contact customer service and state your case, you will be issued a refund.

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Posts 5625
Todd Phillips | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Dec 17 2010 8:08 AM

Pastor Jesse Blevins :
Does anyone out there believe that Logos should be responsible for at least not making any books available with such clear heretical teaching such as this one?

No.  I don't think Logos should be responsible for making sure that books align with a certain theological persuasion.  Who would be the authority?  And what happens when their standard excludes books you want?  I want to be able to read and search books I disagree with to better understand opposing arguments and make my own beliefs better defined.

 

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