Theological Question

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Donnie Hale | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Dec 17 2010 8:21 AM

Pastor Jesse Blevins :

I recently purchased the words of light and life dogmatic theology collection. The author is teaching something about christ existing as a man before his incarnation as the son of man. Can anyone please clarify this for me?

I would think Philippians 2:5 - 8 would settle the issue (from the NASB95):

5      Have this attitude in yourselves which was also in Christ Jesus,
6      who, although He existed in the form of God, did not regard equality with God a thing to be grasped,
7      but emptied Himself, taking the form of a bond-servant, and being made in the likeness of men.
8      Being found in appearance as a man, He humbled Himself by becoming obedient to the point of death, even death on a cross.

At some point in eternity past, He existed as God. He gave up that equality with God to take the form of a man.

Certainly Christ is the Lord in the Old Testament who appeared on earth on numerous occasions. But it wasn't in the form of a man as when he was virgin born. Think about this question: If He existed as a man in eternity past, was it a full-grown man? Did He reverse age to become an infant?

My $.02 ...

Donnie

 

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Jesse Blevins | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Dec 17 2010 8:23 AM

Todd, I see your point. I like to read broadly and to understand other viewpoints all across the theological perspective (liberal to conservative) but this work clearly delves into heresy without any warning of what is coming. 

Again, I must state that I thought that I was purchasing an Orthodox study of Pentecostal theology. If I knew that it was not orthodox I would not have purchased it.

The fact that he has such a heretical view in his Christology makes me suspect that this heretical view will also have an effect on all of his theology, especially since he says in the preface that his aim was for it be a a dogmatic study strictly from a Christological perspective. His Christology is heretical so that makes me believe that his teaching on the other branches of theology such as ecclesiology, soteriology, anthropology, will also be affected.

I post this in peace my brother. Thanks to everyone out there for the help. I just want to post this for any others that may think of purchasing this collection in the future. I did a search on it before I bought it and could not find anything out there about it, not even on google.     

 

Posts 171
Abi Gail | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Dec 17 2010 8:29 AM

Todd Phillips:
I want to be able to read and search books I disagree with to better understand opposing arguments and make my own beliefs better defined.

I agree...to a point. If the writer can offer a sliver of Biblical evidence for the theory they are putting forth, There can be a fruitful discussion. If it is sheer speculation, I don't have time for it. 2 Peter 1:20

~

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Robert Pavich | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Dec 17 2010 8:29 AM

Todd Phillips:

No.  I don't think Logos should be responsible for making sure that books align with a certain theological persuasion.  Who would be the authority?  And what happens when their standard excludes books you want?  I want to be able to read and search books I disagree with to better understand opposing arguments and make my own beliefs better defined.

 

Pastor Jesse, I too struggled with this idea a year ago....but I"ve come to agree with Todd....

Robert Pavich

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Todd Phillips | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Dec 17 2010 8:42 AM

Abi Gail:

Todd Phillips:
I want to be able to read and search books I disagree with to better understand opposing arguments and make my own beliefs better defined.

I agree...to a point. If the writer can offer a sliver of Biblical evidence for the theory they are putting forth, There can be a fruitful discussion. If it is sheer speculation, I don't have time for it. 2 Peter 1:20

Surely, I agree. (To a point...even speculation must first be determined to actually be speculation--one has to read it first).  But that was only one of my reasons for not wanting Logos to become the arbiter of good and bad books.

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Abi Gail | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Dec 17 2010 8:43 AM

Donnie Hale:
Did He reverse age to become an infant?

He is fully capable of that. The bigger question is, Why would He? His 30-some years in human form were for a very specific reason. If one Could believe that He had always been human, the impact of His sacrifice would be reduced to almost nil.

I Digress. Smile

~

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Matthew C Jones | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Dec 17 2010 9:05 AM

Pastor Jesse Blevins :
I thought that I was purchasing a sound, biblical, study of dogmatic theology from a pentecostal perspective. I was very happy when I purchased this set during the 12 days of Christmas special - now I feel like a kid with a broken toy just a view days after receiving it.

Here is some good news for you: You can get a refund from Logos.  Just give Customer Service a call.

Pastor Jesse Blevins :
Hopefully this post will keep others from purchasing this set in the future. I personally would like to see it pulled in my humble opinion.

Here is some bad news for you:  Logos will not start pulling titles from their product line when a few users object to their availability. There are many different perspectives in the theological world and I personally find a large portion of them heretical. Others would brand some of my beliefs off-base or heretical. The best two things you can do for others as a Pastor is 1) Preach the truth  and  2) Warn then that men can and will be wrong, sometimes very wrong.

Pastor Jesse Blevins :
Does anyone out there believe that Logos should be responsible for at least not making any books available with such clear heretical teaching such as this one?

There have been a few passionate threads where posters wanted Logos to have some kind of theological screening before bringing a resource to publication. First I don't think Logos has the manpower and ability to read everything they are publishing and evaluate the content. Logos probably assumes if there is a lot of requests for a certain author those making the requests are aware of some value in the work. The very fact this thread exists shows it is sometimes hard to pin down a man's theology even whilst reading it.

Logos is not attempting to tell us what to think. For that I am happy.

  Devil   Have you noticed I did not use possibly divisive issues like  Predestination/Free Will? Speaking in Tongues? Reality of Hell? Universal Salvation? Catholicism/Protestantism/Orthodoxy/Fundamentalism? Pre-/Post-/A-Millennialism? Rapture? Tribulation?  Angry    (you see why) Wink

 

 

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Rich DeRuiter | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Dec 17 2010 10:53 AM

Abi Gail:

Richard DeRuiter:
He is making a very unique claim her. By 'very unique claim' I mean this view is not held by others whose views are considered orthodox. At least, I've never heard this claim before.

And to answer my own question...No he doesn't have Scriptural evidence for such a theory. 

Then you didn't read the section. He does claim Scriptural evidence, and goes through a series of Scriptures to support his claim. It's an intriguing study. Ultimately, his logic and interpretive skills fail to substantiate his conclusions, but the both the arguments and their refutation turn on some subtle points (IMHO).

Abi Gail:

One might be wise to consider the criticism of Dr. Moller, written by members of his own denomination. This should eliminate the argument that it is a witch hunt.

http://www.pctii.org/cyberj/cyberj16/clark.html

http://www.contenderministries.org/mormonism/godchrist.php

Neither of these sites take on Moller's arguments. The first discuss some problems during Moller's tenure as leader in his denomination but I don't see where this doctrine is discussed. The second has nothing at all to do with Moller's teaching, or his denomination. Perhaps you copied down an incorrect URL?

 

 Help links: WIKI;  Logos 6 FAQ. (Phil. 2:14, NIV)

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Rich DeRuiter | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Dec 17 2010 10:59 AM

Donnie Hale:

I would think Philippians 2:5 - 8 would settle the issue (from the NASB95):

5      Have this attitude in yourselves which was also in Christ Jesus,
6      who, although He existed in the form of God, did not regard equality with God a thing to be grasped,
7      but emptied Himself, taking the form of a bond-servant, and being made in the likeness of men.
8      Being found in appearance as a man, He humbled Himself by becoming obedient to the point of death, even death on a cross.

At some point in eternity past, He existed as God. He gave up that equality with God to take the form of a man.

Moller actually does take up this passage (Chapter 1 part 4.5) and argues that it shows that Jesus was the God-man before the incarnation, since the act of emptying cannot include adding something new (humanity).

NOTE: I'm not defending his point of view. I think he's clearly wrong. However, if you want to take this on, it would be wise to read his arguments first.

 Help links: WIKI;  Logos 6 FAQ. (Phil. 2:14, NIV)

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Rich DeRuiter | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Dec 17 2010 11:08 AM

Pastor Jesse Blevins :
Again, I must state that I thought that I was purchasing an Orthodox study of Pentecostal theology. If I knew that it was not orthodox I would not have purchased it.

I read this in the Logos web page on this resource: ". . . I concede that even Pentecostals will find some of the things I wrote to be strange to what they used to believe." And so, I took this to be, at least in some respects, a unique perspective, not fully representative of Pentecostals, nor Pentecostal theology. (For something more representative I'd suggest Foundations of Pentecostal Theology.)

As others have suggested. If you're not satisfied, contact Logos and request a refund.

 Help links: WIKI;  Logos 6 FAQ. (Phil. 2:14, NIV)

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Abi Gail | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Dec 17 2010 11:42 AM

Richard DeRuiter:

Abi Gail:

Richard DeRuiter:
He is making a very unique claim her. By 'very unique claim' I mean this view is not held by others whose views are considered orthodox. At least, I've never heard this claim before.

And to answer my own question...No he doesn't have Scriptural evidence for such a theory. 

Then you didn't read the section. He does claim Scriptural evidence, and goes through a series of Scriptures to support his claim. It's an intriguing study. Ultimately, his logic and interpretive skills fail to substantiate his conclusions, but the both the arguments and their refutation turn on some subtle points (IMHO).

Abi Gail:

One might be wise to consider the criticism of Dr. Moller, written by members of his own denomination. This should eliminate the argument that it is a witch hunt.

http://www.pctii.org/cyberj/cyberj16/clark.html

http://www.contenderministries.org/mormonism/godchrist.php

Neither of these sites take on Moller's arguments. The first discuss some problems during Moller's tenure as leader in his denomination but I don't see where this doctrine is discussed. The second has nothing at all to do with Moller's teaching, or his denomination. Perhaps you copied down an incorrect URL?

 

You are entitled to your opinion, even when it's wrong. Stick out tongue I did read the section. I fear you didn't read what I wrote carefully. I said he does not "have" Scriptural evidence. You countered that he "claims" Scriptural evidence. There is a big difference in what one has, and what one claims to have.

The first link addresses the radical nature of the movement as a whole, and Dr. Moller in particular. Matt 7:20

The second addresses a question Pastor Blevins asked.

Pastor Jesse Blevins :

Perhaps his teaching comes the closest to what the Mormons believe about God. 

Any other thoughts? Explanations? 

 

~

Posts 611
Graham Owen | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Dec 17 2010 12:00 PM

Pastor Jesse Blevins :
Does anyone out there believe that Logos should be responsible for at least not making any books available with such clear heretical teaching such as this one?

Personally I think Logos should publish a wide variety of materials which means that by definition they will be publishing material than many of us consider heretical. We need to have the same range of materials available in Logos that are available in paper IMHO availability in paper is a bigger threat to the average believer than a book being in Logos.

God Bless

Graham

Pastor - NTCOG Basingstoke

Posts 611
Graham Owen | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Dec 17 2010 12:14 PM

Pastor Jesse Blevins :
Again, I must state that I thought that I was purchasing an Orthodox study of Pentecostal theology. If I knew that it was not orthodox I would not have purchased it.

I guess the question is did you expect this to be Orthodox because it was in Logos or were your expectations set by other sources? Based on some research that I did on Moller I am not surprised that he has some unorthodox views he certainly has been engaged in a number of controversies. 

God Bless

Graham

Pastor - NTCOG Basingstoke

Posts 611
Graham Owen | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Dec 17 2010 12:17 PM

Richard DeRuiter:
(For something more representative I'd suggest Foundations of Pentecostal Theology.)

I agree that this is a good representation of Pentecostal Theology.

God Bless

Graham

Pastor - NTCOG Basingstoke

Posts 325
Rene Atchley | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Dec 17 2010 12:36 PM

Its always kind of fun to read about this heretic or that heretic on a web site that seems geared toward a solid Evangelical audience which on a bad day is radically moderate and on a good day fundamentalist in their product selection.  I wonder how many buyers would faint if Tillich or Suchocki or Bultmann were to appear as stand alone items for sale...Sad

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Jack Caviness | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Dec 17 2010 12:52 PM

Graham Owen:

Richard DeRuiter:
(For something more representative I'd suggest Foundations of Pentecostal Theology.)

I agree that this is a good representation of Pentecostal Theology.

I just discovered that I already have this resource and have marked it to be read soon. Having been trained as a cessationist, I would be interested in seeing the arguments of someone who disagrees. I do find at least one of the main cessationist argument to be rather weak.

Rene Atchley:
Its always kind of fun to read about this heretic or that heretic on a web site that seems geared toward a solid Evangelical audience which on a bad day is radically moderate and on a good day fundamentalist in their product selection.  I wonder how many buyers would faint if Tillich or Suchocki or Bultmann were to appear as stand alone items for sale...

I would not faint or even be shocked, but I would probably pass. 

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Bohuslav Wojnar | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Dec 17 2010 1:00 PM

Jack Caviness:
I do find at least one of the main cessationist argument to be rather weak.

YesIdea Smile

Bohuslav

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Matthew C Jones | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Dec 17 2010 1:06 PM

Rene Atchley:
I wonder how many buyers would faint if Tillich

I've been asking for Tillich for a long time. I rather enjoy reading from a wider variety of sources, not because I believe every one of them (They contradict each other all the time and sometimes contradict themselves. Big Smile )

But I want to read titles that are at least moderately representative of some type of scholarship. I don't think every clown on the block should be printed just because their view is different from every one else's.  If they did that I would write a systematic theology for broccoli Surprise

true story: My father-in-law was a pilot. A friend of mine tried to charter a flight to the North Pole with him. It seems my friend really believes the Earth is hollow and Shangrila is accessible through a hole in the North Pole. My father-in-law did not want to be in a plane with at 6000 ft altitude with a guy who was not grounded in reality. Some "heretics" I will tolerate, stupid broccoli theologians, I will not.

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Jack Caviness | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Dec 17 2010 1:10 PM

Bohuslav Wojnar:

Jack Caviness:
I do find at least one of the main cessationist argument to be rather weak.

YesIdea Smile

I KNEW I should have left that line out of my post! Geeked You are elated, but I may be lynched by fellow IFBs (Independent Fundamental Baptists).

Posts 325
Rene Atchley | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Dec 17 2010 1:17 PM

It maybe a while before Tillich appears Matthew...several more 18th centuy public domain items to publish...lol.  The point being that what one theologians sees as heresy depends on where they stand and when they stand.  Many mainstream theologians from the 20 and 21st century are simply not part of the Logos collection and are not even part of the conversation such as the one in this thread.  Heresy in the Christian tradition is real but its just kind of fun sometimes just to see what gets folks upset in cyberspace. 

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